Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Sonikko]

33 minutes ago, CrystalStorm51 said:

Just wait and see, alright? If we get two or more levels shown with the same thing, you'll have more valid reason to complain.

And I didn't say the physics would change. I was only talking about the layout of the stages.

Still, if you were talking physics more than layout, my bad, I guess.

Physics and layout cannot be discerned, one is the direct conseguence of the other. So yeah, the layouts will surely get more complicated, I totally agree with that. But if they don't have the tools (the physics) to build some interesting level design, then all we're going to get is automated slopes and loops, s tunnels variations, teleports, and all that stuff mixed with some blocky platforming ala Colours/Lost World which is far from what a 2D Sonic experience should be imho.

If you have a good physics sytem in place there's no need for automation. Making the parts of the level in which the character interacts with slopes and such automated strips away the core mechanics of 2D Sonic gameplay, so it's a big issue for me. 

Also, I'm not trying to come off rude, I'm trying to express my point of view while making constructive criticism and showing direct examples. I'd just like to point that out!

[Shiny Gems]

Just now, Sonikko said:

Physics and layout cannot be discerned, one is the direct conseguence of the other. So yeah, the layouts will surely get more complicated, I totally agree with that. But if they don't have the tools (the physics) to build some interesting level design, then all we're going to get is automated slopes and loops, s tunnels variations, teleports, and all that stuff mixed with some blocky platforming ala Colours/Lost World which is far from what a 2D Sonic experience should be imho.

Also, I'm not trying to come off rude, I'm trying to express my point of view while making constructive criticism and showing direct examples. I'd just like to point that out!

You do have a point there. I am not bothered by automation, but obviously, I can't speak for everyone.

And don't worry. We're cool.

[StaticMania]

Not being bothered by automation is one thing. But you can at least acknowledge when there's too much of it in a stage or when it's used unnecessarily for things that don't need it.

 

That's bad no matter how you look at it.

[Shiny Gems]

2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Not being bothered by automation is one thing. But you can at least acknowledge when there's too much of it in a stage or when it's used unnecessarily for things that don't need it.

 

That's bad no matter how you look at it.

I think I understand what you are saying. It is hard to go through boost pads every 3-5 seconds and be alright with it. There is the jumping over it thing, but what if you don't want to? Yeah, some boost pads are rather unnecessary. I wonder if I should be more concerned about this?

[Sonikko]

2 minutes ago, CrystalStorm51 said:

I think I understand what you are saying. It is hard to go through boost pads every 3-5 seconds and be alright with it. There is the jumping over it thing, but what if you don't want to? Yeah, some boost pads are rather unnecessary. I wonder if I should be more concerned about this?

You should not force yourself to be concerned about something. If it's something that bothers you and takes away from your enjoyment of the game, then sure, you should be concerned about it. If you understand it's a flaw, but it doesn't bother you in the slightest way, then no, you shouldn't be concerned about it. You're free to have your own opinion, as we all do here.

[Shiny Gems]

Just now, Sonikko said:

You should not force yourself to be concerned about something. If it's something that bothers you and takes away from your enjoyment with the game, then sure, you should be concerned about it. If you understand it's a flaw, but it doesn't bother you in the slightest way, then no, you shouldn't be concerned about it. You're free to have your own opinion, as we all do here.

Okay then. Thanks, Sonikko.

Man, E3 can't come soon enough. I really want to see the new third playable character.

[Kintor]

6 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

There's almost a kind of solidarity around here with the way that so many people disappointed in this game. So many people just seem to share the opinion that it's an underwhelming game in a number of ways, and it's nice to see that fairly universal response. It's always nicer to have a Generations or Mania situation on our hands where everyone is cheering, but unlike S4 or Boom there's not really a lot of hate going on for Forces. It's just one collective sigh. We're all disappointed together.

Making regular posts like this to reinforce your own cynicism towards Sonic Forces isn't going to create a universal response. That didn't work at the at the reveal trailer, as hype for Sonic Forces built. Nor did it work with the surprise reveal of the classic Sonic stage, at best you managed get 2 hours of 'solidarity' before more people logged on and the forum returned to normal. If anything I suppose it's telling that you now have to settle for a vague consensus of 'disappointment' over stronger emotions like outright loathing or even hate. There is a lot to like about Sonic Forces as a return to form for the Sonic franchise, perhaps as the extra E3 hype builds you'll move your consensus towards 'mildly annoyed' or even 'begrudging respect'.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

46 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Making regular posts like this to reinforce your own cynicism towards Sonic Forces isn't going to create a universal response. That didn't work at the at the reveal trailer, as hype for Sonic Forces built. Nor did it work with the surprise reveal of the classic Sonic stage, at best you managed get 2 hours of 'solidarity' before more people logged on and the forum returned to normal. If anything I suppose it's telling that you now have to settle for a vague consensus of 'disappointment' over stronger emotions like outright loathing or even hate. There is a lot to like about Sonic Forces as a return to form for the Sonic franchise, perhaps as the extra E3 hype builds you'll move your consensus towards 'mildly annoyed' or even 'begrudging respect'.

You're assuming that Blue Blood's "desired" stance is outright loathing and that calling it a disappointment is a concession or something. From what I know from his posts, I don't think this is an accurate assumption. For what it's worth, I think BB's assessment seems pretty accurate both to his own views and most (not all, of course) forum members who have expressed an opinion about the game, so I don't get you trying to spin it into something it's not. Or maybe you're saying that people being "disappointed" in the game is an accomplishment because at least they don't hate it - I don't get it either way. 

[Kintor]

5 minutes ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

You're assuming that Blue Blood's "desired" stance is outright loathing and that calling it a disappointment is a concession or something. From what I know from his posts, I don't think this is an accurate assumption. For what it's worth, I think BB's assessment seems pretty accurate both to his own views and most (not all, of course) forum members who have expressed an opinion about the game, so I don't get you trying to spin it into something it's not. Or maybe you're saying that people being "disappointed" in the game is an accomplishment because at least they don't hate it - I don't get it either way. 

I'm just saying that this idea of a middle ground is something of an alien concept to the Sonic fanbase. We don't do 'solidarity' or 'universal response'; it's either 'go crazy' or 'run the other faction out of town'. So to say that everyone has arrived at the consensus of disappointed, presumably the middle ground between hatred and love, seems wholly artificial to me. It's unsustainable and only held in balance by the relative lack of information you get in the lead-up to the release of a major new Sonic game. As more becomes known about Sonic Forces, as hype for the game continues to build towards E3, a consensus of disappointment is going to look all the more fleeting.

[StaticMania]

Stay positive, mang. The idea that people will get more or less disappointed by whatever Sonic Forces has to show is an assumption on everyone's part.

[Chris Knopps]

Hmm...

The whole thing with critics and the Sonic franchise was brought up a little bit ago, I've got a bit to add to that.

Given the general sales of the franchise and general reception during the time SEGA has paid the most attention, seemingly, to critics over consumers, it would be nice if SEGA is finally reaching the mindset of "hold up, what critics want sucks, this is hurting us here" and instead focus on a consumer first strategy.

What is the general audience saying about a game? What does the general audience like and hate about a game?

These are the key questions if you ask me. The focus isn't, or rather shouldn't be "what do the critics like? what are the critics saying?" but instead the vast majority.

Focusing so strongly on critics which amounts to a handful of people with their own opinions at best does not seem like a great target at all for the franchise. Because when all you do is cater to and attempt to please a handful of folks over your consumers as a general whole which amount to the millions...

I feel if SEGA were to abandon critics in favor of your average general consumers we'd definitely see more of a Mania/CD/S3&K centric kind of franchise in regards to 2D titles and more of an SA/SA2 type of franchise when it comes to 3D.

Multiple Characters would pretty be a standard for both types of games, the whole plot/tone/depth focus would alter greatly, the general designs of games from stage concepts to layouts would change, and...

I do believe alternate playstyles for other characters would be a general norm, as fitting or not to ones opinion, they were executed fairly well back in the day. Maybe not perfect and/or suitable in a Sonic game to some, but there has to be something about it that clicked with consumers and sucked up folks cash right out of their pockets.

Most of the franchise today seems to revolve what clicks with critics, consumers be, pardon the language, essentially damned, so...

Perhaps both Mania and Forces will be the start of this mindset where critics are nothing more than folks chatting in a corner about yay's and nay's about a game while the key focus is solely on consumer reception and sales.

[Blue Blood]

3 hours ago, Kintor said:

Making regular posts like this to reinforce your own cynicism towards Sonic Forces isn't going to create a universal response. That didn't work at the at the reveal trailer, as hype for Sonic Forces built. Nor did it work with the surprise reveal of the classic Sonic stage, at best you managed get 2 hours of 'solidarity' before more people logged on and the forum returned to normal. If anything I suppose it's telling that you now have to settle for a vague consensus of 'disappointment' over stronger emotions like outright loathing or even hate. There is a lot to like about Sonic Forces as a return to form for the Sonic franchise, perhaps as the extra E3 hype builds you'll move your consensus towards 'mildly annoyed' or even 'begrudging respect'.

The only 'motive' behind my post was to share a an observation that I found somewhat humorous. There's no attempt to "reinforce my own cynicism" or to coerce others into sharing my viewpoint. As you can see, my activity in this thread has diminished considerably over the past couple of days; I'm happier to watch the discussion go by at the moment than I am to actually take part in it. My patience is wearing thin and it's actually interesting to hear what people are saying without constantly putting my own cards on the table. There is no drive to create a universal opinion - there is no settling for "vague disappointment" after what I can only assume you perceive as some kind of failing hate campaign against Forces. Once again, you're talking compete and utter nonsense. 

Kintor, please stop. I'm truthfully bored, tired and totally fed up of this. The constant accusation of being this pathetic person, this horrible fan even, with nothing better to do than trying to smear a Sonic game of all things is actually a little hurtful. The only reason that any of us are on this board is because we're all Sonic fans and want to talk about something that we all love. I'm not going to attempt to police any input to discussions, but I believe that by now we should both be able to see that talking to each other directly, at least where Sonic Forces is concerned, is a relatively fruitless endeavour. If nothing else it's evidently playing on the nerves of other people. Let's just keep it to PMs for a little while if you want to talk to me, and spare everyone else the bother of muddying up this thread further in doing so. 

[Kintor]

9 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

The only 'motive' behind my post was to share a an observation that I found somewhat humorous. There's no attempt to "reinforce my own cynicism" or to coerce others into sharing my viewpoint. As you can see, my activity in this thread has diminished considerably over the past couple of days; I'm happier to watch the discussion go by at the moment than I am to actually take part in it. My patience is wearing thin and it's actually interesting to hear what people are saying without constantly putting my own cards on the table. There is no drive to create a universal opinion - there is no settling for "vague disappointment" after what I can only assume you perceive as some kind of failing hate campaign against Forces. Once again, you're talking compete and utter nonsense. 

Kintor, please stop. I'm truthfully bored, tired and totally fed up of this. I'm not going to attempt to police any input to discussions, but I believe that by now we should both be able to see that talking to each other directly, at least where Sonic Forces is concerned, is a relatively fruitless endeavour. If nothing else it's evidently playing on the nerves of other people. Let's just keep it to PMs for a little while if you want to talk to me, and spare everyone else the bother of muddying up this thread further in doing so. 

I'm sorry to hear that you've been exhausted by these discussions. I can't say that the Sonic Forces thread has had the same effect of me, I'd much rather speculate about new levels and story themes but if we're going to be talking about raw gameplay mechanics then I'm happy to show the same tireless energy. So try as I might I don't really see this thread ending up in a state of 'let's all agree to disagree', the passions of the Sonic fanbase aren't something that can be controlled or stopped only merely directed towards one end or another. Still, I acknowledge that you're not finding anything productive from our ongoing discussions, in the future I will be more considerate before I think about replying to one of your posts.

[BlueFlare]

Hey chaps, we forgot even Sonic 3 has reputation for automated gameplay:

 

[StaticMania]

Yeah, that Blast Processing sure was amazing. So much processing to ensure that Sonic wouldn't fall off and die by going so fast.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

2 hours ago, Kintor said:

I'm just saying that this idea of a middle ground is something of an alien concept to the Sonic fanbase. We don't do 'solidarity' or 'universal response'; it's either 'go crazy' or 'run the other faction out of town'. So to say that everyone has arrived at the consensus of disappointed, presumably the middle ground between hatred and love, seems wholly artificial to me. It's unsustainable and only held in balance by the relative lack of information you get in the lead-up to the release of a major new Sonic game. As more becomes known about Sonic Forces, as hype for the game continues to build towards E3, a consensus of disappointment is going to look all the more fleeting.

Well yeah, I think it's a given that the Sonic fanbase is never gonna be in COMPLETE agreement, so Blue Blood's post could be classified as hyperbole, I guess, but I see nothing wrong with just assessing the general mood of people's reactions to something. It's not gonna be perfect, but it doesn't have to be. It just seems really nitpicky to complain about it.

[Waveshocker Sigma]

11 minutes ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

It just seems really nitpicky to complain about it.

To be fair, we're Sonic fans. It's kinda what we do and what we're infamously known for. ¦D

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think, in all fairness, we should stop doing that if that's what we're so infamous for.

Wishful thinking, I know. But still...

[Waveshocker Sigma]

4 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

I think, in all fairness, we should stop doing that if that's what we're so infamous for.

Wishful thinking, I know. But still...

Oh, I agree 100%. It's always been the most ridiculous thing about this fanbase and this entire thread kinda shows a lot of it.

[Detective Kaito]

I don't know why, but I die a little inside when I remember that the white wisps will be Sonic's Boost fuel in Forces.

[Blue Blood]

4 minutes ago, Detective Kaito said:

I don't know why, but I die a little inside when I remember that the white wisps will be Sonic's Boost fuel in Forces.

I guess it's an attempt at nerfing the boost. The only boost game so far where Sonic ever runs out of energy is Colours. But that doesn't exactly promise better level design. If anything, it just means the game further forces this idea of arbitrarily separated fast sections and platforming sections, as though the two can't coincide more naturally. That's a guess considering what we've seen, but a reasonable one considering previous games. 

And although the Wisps were a big part of Colours' identity as a game, Sonic Team has yet to even attempt to mesh them with Sonic ethos of any kind, be that Classic, Boost or anything inbetween. The story has yet to even be properly handwaved. Is a short-lived and F2P mobile game meant to be the only source of an explanation?. They're a mess of gameplay and plot that persist only because Colours wasn't slated. I sincerely hope that the White Wisps are the only Wisps in Forces.

[StaticMania]

An attempt at nerfing the boost and then slowing the game down to manageable speeds...

 

Still having level design suitable for the Boost game-play...complimentary...unlike Colors.

 

They'll never explain the wisps though, they'll never explain that some wisps decided to live on "Sonic's World" and ended up captured by Eggman again, because that's the only way they can be in those capsules.

[JosepHenry]

Speaking of level design, something that made me a tiiiiiiiiny bit hopeful for a more open level design was this screenshot:

Sonic could be able to enter between buildings and find goods or even a spring to launch you to the rooftop...

 

 

BUT of course I didn't eliminate the possiblity of Sonic NOT EVEN BEING ALLOWED TO MOVE LEFT OR RIGHT in this part. If that's the case then:

[JezMM]

To hell with it, I'm curious so I made a poll.

Would you describe yourself as disappointed with Sonic Forces with what is known of it so far?

Obviously it's going to be a pretty odd voter sample but guests reading the thread and people off the boards are welcome to vote too if anyone wants to share it with other non-SSMB friends.  Let's see what it's doing after 50 votes or so.  I've enabled IP checking but obviously it's not difficult to get around that so I just respectfully ask everyone be fair and not cheat the results.  I wanna know the real answer, not the one that most aligns with my own.  You can check the results so far any time you like here.

[Blue Blood]

That should be fun and interesting. I'd like to see how people vote, especially if this gets shared to places beyond SSMB. By the time it's hit 50 votes though, there'll probably be at least a single someone who wants to ruin the fun.

And I voted for the most disappointed option, as if that wasn't easy enough to guess. Some parts of the game may turn out to be really pleasing in the end, and we're still waiting on this mystery third playable character. But considering what we do know about the all-encompassing design and engine, I can't see that not being disappointing at best. The engine is wrong and the philosophy is wrong - the entire game is wrong.