Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[redmenace]

This comic is way too complicated and way too contradicting on it's own let alone trying to add game elements to it. No wonder it's an ugly mess at the end of the day, and neither do the long-time Archie fans nor the game fans get satisfied with so much inconsistency.

Archie had the perfect opportunity to set things right with Sonic Universe, leaving the Archie tradition on the main comic and starting another one with game-related stuff. They preferred to expand on the main work though, which to me was a huge mistake. I don't see a bright future for either of these publications.

Were we ever given a reason why Sonic absolutely has to fight a Robotnik? I get the impression that they made that little point out of a desire to rebel against Sega for making them change it, even though they really should have known that it wasn't acceptable in the long term.

Really, their tendency to do this sort of thing is rather annoying to me, it seems to hint that they wished this comic wasn't related to Sonic.

I get this feeling most of the time I'm reading it as well.

Edited October 11, 2009 by redmenace

[vger]

This comic is way too complicated and way too contradicting on it's own let alone trying to add game elements to it. No wonder it's an ugly mess at the end of the day, and neither do the long-time Archie fans nor the game fans get satisfied with so much inconsistency.

I beg to differ, yes the plot is complicated and very difficult for people not familiar with it to get into hence accusations of inconsistency, but that's the nature of the beast when you create such an interesting and varied universe, there's just too much to follow easily. I think its a good thing that they have followed there own path rather than go down the road laid out in the games partly because there isn't the depth in the stories for the games that could support a comic... unless you expand upon them and then were back to people whining about how they don't follow the game law.

Sonic Universe gives us a chance to see plots that wouldn't necessarily make it into the comic since they would take too long to do or distract from the main plot, so separating them and giving them a publication of there own makes sense to me. Plus they are going to the effort of trying to make every four issues stand alone so that you can read them as a story of its own, which just happens to fit into a greater whole.

[Miko]

As a matter of fact, there was no "willingness to kill" in issue 50 either. Sonic didn't kill Robotnik. They basically beat each other up until the UA activated and killed Eggman. It wasn't Sonic who killed him, it was Snively. Could Sonic have actually killed Robotnik after winning the fight? Considering how many times Sonic has let him go, considering Sonic's track record, and considering the content of the comic, I doubt he would have.

And heck, if he DID, it'd be because Robotnik just killed everyone he ever knew with the UA. That was a one time thing.

Even if we don't look at issue 50 though, Sonic has either acknowledged he would've killed in the name of duty (SSS#12), has harmed the mentally unstable (see issue 95 IIRC), or has condoned the killing of others that were mentally unstable (issue 100 with Kodos who he knew to have mental issues). Sonic decided not to kill that guard during "return of the king" because he didn't want to become a monster even though he felt they deserved death for their wrongdoings. I'd be willing to ignore the events in issue 50 even if Sonic did kill and for vengence because of return of the king which happened later. Although SSS#12 brings a sound arguement that Sonic would kill for duty, though maybe not for vengence. It's not even that Sonic didn't kill Eggman (even though he didn't seem at all vengeful during 200 which was the basis for him not to kill during return of the king). What gets me is the degree of sensitivity he shows to Eggman's mental state and how that interferes with his ability to dish justice on any level when he's had no problem with laying it out for his mentally unstable enemies before. My question is, why'd he essentially melt like butter. Even Sally who had to kill Kodos and didn't even flinch at what she had to do to him also is left in a mental state of blankness herself as well.

[Dr. Mechano]

What gets me is the degree of sensitivity he shows to Eggman's mental state and how that interferes with his ability to dish justice on any level when he's had no problem with laying it out for his mentally unstable enemies before.

Justice? He told Tails to take Eggman away, presumably to be imprisoned.

It's not like Sonic wants Eggman to roam free as a danger to the entire planet. He made his intent to detain him very clear. And it makes sense- As long as Eggman's locked up, he can't hurt anyone. So there's no need to harm the man himself since imprisonment essentially forces him to be harmless. (Until he breaks out, of course. But we can ignore that for now.)

Sonic's being a hero. Lock the villain up and prevent him from hurting anyone, but don't exercise needless cruelty with him. It's a nice ideal, I think- One that I can definitely sympathize with, and even if he hasn't always consistently displayed it, it is- to me- a nice development for him.

[redmenace]

I beg to differ, yes the plot is complicated and very difficult for people not familiar with it to get into hence accusations of inconsistency, but that's the nature of the beast when you create such an interesting and varied universe, there's just too much to follow easily. I think its a good thing that they have followed there own path rather than go down the road laid out in the games partly because there isn't the depth in the stories for the games that could support a comic... unless you expand upon them and then were back to people whining about how they don't follow the game law.

Sonic Universe gives us a chance to see plots that wouldn't necessarily make it into the comic since they would take too long to do or distract from the main plot, so separating them and giving them a publication of there own makes sense to me. Plus they are going to the effort of trying to make every four issues stand alone so that you can read them as a story of its own, which just happens to fit into a greater whole.

Er, I never said that Archie should've gone into the games' storyline to begin with. I said trying to fuse the two into one just leads to the huge mess we have and neither parts are satisfied.

Also, you should refrain from saying that because people say it's inconsistent, it's because they don't follow it religiously. It makes no sense whatsoever. It's a comic book for kids, it needs to be accessible. If it isn't, than it's the writers fault. If they do a complicated world they cannot cope with, it's their fault as well.

Sorry, but M:YL featured in the main comic as well. What they're doing is exapanding and confusing an already expanding and confusing universe. It was never needed. If they had refrained from it and just showed stories like the first 5 or so issues, then it could be accepted as something good. This is just Archie Comic 2.

[vger]

Er, I never said that Archie should've gone into the games' storyline to begin with. I said trying to fuse the two into one just leads to the huge mess we have and neither parts are satisfied.

Also, you should refrain from saying that because people say it's inconsistent, it's because they don't follow it religiously. It makes no sense whatsoever. It's a comic book for kids, it needs to be accessible. If it isn't, than it's the writers fault. If they do a complicated world they cannot cope with, it's their fault as well.

Sorry, but M:YL featured in the main comic as well. What they're doing is exapanding and confusing an already expanding and confusing universe. It was never needed. If they had refrained from it and just showed stories like the first 5 or so issues, then it could be accepted as something good. This is just Archie Comic 2.

Okay I will admit that the times Archie have gone into the game story lines it has been inconsistent the Sonic Adventure tie in being a prime example, since then they keep the stories as either a brief introduction or have left alone completely, heck Shadow the hedgehog doesn't feature at all although there are references to the dark arms which may turn up later.

I still maintain however that it isn't inconsistent, each plot is contained within 4-6 issues which can be read alone or as part of a larger whole, if you come in the middle of one of those story arcs of course its going to appear inconsistent, but your going to get that with any comic which has arcs that run more than one issue.

[Miko]

Justice? He told Tails to take Eggman away, presumably to be imprisoned.

Wait is this issue 205 or 200 we're talking about. Because I haven't picked up 205 so I was assuming we were talking about 200 because to revisit that same point in 205 would be a bit redundant for the highlight of the story. But don't get me wrong, the FF's doing an incredibly diluted form of justice that doesn't characterize previous behavior does bother me. But melting like butter like they did in 200 and dishing no justice was much worse.

It's not like Sonic wants Eggman to roam free as a danger to the entire planet. He made his intent to detain him very clear. And it makes sense- As long as Eggman's locked up, he can't hurt anyone.

How many times come to think of it has that idea actually worked? I'm going to take it he just broke out of the confinement, and he got free from his imprisonment on Flicky Island. Again, Sonic and co have killed to protect their people and confinement's never worked. Hell, ALL the villains managed to escape in their care. I wonder why they think Eggman's still worth the risk given the fact they can kill if they need to. I'm curious to know if they did (or will) address that. They won't kill because they're good guys, but they've killed before. Sounds like Rotor's "no guns" policy XP

Sonic's being a hero. Lock the villain up and prevent him from hurting anyone, but don't exercise needless cruelty with him.

Killing him of course for the protection of the people (duty) is something Sonic has admitted he'd do and at this point, I think I'm starting to disagree with everything all the more. It's not needless cruelty either because there are many lives being protected by what they're doing. That and their track record with confinement doesn't work. Ok it's fine if someone like say a more petty villain like Nack get's put away repeatedly. he's not going to be causing global genocide if he gets out.

It's a nice ideal, I think- One that I can definitely sympathize with, and even if he hasn't always consistently displayed it, it is- to me- a nice development for him.

Well I think even you yourself have acknowledged this to an extent but...where was the development? This "sympathy" and what happened in 200 just seemed to have just came out of nowhere.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Miko

[Phos]

One thing I thought was strange was how Sonic allowed Snivley to take Eggman with him rather than imprisoning him themselves, and didn't occupy Eggman's headquaters. They also didn't try to detain Snivly, even though he's been the accomplise to both Eggman and Robotnik. That whole scene was flat out retarded.

And that "balance" thing sounds silly. As far as I know, universal balance is never mentioned anywhere else, it's not like there aren't other villians, and he isn't even their most threataning opponent.

[Miko]

I know! That's what bothered me so much about that issue. They were going to finish everything once in for all, disarm the city, take out Eggman AND Snively whose working for him by capturing them or killing them. Either would've been better than just leaving them there and with Snively in charge no less. I mean because HE'S proven himself to be a trustworthy and noble person right? >.<

Edited October 11, 2009 by Miko

[Ashley Marsh]

With this balance thing, wouldn't that mean that every Robotnik/Eggman would need a Sonic also, so Eggman can't really do anything to Sonic without another being sent in to balance it?

But then again, Eggman killed his Sonic in the other universe, so didn't anything happen then, or did he just move over to the Prime Verse?

[Agent York]

With this balance thing, wouldn't that mean that every Robotnik/Eggman would need a Sonic also, so Eggman can't really do anything to Sonic without another being sent in to balance it?

But then again, Eggman killed his Sonic in the other universe, so didn't anything happen then, or did he just move over to the Prime Verse?

No. Only Sonic Prime needs a Robotnik, since he is the "main" Sonic. In other worlds, anything can happen.

[redmenace]

Is it only me or this prime Sonic being the “main Sonic” so only him matters for the balance sounds awfully pretentious and wrong when you consider Archie is a spinoff?

Edited October 11, 2009 by redmenace

[Dr. Mechano]

Is it only me or this prime Sonic being the “main Sonic” so only him matters for the balance sounds awfully pretentious and wrong when you consider Archie is a spinoff?

Well, all the other Sonics in the Archie continuity are also made up specifically for Archie.

The only exception I can think of is the Sonic X comic (Confirmed to be in the same canon as the Archie series as an alternate universe), which is inspired heavily by the Sonic X anime, which in turn is a lot closer to the games than Archie's prime universe is. Buuuuut, that's a thing.

There's no indication so far that the Sega videogame canon is actually considered a canonical universe within the confines of the Archie continuity. Though if it was, that'd certainly make it just as strange as you said, for this to be "more real" than the game universe it was based on.

[Ashley Marsh]

At the start of the Unleashed adaptation, didn't it start with "In another time, another place" or something like that? That could be taken either way...

[Phos]

Well, all the other Sonics in the Archie continuity are also made up specifically for Archie.

The only exception I can think of is the Sonic X comic (Confirmed to be in the same canon as the Archie series as an alternate universe), which is inspired heavily by the Sonic X anime, which in turn is a lot closer to the games than Archie's prime universe is. Buuuuut, that's a thing.

There's no indication so far that the Sega videogame canon is actually considered a canonical universe within the confines of the Archie continuity. Though if it was, that'd certainly make it just as strange as you said, for this to be "more real" than the game universe it was based on.

Wasn't there a point in the Archie comic where an on model classic style Robotnik showed up? Was that from an alternate universe?

[Dr. Mechano]

Wasn't there a point in the Archie comic where an on model classic style Robotnik showed up? Was that from an alternate universe?

He was on-model to Eggman's classic design, but he was from the OVA universe, not the games.

Also the statue in Stardust Speedway was of classic game-style Eggman, even though Robotnik in the comic still used his "SatAM" design. Very strange.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Dr. Mechano

[redmenace]

I was thinking about the thing overal, not considering the games' storyline as being an alternate universe. It reminds me an author of alternate universe fanfiction having the delusion that his work is more valid then the original work it's based on. No spinoff should have this kind of pretentiousness. Still, considering that the games seem to be an alternate universe this sounds worse than I orginally thought...

I'll never understand what SOA thought it was wrong with Robotnik's and Sonic's japanese design. Sure DIC picked it up and emphatised the changes even more, so it's really not their fault, but why change it in the first place is beyond me. They look so much better in there compared to the artwork of the first Archie comics or even Sonic's saw-fin from the TV-shows and earlier comics. AOSTH aired first and Robotnik was anything but threatening there and the western art was officially only used in the Sonic 2 case, right? So why bother in the first place?

Edited October 12, 2009 by redmenace

[nuckles87]

Were we ever given a reason why Sonic absolutely has to fight a Robotnik? I get the impression that they made that little point out of a desire to rebel against Sega for making them change it, even though they really should have known that it wasn't acceptable in the long term.

Really, their tendency to do this sort of thing is rather annoying to me, it seems to hint that they wished this comic wasn't related to Sonic.

lol, Archie doesn't "rebel". Ian is a SONIC fan, hence the loads of fan service in the latest issue. He was a fan of the comics and games long before he came on as a writer. I don't know where people get these notions. Robotnik was always planned to return after he was killed off.

In any case, it was stated that Sonic's current conflict with Robotnik was critical to his zone's stability. There will be elaboration in the encyclopedia, but Ian has stated that Robotnik being defeated and killed will be just fine, but since the last Robotnik was ERASED from existence, things are different.

It also more or less maps out a reality of the comic: Robotnik is Sonic's arch enemy, will always exist, and always be there. If writers wanted to get away from Robotnik, they could. Heck, they have. Robotnik took a backseat as villain last year and looks to be taking a back seat again for the rest of this year. if they ever wanted to go awhile without Robotnik, they could. They just can't permanently kill him off. Ian really likes Robotnik, so I doubt he has a problem with it.

Even if we don't look at issue 50 though, Sonic has either acknowledged he would've killed in the name of duty (SSS#12), has harmed the mentally unstable (see issue 95 IIRC), or has condoned the killing of others that were mentally unstable (issue 100 with Kodos who he knew to have mental issues). Sonic decided not to kill that guard during "return of the king" because he didn't want to become a monster even though he felt they deserved death for their wrongdoings. I'd be willing to ignore the events in issue 50 even if Sonic did kill and for vengence because of return of the king which happened later. Although SSS#12 brings a sound arguement that Sonic would kill for duty, though maybe not for vengence. It's not even that Sonic didn't kill Eggman (even though he didn't seem at all vengeful during 200 which was the basis for him not to kill during return of the king). What gets me is the degree of sensitivity he shows to Eggman's mental state and how that interferes with his ability to dish justice on any level when he's had no problem with laying it out for his mentally unstable enemies before. My question is, why'd he essentially melt like butter. Even Sally who had to kill Kodos and didn't even flinch at what she had to do to him also is left in a mental state of blankness herself as well.

See, there is one big, gaping hole in this argument that Sonic can kill: HE HASN'T. He's had plenty of chances in the past, but he HASN'T killed anyone on purpose. Sonic's claimed he will, but he hasn't backed it up with any kind of action. I don't really think he ever will. The closest I ever see Sonic coming to this, is killing in the heat of battle and not regretting it.

What's more, he didn't drive Kodos insane. Radiation did. Sonic wasn't personally responsible, and THAT is the big difference here between Robotnik and Kodos. Sonic's sympathy has nothing to do with Robotnik's mental instability, and everything to do with the fact that he broke it. He clearly states this several times. What's more, unlike Robotnik, Kodos was genuinely DANGEROUS 'til the end. Robotnik was so harmless (to SONIC, mind you) that he went easy on him. It wasn't the fact that Kodos was insane; it was the fact that he was still capable of killing people. Robotnik was defeated so easily in this, it would be out of character for Sonic to NOT imprison him.

[Phos]

My post was primarily referring to the comic before Ian arrived, hence the past tense.

That said, I'm not enjoying most of what Ian's done so far. The first storyline of Sonic Universe was essentially a first in that only involved a few characters who weren't from the games, but then the very next story is right back to the third degree don't-give-a-fuck characters, but hey, there's a story about Knuckles in a few issues, right? It almost seemed like some sort of "gotcha" when it was revealed that it's as much about that Echidna with Vulcan style name as it is about Knuckles.

[Miko]

What's more, he didn't drive Kodos insane. Radiation did. Sonic wasn't personally responsible, and THAT is the big difference here between Robotnik and Kodos.

Sonic didn't know what made Kodos insane however and he didn't know what made Eggman go nuts until Snively explained it. And speaking of Kodos, I again cite the fact that Sally killed him but wouldn't kill Eggman.

He's had plenty of chances in the past, but he HASN'T killed anyone on purpose.

He's killed for example Mecha at the end of the "Home" story arc (133) to protect everyone and that wasn't an accident. Mecha being an AI (who was therefore different from Robtotnik's standard swatbots and shadow bots). To say Sonic doesn't regard AI the same way he would intellect and so on for normal organisms is something I don't really buy into considering the relationship the books been aiming FFs to have with Nicole for years. He was also very surprised in issue 157 to find out she was alive. So the assumption he killed her because he thought she could easily be ressurected would be very incorrect. I also think though that working extremely hard to refrain from beheading someone would also provide the arguement that he could do it, especially when feeling vengeful. Not that all this was really my main gripe matters because I did also say in that same stuff you quoted:

It's not even that Sonic didn't kill Eggman (even though he didn't seem at all vengeful during 200 which was the basis for him not to kill during return of the king). What gets me is the degree of sensitivity he shows to Eggman's mental state and how that interferes with his ability to dish justice on any level when he's had no problem with laying it out for his mentally unstable enemies before. My question is, why'd he essentially melt like butter. Even Sally who had to kill Kodos and didn't even flinch at what she had to do to him also is left in a mental state of blankness herself as well.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Miko

[The Conductor]

You keep saying that Sally killed Kodos, but wasn't she possessed by the Sword of Acorns at the time?

[Miko]

She had that fiery dialouge, but she's had it when clearly in control of herself like when she went in to robotropolis and ended her sentence with that fiery dialouge that we saw her use before zapping kodos. I guess her voice (or maybe just the text balloon?) just changes when she's getting powered up.

[nuckles87]

He's killed for example Mecha at the end of the "Home" story arc (133) to protect everyone and that wasn't an accident. Mecha being an AI (who was therefore different from Robtotnik's standard swatbots and shadow bots). To say Sonic doesn't regard AI the same way he would intellect and so on for normal organisms is something I don't really buy into considering the relationship the books been aiming FFs to have with Nicole for years.

Mecha, in the Home arc was presented as an unemotional killing machine, much like every other robot Sonic's "killed". Robots are different. She barely bantered or showed much emotion. Sonic hardly had any sort of personal friendship or connection like he's had with other AIs. She was just another robot.

Nicole is something of an exception, because Sonic has had a very long relationship with Nicole, and Nicole has presented fully human like emotions and intellect. Sonic also showed sympathy towards another AI that died, Metal Sonic. He even showed sympathy for EVE after she plunged herself into a sun, despite the fact that she destroyed countless worlds.

If the AI has realistic emotions and human qualities, Sonic will, and has, shown sympathy for it, regardless of it's crimes. Sonic has shown he can be very forgiving.

So really, Mecha is a VERY poor example. As I said before, Sonic has left a very low body count. Try finding an example of something with human emotions.

Sonic didn't know what made Kodos insane however and he didn't know what made Eggman go nuts until Snively explained it. And speaking of Kodos, I again cite the fact that Sally killed him but wouldn't kill Eggman.

I didn't say Sonic knew what made Kodos go insane. I said he knew what made Robotnik go insane. He's stated repeatedly that he feels really bad about "breaking" him. He explicitly states that in 205. Hence why he's acting so different in regards to this.

And what does Sally killing Kodos have to do with her not killing Eggman? By the time she got there Robotnik had been beaten and reduced to a crying bawling mess.

She had that fiery dialouge, but she's had it when clearly in control of herself like when she went in to robotropolis and ended her sentence with that fiery dialouge that we saw her use before zapping kodos.

True. Sally has even acted contrary to the sword's wishes while in this state, so it cannot be assumed that it was the sword that killed Kodos.

What is known, however, is that Sally killed in the heat of the moment, which I do believe is the only way any of these characters, outside of perhaps Shadow on a bad day, would kill.

[Miko]

Mecha, in the Home arc was presented as an unemotional killing machine, much like every other robot Sonic's "killed".

That's not true. Mecha was capable of developing a familial relationship with Eggman that even Sonic acknowledges when addressing Eggman to her during the home story arc. She also displayed personality traits such as vanity, getting incredibly angry when her "makeup" got torn off by the FFs. She was deffinately not a Shadow bot who had no sense of familial relationship to Eggman and have no personality traits. Her whole purpose was to provide Eggman with a relationship that his other robots obviously didn't already provide.

I didn't say Sonic knew what made Kodos go insane. I said he knew what made Robotnik go insane. He's stated repeatedly that he feels really bad about "breaking" him.

And I'm saying that he didn't know he broke Eggman until Snively explained it to him. But it doesn't explain the hesitation that could've warranted Snively to break in and say his piece. It also doesn't explain Sally's hesitation either. Nor does it really explain why they'd leave Snively (whose tried to kill him and someone they don't trust) with full access to the kingdom. That wasn't compassion, that was sheer stupidity. Especially since they made sure to capture him when he was doing a solo act in Mobitropolis after issue 50.

What is known, however, is that Sally killed in the heat of the moment

Actually, it isn't. Sally is supposed to be the one who can be the most level headed under these kinds of conditions and being there wasn't anything outstanding about this battle I can't see her loosing her cool to the degree you're suggesting me to believe. Kodos was on the opposite end of the cliff. She didn't just zap him to prevent his reaching the others on the edge like say Bunnie or even Tails did. She flung him on the opposite end of the cliff and just let him fall to his death without using her gravity sword magic to help. She could have zapped him backwards but she chose to hurl him off. If this were in the heat of the moment remorse, or better yet stopping him midfall would have been reasonable reactions.

Edited October 14, 2009 by god

[Toby]