Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Zippo]

All I have to add to this is, THANK FUCKING GOODNESS for Sonic Mania. I get a stupid smile on my face every time I think about that fucking game and how much love and care is going into it. I can't and don't even want to imagine a world in where Forces is the only game we get this year. 

[Sonikko]

LONG POST WARNING

Regarding Utopia:

That demo was meant to showcase the way Sonic should move in a 3D space, the creator said so in an interview on Sonic Retro, he also said that the levels actually in the game will be different and more focused. GHZ was meant as a playground to learn how Sonic moves in Utopia, to experiment and find your own route, to play with the physics, which is the essence of the classic games. He went as far as saying that they decided to use GHZ because it was a physics playground in Sonic 1 too and it taught you how to move, so it does in Utopia.

Regarding the music:

I saw Ohtani answer lots of tweets about the music in the last couple of days, he's active on Twitter, if you're unhappy about the way the classic soudntrack sounds, maybe you could tell him in a polite and critic way? Saying stuff like "man this sucks" is not going to help your cause. I also don't know how much spamming the guy on twitter is going to help.

I think that if we're unhappy with what we're being shown, we should make it clear. Automation has been going on for far too long, Sonic in 3D can work as long as some thought is put behind the level design and the game design in general. I wouldn't go as far as saying that the team behind the games is lazy, given the Japanese work schedule. I'm sure they work their asses off, it's just that they focus on the wrong things.

We should tell them that we (or most of us at least) don't care about the game looking cool, we want it to be fun and to actually play it. Some spectacle going on here and there is ok, it can work, but you can't build a whole game out of it. We also need less padding, or at least make the slower gameplay actually fun to play. If it's going to be Classic Sonic, get the physics and level design up to par.

It's the first time I'm disappointed and not hyped for a Sonic game. I have been a fan for as long as I remember, I'm 22 now. I went through 2006 hype and crash, Unleashed (who remembers Camp Sonic here? I used to check that every few hours, the hype was crazy) and what came after (I didn't care about Boom in the first place, but that's a spin off serie, so it was never meant for us Sonic fans).

What they did with 2006, Unleashed, Colours and Generations showed that at least they were trying. Despite the result they were trying to push the franchise forward in some way, even if that meant settling on the boost formula. Each entry brought something new to the table. Was 2006 a bad game? Sure, it had many design flaws and it needed more time, but was it trying new things? Yes!

Unleashed, or at least half of it, was the best Sonic had ever been in 3D. Was it automated? Yeah, but it was NEW, it looked great, it was fast, it had QTE to keep you entertained during the automated sections, it was fun overall. 

Then Colours came. I'm not a fan of that game, but it has its strenghts. The 3D sections were bad, very linear and basically all of them were completely automated, or just a quickstep section. The 2D sections were just blocky platforming, and I felt like that didn't mix well with the way Sonic played. I think the level design was not meant for the boost gameplay, the character felt imprecise and hard to master (not in a good way). But many liked it (I hated the Wisps).

Generations was a breath of fresh air. Modern Sonic getting good 3D levels, still mixed with 2D sections, but the 3D ones were now good. You were actually playing the game (not all the time, sure, but still more than Unleashed and Colours). Classic levels were ok, they didn't play anything like the Classic games, but they got a pass since they tried to make it work with an engine that wasn't meant for that kind of gameplay. More on this later.

Lost World was an experiment, I liked it for what it was. I get the criticism about the level design and overall tone of the game and music, but if you didn't go into it expecting a boost formula game, then it's fairly enjoyable. It's level design was built around the idea of not keeping momentun though, and that happened because of the gravity system they had in place, the tubular level design etc.. Most of the level were just flat planes curved on themselves, but let's give them a free pass on that.

 

Now Forces. The game we've waited 4 years for. 4 years during which we got 3 Sonic Boom games, and only one of them is a barely decent experience. 

What is Forces trying to do? Is it trying something new? 

We don't know yet, we haven't seen the whole game, we don't know about the third character so we don't have a definitive answer to that.

But they have shown us something, and we're supposed to build our opinion on what they've shown us, right? If they gave us a gameplay video, it means that they're confident about it generating hype and getting us excited about a PRODUCT they're SELLING us.

Let's start with the Modern Sonic gameplay first.

Modern Sonic is shown while running around in a city under attack, with giant robots in the backgrounds and missiles exploding. "Wow that looks cool" is what I thought when I first saw the gameplay, during the panel show. Then I noticed how many boostpads were there, in a straight hallway without anything else going on. Sure, it's a 30 seconds footage of the first level, so what? First levels have been like that for the last 5 games. Is it bad? Does that mean the entire modern portion of the game is going to be bad? 

The answer to that is no, we don't have enough element to analyze that. Chances are the modern portion of the game is going to be good, like Generations was (even if I'm a little worried about how stiff Sonic looks, it looks closer to how he moved in Colours, so...).

The classic section however, is what really got me upset. Let's describe what was shown us first and then get into detail.
We have GHZ for the nth time, it looks a little different because water is replaced by sand.

But it's not just about GHZ showing up for the 100th time. It's about the design philosophy this level has shown us. They tried making Classic Sonic work in Generations, it was not perfect, not 1:1 with the classic games, but it was an attempt.

Classic Sonic in Forces, however, is just thrown out there, they realized that it would never be a carbon copy of the classic games, nevermind an improvement of them, so they just gave up. It's not even an attempt at making a good classic game anymore, it's something totally different.

And I would've been ok with it if that something totally different was actually good, since we're getting a proper classic Sonic game this year anyway.

The level design is bad. Too much automation, blocky generic platforming, sections of the original GHZ level just copied without understanding the thought process that was put behind them.  

My question is, who is this game supposed to target? I don't get it. It's surely not for classic fans, since the classic portion plays nothing like a classic game.

It's not totally for modern fans, since the modern sections make up for 1/3rd of the game, and we don't know yet the new character appearance or abilities.

It's not for adventure fans, tone aside, (based on what we know so far), since none of the two characters shown resemble the adventure gameplay.

They should've done something new, mind you, I don't mean ditching the boost formula, or the classic gameplay, but they should've at least taken them somewhere new, polish them and keep building on what they had, not strip them down.

You can do something new and improve what you have, withouth ditching your previous work like Lost World did.

Should I be excited about this if I already know that I won't be enjoying at least 1/3rd of the game, while the modern part is most likely going to play itself and who knows about the new character?

Sorry about the long rant. tl/dr I think Sonic Team should strive to better themselves, and not just let go.

[blazefan519]

29 minutes ago, Zippo said:

All I have to add to this is, THANK FUCKING GOODNESS for Sonic Mania. I get a stupid smile on my face every time I think about that fucking game and how much love and care is going into it. I can't and don't even want to imagine a world in where Forces is the only game we get this year. 

Must be nice. As someone who doesn't really care about Mania, Forces is the only thing I have that interests me.

[Radiant Hero Ike]

I'm kind of the opposite. I do want to play Mania, but if it were the only Sonic game this year, I'd be a little disappointed. I look at that Modern Sonic image of him on the grind rail, and it just makes me happy. I grew up with Modern Sonic and it makes me feel nostalgic. Reminds me of the time leading up to Unleashed back when I was 11.

[HedgehogBR]

The original music is good, but they have to change the instruments like this guy did.

[Waveshocker Sigma]

Someone needs to give Forces Green Hill's track the same treatment that Splash Hill got in this arrangement here. Seriously.

Edit: The above post that was done at the same time as mine is also good. Heck, I don't get why they couldn't just make the track the same way they did the Classic themes from Generations from the Adventure and Modern Eras.

[blazefan519]

1 minute ago, HedgehogBR said:

The original music is good, but they have to change the instruments like this guy did.

Yeah, the actual melody is fine. The instrumentation is what's off.

[Sonikko]

2 minutes ago, HedgehogBR said:

The original music is good, but they have to change the instruments like this guy did.

I think that synth is even worse than the original one, but yeah, changing the instruments would be an improvement.

[RLS Legacy]

I feel as though I'm perhaps in the minority here, but: bugger me if I'm not super-excited for Forces.

I adored Unleashed and Generations, so another game in their style is exactly what I wanted out of the 25th anniversary game. Looks like Sonic Team have delivered.

Seriously. Classic be damned, Green Hill be damned (come on, folks, it's one stage)

It's been a good 6 years since the last great Sonic title in my view, so I'm totally on board.

[Zippo]

21 hours ago, blazefan519 said:

Must be nice. As someone who doesn't really care about Mania, Forces is the only thing I have that interests me.

 

21 hours ago, Radiant Hero Ike said:

I'm kind of the opposite. I do want to play Mania, but if it were the only Sonic game this year, I'd be a little disappointed. I look at that Modern Sonic image of him on the grind rail, and it just makes me happy. I grew up with Modern Sonic and it makes me feel nostalgic. Reminds me of the time leading up to Unleashed back when I was 11.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, guys. I'm from an older generation that grew up with the classics, many of us here are, and we get that exact same spark of joy when we see Mania in it's beautiful, Saturn-esque glory. I hope for everyone's sake, that all of us down on Forces are proven wrong when it's released. No one here ever wants a game to be bad. 

[The Deleter]

Here's a more muted, but much less offensive version of the song:

It's still got that Sonic Runners, "anime" vibe going on, but it's definitely less grating on its own, even if it doesn't have much of a kick to it. Definitely not the worst melody there is, but still needs some work imo.

[CleverSonicUsername]

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I don't know if an animation would really be enough, at least not for what I'd like to see out of the series. Sonic Team struggles enough with faking things that should be more mechanically deep, I'd expect they'd hear "let Sonic do this!" and decide "we'll use springs and boost pads to make Sonic do that!".

...Utopia isn't a sandbox. It's too big and too easy to get lost in to be an ideal level, but there's a clear beginning and end and a reasonable sense of direction most of the time.

I maybe used the term too liberally, but that's still the core problem with it. With more focus it might be fine, but honestly at this point what I want from a 3D Sonic game is the current boost gameplay more refined. I'm honestly not impressed by the movement in Utiopia and what I have seen of it just doesn't look all that fun.

[StaticMania]

It probably doesn't look all that fun because all it has to show is Sonic's movement...

 

Momentum. That's fine.

[Kintor]

3 hours ago, RLS Legacy said:

I feel as though I'm perhaps in the minority here, but: bugger me if I'm not super-excited for Forces.

I adored Unleashed and Generations, so another game in their style is exactly what I wanted out of the 25th anniversary game. Looks like Sonic Team have delivered.

Seriously. Classic be damned, Green Hill be damned (come on, folks, it's one stage)

It's been a good 6 years since the last great Sonic title in my view, so I'm totally on board.

I know exactly what you mean. It's been a long drought between Sonic Generations and Sonic Forces. Worse then what happened with a lack of major Sonic games in the Saturn Era; even if Sonic R was still cool in its own way. So I'm really looking forward to Sonic Forces, it's the game I've been waiting six years to play.

 

3 hours ago, Zippo said:

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, guys. I'm from an older generation that grew up with the classics,many of us here are, and we get that exact same spark of joy when we see Mania in it's beautiful, Saturn-esque glory. I hope for everyone's sake, that all of us down on Forces are proven wrong when it's released. No one here ever wants a game to be bad. 

I'm from the older generation as well; Sonic 1 on the Sega Master System was my first Sonic game. So I understand the full well the appeal of Sonic Mania, as a truly phenomenal retro throwback game. With that said, I've also supported Sonic games through the jump to 3D in the Dreamcast era and beyond, I still agree with what I thought back then in 1998: that Sonic needs to move into 3D to remain at the peak of the industry. A good 2D game alone will never be enough, not anymore now that the jump to 3D gaming has been successfully made. I've seen many different takes on Sonic's 3D gameplay and I think that Sonic Team finally got it perfect with Sonic Unleashed's 2.5D boost gameplay. I see Sonic Forces as a direct continuation of that idea, all I want all 3D Sonic games going forward to look like this.

[GuyWithThePie]

Someone needs to give Forces Green Hill's track the same treatment that Splash Hill got in this arrangement here. Seriously.

Edit: The above post that was done at the same time as mine is also good. Heck, I don't get why they couldn't just make the track the same way they did the Classic themes from Generations from the Adventure and Modern Eras.

Personally, I prefer this arrangement.

[Chris Knopps]

I'm gonna be "that guy" here and say...

No matter WHAT you compose the Green Hill track with from the Forces video...

It's going to suck.

The composition is just bad. It's "generic energy" basically, it's "empty hype" trying to pump you up way too hard.

It's like...

"BLAM bi@$&es!!! Here's Classic!! RUN!!"

...I just don't like that track no matter how it's played.

[blazefan519]

2 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I'm gonna be "that guy" here and say...

No matter WHAT you compose the Green Hill track with from the Forces video...

It's going to suck.

The composition is just bad. It's "generic energy" basically, it's "empty hype" trying to pump you up way too hard.

It's like...

"BLAM bi@$&es!!! Here's Classic!! RUN!!"

...I just don't like that track no matter how it's played.

The track itself is nice in my opinion. But the dying cats as instruments is what makes it sound garbage,

[Meta77]

1 hour ago, Chris Knopps said:

I'm gonna be "that guy" here and say...

No matter WHAT you compose the Green Hill track with from the Forces video...

It's going to suck.

The composition is just bad. It's "generic energy" basically, it's "empty hype" trying to pump you up way too hard.

It's like...

"BLAM bi@$&es!!! Here's Classic!! RUN!!"

...I just don't like that track no matter how it's played.

The track sucks agreed. It's why ibwisg they left classic out. For a world in chaos it's way to cheery and pretty of a song

[Chris Knopps]

6 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

The track sucks agreed. It's why ibwisg they left classic out. For a world in chaos it's way to cheery and pretty of a song

Green Hill Zone in general is simply way too against what the game is trying to sell. For what reason they avoided going all out CD with the concept of a dying zone is beyond me but as I've said before, it's very telling how wary they seem to be and clueless they likely are about what seemingly is and isn't too dark for Sonic.

When you think about it, in general the Genesis trilogy including CD was as dark as, if not DARKER than games post the Genesis era. Scrap Brain, the whole Death Egg stuff, CD as a whole revolving it's story and bad futures.

When you take into account the general plots/locations it's possible you could say Classic Sonic is indeed darker than Modern Sonic as we've never had a CD type of 3D title, the closest being the whole planet destruction in Unleashed but... Hey...

(Skipping Shadow folks, and who really wants to bother with 06?)

So what's going on in Green Hill just puzzles me. They have gone dark as night with Classic Sonic back on the Genesis, and now here we are with the villains supposed industrialization of the world causing desertification yet everything's lush, the sky is blue, the music is...

Well, even the badniks look "softer" if you will compared to their Generations counterparts.

[Chris Knopps]

2 hours ago, GuyWithThePie said:

Personally, I prefer this arrangement.

 

Naw naw naw man...

And for the 90's at heart...

When cats sound good.

[Sonictrainer]

5 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Green Hill Zone in general is simply way too against what the game is trying to sell. For what reason they avoided going all out CD with the concept of a dying zone is beyond me but as I've said before, it's very telling how wary they seem to be and clueless they likely are about what seemingly is and isn't too dark for Sonic.

 

If Eggman got control over 99% of the world, would the world instantly become like the Bad Future of Little Planet or would that take some time? Little Planet doesn't have any...resistance.

He changed the entire world before using Chaos Control in Advance 3, but not all of his "empires" were factories. "Sunset Hill Zone" was "Green Hill" he himself created and it still had nature in it.

[The Deleter]

There's only one true Splash Hill rendition in my book

bring back Sketchhog, Sega, please :c

[Chris Knopps]

9 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

There's only one true Splash Hill rendition in my book

bring back Sketchhog, Sega, please :c

Gotta... Go... Zzzz....

*SNURK!!*

W-Whud I miss?! Where's the spring?! Boost pad?!

[BlueFlare]

6 hours ago, HedgehogBR said:

The original music is good, but they have to change the instruments like this guy did.

It's all about tastes here, but after listening the new 'Green Hill' song for the 20th time or so, I still can't get into it. It is rather annoying, honestly. Somehow I don't see it becoming a favorite of mine, for its lack of charm and catchiness, like most opening level songs have: OG Green Hill, Emerald Hill, Angel Island, Palmtree Panic (JP)...

[Celestia]

I actually like the dissonance between the music and what's going on with the zone. Whether it was intentional or not, who knows, but I like the idea of the typical cheerful grass zone music playing even when said grassland is turning into a desert. Bonus points if there's more acts and they get progressively more serious or something, but I wouldn't say even that much is required to justify it.

It'd just be nice if the track itself, uhh, sounded better