Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Blazey Firekitty]

To the best of my memory, Bunnie has always been extremely feminine and a competent fighter all at the same time.

[Dr. Mechano]

Teehee, stereotypical gender roles.

Being assertive and confident is not an inherently "manly" trait, just as being a follower is not an inherently "girly" trait.

I find the most well-rounded characters often aren't on either "extreme" of the spectrum, and take elements from both.

(Eggman is, for example, a big hairy manly man who loudly proclaims what an awesome guy he is! But he's also known to be flamboyantly giddy and very open with his emotions, whereas the "stereotypically masculine" image has the tough guy bottle up his feelings- Something the ever-expressive Eggman never bothers to do.)

While masculinity in women is seen as strong or at least as balanced (A thought I'm more than willing to agree to), it kind of strikes me as a case of severely unfortunate implications that femininity in men is seen as weak.

[Flyboy Fox]

To the best of my memory, Bunnie has always been extremely feminine and a competent fighter all at the same time.

Sally is also feminine, in a tomboyish way (if that makes sense). That is, she has the typical tomboyish traits yet she doesn't seem to forget her feminine wiles when she needs them. Dressed in her boyish vest with her short hair and androgynous figure, yet with her hand on her hip and winking slyly, is exactly how I love to see her. Damn, if I wasn't head over heels for Sonic I would probably find Sally extremely hot for exactly her blend of boyishness and feminine charms.

[Blazey Firekitty]

At Mechano: I actually had an interesting thought about Eggman.^^ Would you consider his attempts, in the Sonic X anime, at gently advising Chris and Tails to accept the difficult things in life and move forward, to be an example of Eggman being nurturing?

At Flyboy: It's interesting that you should say those things, because during the story arc where Robotnik destroyed Knothole and New Mobotropolis was created, Sally decided to get her hair cut down to the way it used to be as a sign that she was rejecting the duty minded, overly worrisome persona she'd taken on while her hair was long.

You know, the Sally who slapped Sonic and grew vampire fangs.XD

[Dr. Mechano]

At Mechano: I actually had an interesting thought about Eggman.^^ Would you consider his attempts, in the Sonic X anime, at gently advising Chris and Tails to accept the difficult things in life and move forward, to be an example of Eggman being nurturing?

Totally. And I thought both were two of the sweetest displays of his nice side.

...Of course, in Archie, things are a bit different. But even there I think he has that veritable mixture of traits that rounds out his personality, even if in this canon "nurturing" isn't one of those traits.

[Blazey Firekitty]

...Of course, in Archie, things are a bit different. But even there I think he has that veritable mixture of traits that rounds out his personality, even if in this canon "nurturing" isn't one of those traits.

Yeah, under Ian's pen, he's at least grown more charismatic and jovial, even if he still seems as selfish as the SatAM Robotnik was.

But hey, maybe this whole insanity thing might be his second chance at life as a better person.^^

[Miko]

I think any accusations of sexism is going a bit far. I think the matter of a man writing does has an influence, it's a fact that fundamentally men think differently then women. So while I can see it geared towards that, I don't think it's a case of sexism.

There isn't a way of thinking inherently masculine or feminine. My issue is that it's insulting to the many men and women with a lot of traits that are traditionally perceived as feminine when these traits are generally associated with being periphreal and weak. And the thing that bothers me about what you're saying is that women have to learn how to act more "masculine" but men can shrug of understanding women as "they're different" and no think about the social issues or many "feminine" caharacteristics. This goes for any majority-minority group when it comes to social influence it's not just women. Those who have a smaller ammount of power in the population tend to be forced to learn about and emulate those who have more of it to acquire status. Meanwhile those who have more also have the privlege of overlooking the characteristics of those who have less power.

Also, your whole first paragraph is kinda moot because I wasn't talking about Sonic Universe. I said THE Sonic universe, meaning the entire world of Sonic media.

Well not all of it, just most of it. But being that Archie is it's own verse, I think I can and should, judge from the position of it's unvierse. A girl from some other Sonic universe not being periphreal to her story whilst carrying a lot of feminine qualities doesn't change the state of this book. While I did acknowledge that there are other females even within the context of this book. I also however said this:

As far as lead females go, the females who are not periphreal to the main characters and whose thoughts and feelings are generally treated more seriously tend to lack a lot of feminine characteristics, or they don't deal at all with issues women are interested in because they're "too cool" for it.

Why can't we have a tomboy princess, anyway? If ALL the female characters were like that I'd see a problem, but in the Archie-verse alone we have Amy, NICOLE, and more who are very feminine in their appearance and don't act 'male' at all.

It's not that you can't have a tomboy princess (although plucky Disney princess and Warrior princess is sort of played out). But my qualms with the treatment of "feminine" characters is as noted above. That and, even if you are a tomboy, you're still going to have to deal with a lot of issues girls deal with. Like for example pressures concerning your appearance. Bunnie's story dropped the issue like a sack of potatoes when she dated (and later married) Twan, Julie-su looks down on girls who have to deal with this calling them "shallow" and Sally is too good to care about her appearance and yet all the guys marvel over her beauty. Sally being a bigger slap in the face because was originally written to tbe the kind of girl who did like to go shopping and who did care about her appearance. Her original explanation for palatte swapping was because she chose to dye her fur to be more attractive which Penders warped to make "because she fell into a chemical vat." There was a deliberate change to look down on "femininity."

To the best of my memory, Bunnie has always been extremely feminine and a competent fighter all at the same time.

Bunnie is comparably much more periphreal to the story than Sally. It's inconsequential what happens to her. Most of the cast are very competent and while Bunnie has been considered a core member of the team, she hasn't been a very pivotal female character in either Sonic or Knuckles books. She also rarely addresses feminine issues and she has been shifting towards a "southern rebel" kind of character (as noted in her redesign) than a southern belle (a concept Archie has never really worked with). and like I said a lot of the social issues that Bunnie was known for addressing somewhat in SatAM were dropped relatively early in Archie with Twan's accepting her.

One can have masculine/boyish traits without acting like a 'man' ('man' and 'boy' are also different concepts - to be boyish is far more of an androgynous thing than to be mannish).

That'd infer to be "boyish" is "standard" which is sexist because somehow being "girly" is not. And I know there are "girly" traits and so do you. You even said "she just doesn't act girly" which wouldn't have needed to have been said if girly were equally as androgynous as boyishness. Boys have social roles every bit as much as men. Yes, their sense of gender roles may become even more polarized as they grow, but it doesn't change the fact they do have ascribed roles. And the word "tomboy" actually came from describing "a girl who acts like a spirited boy" if there were no such thing as gender roles for boys and girls Sally couldn't be a tomboy because there'd be none.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Miko

[Kiljoy]

Totally. And I thought both were two of the sweetest displays of his nice side.

...Of course, in Archie, things are a bit different. But even there I think he has that veritable mixture of traits that rounds out his personality, even if in this canon "nurturing" isn't one of those traits.

Think that's a big difference from the way I look at it. That nurturing side, in my opinion, is distasteful, it's a weakness and a bad part of his personality. I know your thinking that it helps round out his personality, but I think that without that he isn't lacking in any way, to me it improves him as a villain. Honestly the scene in X where Eggman made a comment about hurting Chris pissed me off very much.

There isn't a way of thinking inherently masculine or feminine. My issue is that it's insulting to the many men and women with a lot of traits that are traditionally perceived as feminine when these traits are generally associated with being periphreal and weak. And the thing that bothers me about what you're saying is that women have to learn how to act more "masculine" but men can shrug of understanding women as "they're different" and no think about the social issues or many "feminine" caharacteristics. This goes for any majority-minority group when it comes to social influence it's not just women. Those who have a smaller ammount of power in the population tend to be forced to learn about and emulate those who have more of it to acquire status. Meanwhile those who have more also have the privlege of overlooking the characteristics of those who have less power.

What the hell are you talking about, you went way off on some tangent. All I did was point out what is a fact, it is a fact that a man's brains and a woman's brains work differently, that is inarguable. My point was that this was a man trying to write the character of a woman in a feminine way, it's not an easy thing to do. I was saying that in the cases where it may seem like sexism it's not on purpose, it's just the thought process. I would say the same thing if the tables were turned and a woman was writing for the character of a man.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Kiljoy

[Blazey Firekitty]

You know, the more discussion on gender roles that goes on, the more I want to see Shadow perform "I feel pretty!" in a future Archie issue.XD

[Dr. Mechano]

That nurturing side, in my opinion, is distasteful, it's a weakness and a bad part of his personality.

Yeah, man! People should be mean! How dare he have realistic redeeming qualities- We all know that people who do bad things always do bad things, and never have any other dimension to their personality except for their own evil motivations! (I shouldn't even have to make this disclaimer, but just in case, the preceding was in fact sarcasm.)

X, the anime and comic both, were legitimate interpretations of Eggman's character that I greatly enjoyed. Archie's a very different, yet still legitimate, interpretation as well- And you know, I also enjoy it, albeit differently.

I'm capable of enjoying sympathetic Eggman and psychopathic monster Eggman- As long as his personality's entertaining, I'm down for it. While I prefer his sympathetic portrayals, I do respect and find entertainment in his more brutal presentations as well (Aside from SatAM. SatAM Julian really lacked personality and presence.).

My point is a tangent from the main Archie topic though, since I have no real issue with Archie's Eggman being a generally nasty guy- That's who he is. However, my rebuttal to you is that the nicer versions of Eggman are still legitimate interpretations, and well-characterized in their own right. They give him more depth than a flat "I am evil and nothing else" character, and I find that far more believable, I must quite frankly say.

[Flyboy Fox]

What I'm getting from you, Miko, is that you just don't like the fact that the main female character is a tomboy and not a girly-girl. Which is actually quite insulting to females, because it seems that you're implying that girls should love shopping and be overly concerned with their appearance. I see Sally as a strong FEMALE role model, not as a male one. She's no less female just because she isn't GIRLY.

[Miko]

What the hell are you talking about, you went way off on some tangent. All I did was point out what is a fact, it is a fact that a man's brains and a woman's brains work differently, that is inarguable. My point was that this was a man trying to write the character of a woman in a feminine way, it's not an easy thing to do. I was saying that in the cases where it may seem like sexism it's not on purpose, it's just the thought process. I would say the same thing if the tables were turned and a woman was writing for the character of a man.

Women are expected to on some level understand how men operate "in a man's world" just like any minority power-group must do to fit in with those who have more power. "That man" already had the grondwork for the original Sally laid out for him and instead of following it, he went and completely changed the character to suit his tomboyish desires. A man's brain working different doesn't mean he's automatically for example shut down to the capacity to understand and learn about woman's issues. A man being a man doesn't suddenly mean the subject of women suddenly become invisible. For example eating disorders suddenly dissappear into another dimension that only women can see just because a guy is "wired" different?

Being assertive and confident is not an inherently "manly" trait, just as being a follower is not an inherently "girly" trait.

I acknowledge that men and women are capable of having either trait. But we don't knock down as much people with a lot of masculine traits, while we tend to look negatively on men and women who do have a lot of traditionally perceived "feminine" qualities. It's true that SOME characteristics were ascribed to women for the direct purpose of subordination and could only be valued as such. Not all however, and we have no problem showing males as likeable and capable individuals in this comic despite a lot of the problems associated with male social roles. While Sally isn't only consumed by masculine roles, there's an overemphasis of them and whenever they do try to portray her "feminine" side, it usually is at the exepense of the male characters. Usually by emphasizing third wave concepts for what femininity was, like "men can't think without a woman's help", etc (the third wave being looked down on for it's persistent man bashing while having this "be-like-men" attitude for the 'promotion of women's rights'). It's kind of hard to describe it really. It's like for example seeing some members of a group say hateful things about another group but also emulate them. For example, many white people will say hateful things about blacks (this often because they associate black culture with hip hop culture) but will emulate the very culture they disrespected, wearing baggy jeans and listening to rap. Some black people on the flip side can say hateful things about white people but relax their hair or in more extreme cases use skin bleach (although thats more common in places like asia/middle east despite a lot of the American bashing going on there).

Edited October 24, 2009 by Miko

[Blazey Firekitty]

Just to throw a couple more cents in: A character can be both girly and a fighter at the same time. It worked for Sailor Moon.

On the <i>other</i> hand, I'm not sure how many would like to see the permanent return of Sally's "Sally Moon" persona, who fights for the many moons of Mobius and has a crush on Tuxedo Knux.XD

[Flyboy Fox]

Please, never again, NO.

[Kiljoy]

Yeah, man! People should be mean! How dare he have realistic redeeming qualities- We all know that people who do bad things always do bad things, and never have any other dimension to their personality except for their own evil motivations! (I shouldn't even have to make this disclaimer, but just in case, the preceding was in fact sarcasm.)

X, the anime and comic both, were legitimate interpretations of Eggman's character that I greatly enjoyed. Archie's a very different, yet still legitimate, interpretation as well- And you know, I also enjoy it, albeit differently.

I'm capable of enjoying sympathetic Eggman and psychopathic monster Eggman- As long as his personality's entertaining, I'm down for it. While I prefer his sympathetic portrayals, I do respect and find entertainment in his more brutal presentations as well (Aside from SatAM. SatAM Julian really lacked personality and presence.).

My point is a tangent from the main Archie topic though, since I have no real issue with Archie's Eggman being a generally nasty guy- That's who he is. However, my rebuttal to you is that the nicer versions of Eggman are still legitimate interpretations, and well-characterized in their own right. They give him more depth than a flat "I am evil and nothing else" character, and I find that far more believable, I must quite frankly say.

Whoa hold on there, I was just saying that my ideal villain is not one who harbors those traits. People can be nice, I just prefer my villains to not be that nice and have that kind of personality, to me it clashes with him being a villain.

Women are expected to on some level understand how men operate "in a man's world" just like any minority power-group must do to fit in with those who have more power. "That man" already had the grondwork for the original Sally laid out for him and instead of following it, he went and completely changed the character to suit his tomboyish desires. A man's brain working different doesn't mean he's automatically for example shut down to the capacity to understand and learn about woman's issues. A man being a man doesn't suddenly mean the subject of women suddenly become invisible. For example eating disorders suddenly dissappear into another dimension that only women can see just because a guy is "wired" different?

I acknowledge that men and women are capable of having either trait. But we don't knock down as much people with a lot of masculine traits, while we tend to look negatively on men and women who do have a lot of traditionally perceived "feminine" qualities. It's true that SOME characteristics were ascribed to women for the direct purpose of subordination and could only be valued as such. Not all however, and we have no problem showing males as likeable and capable individuals in this comic despite a lot of the problems associated with male social roles. While Sally isn't only consumed by masculine roles, there's an overemphasis of them and whenever they do try to portray her "feminine" side, it usually is at the exepense of the male characters. Usually by emphasizing third wave concepts for what femininity was, like "men can't think without a woman's help", etc (the third wave being looked down on for it's persistent man bashing while tryng to be like men attitude for the promotion of women's rights). It's kind of hard to describe it really. It's like for example seeing some members of a group say hateful things about an entire group of but whole they emulate them. For example, many white people will say hateful things about blacks (this often because they associate black culture with hip hop culture) but will emulate the very culture they disrespected, wearing baggy jeans and listening to rap. Some black people on the flip side can say hateful things about white people but relax their hair or in more extreme cases use skin bleach (although thats more common in places like asia/middle east despite a lot of the American bashing going on there).

Miko I'm not passing judgment on societies view of men and women, I agree that making a woman understand a man's world is unfair. I'm just saying that in this situation it may be a bit rash to simply call sexism, it's just a man writing a woman.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Please, never again, NO.

Only at the apocalypse.XD

But in all seriousness, I'm pretty happy with Amy, and to a lesser extent Blaze being the closest things the book has to "magical girls."

[Miko]

What I'm getting from you, Miko, is that you just don't like the fact that the main female character is a tomboy and not a girly-girl. Which is actually quite insulting to females, because it seems that you're implying that girls should love shopping and be overly concerned with their appearance.

First of all, my disdain for Sally isn't that she ISN'T a girly girl. it's:

1. Both the girls lead girls for Sonic AND Knuckles were "tomboys" which was my criticism of Penders. Penders deliberatly changed Sally's characterization to reflect someone who was a uber tomboy. If you read back, she's hardly anything like the girl who complained about getting dirty or dyed her fur out of concern for her appearance.

2. The only highly emphasized "female characteristics" Sally has are to really put men down, and they were only really "female" characteristics among third wave feminists.

3. She brushes off female issues easily which hardly makes her a role model for girls or anyone who have carries a lot of traditionally feminine roles.

4.I'm not saying all girly-girls act the same way but you take the good with the bad. If we perceived Sonic's behavior from a 3rd wave perspective, he's overly impulsive. That doesn't mean that in spite of this he's not a good guy with redeeming qualities. However it just seems crazy to some people that even if someone DID write a girly girl to care greatly about her appearance or shop a lot, that they couldn't be good and interesting characters. Your apprehension is the same kind I found in Penders' writing. That girls should reflect ideals, while boys don't have to. Not saying every girl has to be a shopaholic or whatever but you don't have to be apprehensive to those issues either.

I see Sally as a strong FEMALE role model,

Tomboy=strong. Girly-girl=weak.

That's the implication I get from what you're saying which is dripping with sexism. Especially when you treat female issues (like apparance for example their appearance) as being "overly concerned." As girls are just being weak and overemotional. That of course undermines a lot of social pressure that makes women care about their appearance. And given the pressure they deal with, their concern isn't "overboard." Sally isn't a strong FEMALE role model. She and Julie-su just brush off female issues like they're nothing. I could see if they had to struggle with the issue for awhile and somehow managed to beleivably find the strength to walk away from something that's an ongoing battle for women. These two just don't care. They've on an emotional level never really even had to battle the issue. They just saw it, and discarded it. A role model is someone you can touch. Someone you can feasibly try to emulate. Sally is more like idol. Someone who isn't supposed to be feasible, but is wrapped up in idealisms. Even tomboys will be confronted with and struggle with the pressure.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Miko

[Blazey Firekitty]

First of all, my disdain for Sally isn't that she ISN'T a girly girl. it's:

1. Both the girls lead girls for Sonic AND Knuckles were "tomboys" which was my criticism of Penders. Penders deliberatle changed Sally's characterization to reflect someone who was a uber tomboy. If you read back, she's hardly anything like the girl who complained about getting dirty or dyed her fur out of concern for her appearance.

I don't remember Sally being particularly girly when she was pink. Granted, I haven't read all the early issues, but in the ones I did read, she still appeared to be the leader of the Freedom Fighters and the brains of the outfit, even if she didn't have Nicole.

Edit, @ Miko: I do not understand what you mean when you say "feminine issues." I am literally not familiar with this concept, at least if you mean in a context other than "Female equality issues."

Edited October 24, 2009 by BlazeyBakeneko

[Flyboy Fox]

Miko, you misunderstood me completely. I said that she was a strong FEMALE role model, implying that I respected her for her feminine traits rather than just her boyish traits. I'm not sure how you turned that upsidedown to deduce the exact opposite, but oh well ^^;

[Miko]

1) "Sally isn't vain"

* Sally says that she didn't complain about her looks when she fell into a "chemical vat", but in issue #3 she exclaims "the perpetrators will be punished!" because people made an issue about her hair color. And then takes it a step further and drags Antoine to help her with the investigation.

* Sally says she really needs a hairdresser.

Issue 3 page 21 "Rabbit Deployment"

* Sally goes to Bunnie's salon to get her hair done.

* Sally has Antoine assemble her Lady Vanity table stand mirror for her instead of doing it herself.

*Sally has noted in the earlier issues she dyed her hair.

2) "Sally does take being a princess seriously" (a little tidbit ended by Penders)

Issue 3 "Rabbit Deployment"

Issue 3 "Paper Trail" (page 14)

Cover of issue 4

* Why is she reading magazines like "Modern Princess"? ( on the cover of issue 4)

* Sally pulls rank when she finds out about her hair color in newspaper print. She grabs her crown and ceptor and proclaims "There shall be no peace around here until the perpetrators have been punished. For I am princess Sally Acorn, and my word is law! I shall be avenged! Come along Antoine... the investigation begins!" (issue 3 page 14)

6) Sally was the leader

Sonic Spinball adaptation expresses that Sonic will lead them into battle. Sonic also relied more on his own ability to think in the older issues than he did relying on Sally. Rabbot deployment shows the respect Rotor has for Sonic's decisions.

This is not to say THIS Sally was the all encompassing good. She was not a pivotal character and often times wasn't apart of missions. Many people could interpret that as making a feminine character periphreal. The problem was that Penders thought the solution was making a girly-girl into a tomboy. Goodness she even watched soap operas XD. He didn't consider rethinking how he sees feminine individuals if for nothing else the sake of the story.

Miko I'm not passing judgment on societies view of men and women, I agree that making a woman understand a man's world is unfair. I'm just saying that in this situation it may be a bit rash to simply call sexism, it's just a man writing a woman.

So you admit it's not fair that women are forced to understand a man's world. But "it's just men writing a woman" when a guy doesn't likewise understand a woman's world =/

Edit, @ Miko: I do not understand what you mean when you say "feminine issues." I am literally not familiar with this concept, at least if you mean in a context other than "Female equality issues."

When I say "female" issues, I mean issues that generally affect female populations a lot more than male.I've been persistently citing for example the struggle with appearance that women have. Not saying men don't have issues with their appearance, but the issue is often more intense for women because they're faced with more pressure in that regard.

Miko, you misunderstood me completely. I said that she was a strong FEMALE role model, implying that I respected her for her feminine traits rather than just her boyish traits.

But you just said you didn't see the character as girly even though she is female which sort of negates what you said. You also disrespected women's issues when pressing for a girl who isn't a tomboy by saying I'm sexist for allegedly preferring to see people a "overly" concerned with their appearance and loving shopping which really makes question how much you respect traditionally female qualities. And whether you still disagree on what I've just said I still don't think my divide on Sally being a strong female role model is because I'm misunderstanding you. Sally and Julie-su especially tend to just overlook female issues without having any emotional discourse about it.

[Flyboy Fox]

Wait... shopping is a 'traditional female quality'? All this time I thought that it was a cultural thing Silly me. Seriously, aside from early silliness, when does Sally have time to shop? Shouldn't she be concerned with more... I dunno... pressing issues? Same goes for her appearance. The comic is less, well, comic now. It's only natural that she should act more realistically given the circumstances. Real girls probably ARE far less 'girly' when under the kinds of pressure Sally is under. And given that she was a tomboy to begin with, she's even less likely to cling to those shallow things. Yes, shallow. There's nothing inherently feminine about shopping or even tending to one's appearance. That's a cultural construct that you're needlessly applying to a completely disassociated scenario.

[Blazey Firekitty]

When I say "female" issues, I mean issues that generally affect female populations a lot more than male.I've been persistently citing for example the struggle with appearance that women have. Not saying men don't have issues with their appearance, but the issue is often more intense for women because they're faced with more pressure in that regard.

The fact that women are pressured more than men to look "beautiful" is a sad one, and one that should change. But I'm not sure how one would properly address that issue in an adventure comic for kids.;;

[Kiljoy]

So you admit it's not fair that women are forced to understand a man's world. But "it's just men writing a woman" when a guy doesn't likewise understand a woman's world =/

Damnit Miko stop pulling what I say out and misinterpreting it. Your treating what I said as if "Woman writing man" is any different, it's not. If we were in this same situation with the writer being female and the character being male I would say the exact same thing. My point is man or woman it doesn't matter.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Kiljoy

[Miko]

The comic is less, well, comic now. It's only natural that she should act more realistically given the circumstances. Real girls probably ARE far less 'girly' when under the kinds of pressure Sally is under.

Which is why Bunnie felt the social pressure even though it wasn't long before Antoine "swooped in." I'm not under the impression society was so disjointed, that women bore no social pressures during the early period, even as the comdey was fading. Sally was just ever so fortunate under Penders' writing to be most regarded for beauty without ever having to worry about it. That's essentially the most realistic basis for Sally to never have to worry about her appearance. To me, that's one of the reasons why she's a relatively weak role model for women. It's like saying our role model should be someone whose naturally 5 feet 8 inches and weighing a little under 100 pounds.

Even if you're going to argue that you don't think she'd realistically worry about those things, it's not realistic to be THAT beautiful and it doesn't change the fact women can't relate to it. Nowadays, the kingdoms's society is way more formal than it even was in Knothole. And Knothole was a hidden society that was far from the state of many third world countries, albiet it had it's problems. Sally presently looks at the battlefeild as a game. "What pressure?" Her taking the battlefeild seriously is why she left and now she's back bearing cocky grins and smiles as if this is all some kind of joke. Of course when convenient Ian does try to make her sound serious because he wants both worlds, which he's just not been feasibly been bringing to the table.

And given that she was a tomboy to begin with, she's even less likely to cling to those shallow things.

*points to prior post* No she wasn't tomboyish to "begin" with. Sally cooked, cleaned, was regulating things from within Knothole, cared a great deal about her appearance and emphasized her position as princess. This girl read magazines and hated getting dirty. We go from that to a character has a total disregard for just about all of these things.

Yes, shallow. There's nothing inherently feminine about shopping or even tending to one's appearance. That's a cultural construct that you're needlessly applying to a completely disassociated scenario.

You're the one who said "shopping". But being attractive is generally a concern that oversteps "western culture" for women. Corsets hurting the circulatiion of women in Europe, Footbinding to shrink feet in the east, neck braces to make necks longer in parts of Africa and so on. All over the world women have done maladaptive things in the name of appearance. It's been all over the world, and not just now. Sure women may express this concern differently, especially because aesthetics are different. Anorexia may not be prevalent in some countries, but it doesn't change the fact people have this issue or that appearance doesn't matter in those countries. Secondly, gender roles are not things that popped out of thin air. People made them for the most part. So, even if you're going to argue that it's a product of culture--these social issues I've mentioned are apart of the lives of men and women, especially in cultures and socio economic bracket where the book is published and bought. You can produce all the sources in the world that people in third world countries who can't afford food can't worry about appearance. But that's not really dealing with the fact that appearance for example is a big social issue for those who are reading the book. Knothole was never in that kind of position where they had to worry every waking moment about diahreea, dirty water, cholera, malnutrition and so on. They strategized, they fought but they threw parties, lived and had village life as well. And it doesn't excuse the fact that now society is even more formalized with the kingdom being formally established and Sonic and co living in a city.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Why should the book teach people about social worries like attractiveness and how to attract a mate? It was originally based on SatAM and the early games, so the only social message it taught(For the most part) was "Take care of the environment."