Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Barry the Nomad]

I think Archie Sonic is long overdue for a reboot, or a massive retooling (thats what she said). 

 

While I did grow up with the comic, buying issue 1 on release and buying up every main series, spin-off, and special issue up until issue 110... I just grew tired of the series. I guess it didn't help that the series itself wasn't in the best shape by the time I stopped subscribing.

 

I think one of the major reasons I stopped reading was that by that time (2001), the games themselves were establishing their own universe and the games just didn't jibe with the direction the comic was heading. Sure they attempted to adapt Sonic Adventure, but it was just such a clusterfuck of SatAM, Archie Sonic, and SEGA Sonic ideas. By that point I preferred the universe the games were building upon, and found the Archie universe to just be too much of a mess. It didn't help that Eggman, one of my favorite characters, had a diluted backstory (Kintober turned Robotnik turned dead turned alternate universe robotic Robotnik turned robotic Eggman turned humanified Eggman). And humans were so shoehorned in.

 

I'll also admit to not liking the Archie comics as much because of the SatAM connection. At the time ('92-'97), I loved them! It was the only place I could read AoStH/SatAM/video game adaptation stories. I guess I accepted the SatAM cast and original Archie Sonic characters, because the games themselves, and SEGA of America's localization, seemed to support the SatAM characters. 

 

However, I found that as the years went on post SatAM cancellation, the comics began to feel like an awkward element of the past that stuck around simply because the Archie writers were too afraid to reboot the series post SatAM cancellation. I was less excited by the SatAM cast and more confused as to why characters from a cancelled cartoon where still active in comic form, while the games themselves were going in a different direction. By the time Sonic Adventure released, I was annoyed that SEGA and Archie couldn't collaborate on a consistant Sonic universe, where both the games and comics told a cohesive story. Let's not forget that Sonic Underground was also airing at this time, so the Sonic series was very much all over the place when it came to various media depicting the Sonic universe. This is where brand management comes into play, and looking back, I guess at the time SEGA was doing a bad job at managing the Sonic brand.

 

I'll admit that since Ian Flynn came aboard, he has crafted a much better comic book, but I'm still not a fan of the SatAM cast as well as the many original comic book characters. But really, the MAJOR thing that I don't like is the world that the comic has created in some 250 issues. It's just too messy, with a hodgepodge of game elements, SatAM elements, time travel, humans coming and going, it's Mobius - no it's Earth, but not Earth. 

 

What I've loved so much about the world's collide crossover is that I've been able to read a Sonic story (with MegaMan involved) in which the characters are from the games, referencing the games, but are not adapting the games. Instead, they're using the game universe as a springboard for original stories and thus far it is working brilliantly. I love all the mentions of Westopolis, Station Square, Empire City, past battles, characters, and events. It makes me crave a Sonic comic where there is a large video game inspired universe to play in, where the games serve as the backstory, and new original tales can be told using pre-existing settings from past games. The games provide so much material, and I've seen Ian Flynn working with these materials in past arcs (Tails Adventure, Sonic Rush Adventure), but I would love to see a series that loses the Archie universe setting and instead has it all set on the Earth as seen in the games.

 

From what I'm seeing, signs are pointing toward the post world's collide story being what I'm hoping for. I could be wrong, but I would love it if when Sonic 252 arrives, we see the video game universe in all its glory (Unleashed continents, Genesis era islands, Angel Island, the various cities from SA1, SA2 and Shadow, Lost World floating above, Little Planet, Wisps) with the SatAM/Archie universe cast scaled back, redesigned, and used as additional animal characters. Give them new backstories fitting in with the video games. For example, Rotor could be from Holaska or Ice Cap. Or Sally and her kingdom could be a continent that rests near Sonic's islands.

 

I think such a move would be great for the brand, and would allow for much stronger adaptations. No longer do the comic staff have to fear fitting a game into the Archie universe, or writing a "another time, another place" quickie. Instead, they could go full adaptation AND following the adaptation the comic book universe is larger with the new game characters and locations in place. Who knows, depending on how Lost World ends, The Deadly Six could very well become another element to the comics. Could open doors to new stories. 

[Soniman]

Couldn't you get away with using the "Satam isn't relevant why use the characters?" argument for all the scrapped game characters like Mighty, Ray, Bean, and Bark? Who havent been relevant to the games for years though? Reason they are used is because they have a sizeable fanbase, and if the writers could find good use for them, then relevancy shouldnt matter that much.

[Kuzu]

Couldn't you get away with using the "Satam isn't relevant why use the characters?" argument for all the scrapped game characters like Mighty, Ray, Bean, and Bark? Who havent been relevant to the games for years though? Reason they are used is because they have a sizeable fanbase, and if the writers could find good use for them, then relevancy shouldnt matter that much.

 

Its not just about popularity or relevance, its about doing what makes sense for a good plot. Barry makes a good point in saying that the series has gotten kinda convoluted over the years, and I can easily see why someone would be fed up and want something more akin to the game universe. I know Flynn has tried his best to make things as cohesive as possible, but given all of the crap with Penders and other attempts at blending elements from SATAM and the games, its still kind of a clusterfuck. The crossover isn't dragged down by any of that baggage and its probably the most enjoyable arc for years, and all that needed to be done was rewrite the universe to be more akin to the games.

 

Nobody is saying "get rid of anything Archie related" but rather for the book to stop trying to be "SATAM with some Sonic elements" and just make something all around Sonic themed. 

[mistercokehold8]

I cant be the only one who doesnt want the comics to start featuring more of the games.

[Soniman]

@Azure

I know, and believe me I'm totally all for a semi-reboot (Ken kind of made it necessary at this point), I was just saying populartity/relevancy in and of itself shouldnt dictate a character's worth.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Gryo Man

[Kuzu]

@Azure

I know, and believe me I'm totally all for a semi-reboot (Ken kind of made it necessary at this point), I was just saying populartity/relevancy in and of itself shouldnt dictate a character's worth.

 

Popularity is what led to Shadow's increased role, and that's generally considered to be a bad thing.

 

I don't think popularity should be the only factor, but rather what the character can add in terms of personality and role.

[Barry the Nomad]

Couldn't you get away with using the "Satam isn't relevant why use the characters?" argument for all the scrapped game characters like Mighty, Ray, Bean, and Bark? Who havent been relevant to the games for years though? Reason they are used is because they have a sizeable fanbase, and if the writers could find good use for them, then relevancy shouldnt matter that much.

 

I'm taking SatAM as a whole. Personally and ideally, I could do without the entire cast, settings, and situations. In my ideal Sonic comic book, there would be no Sally or Mobotropolis or Mobius. Instead, there would be the game universe, from Sonic 1 through to Lost World, complete with all the characters, locations, and situations from the past 22+ years. I wouldn't call Mighty, Ray, Bean, and Bark "scrapped". Scrapped implied they were developed, but then never used in a game. Tiara Boobowski is scrapped. Mighty, Ray, Bean, and Bark are a part of the game universe's history, and as such they would absolutely exist in a SEGA Sonic comic book, just as other characters who no longer appear in games would appear (Chaos, Emerl, Big, Fang, Tikal and Marine). When I say I want a video game universe comic, I'm talking the entirety of the game universe all tied into one cohesive world. It should be noted that while Mighty, Ray, Bean, and Bark no longer appear in the games, all but Mighty made cameos in Generations. So they are active to a very small degree.

 

I enjoyed the old comics and cartoons at the time, but I'm all for wiping the slate clean and focusing on the video game universe. My main point is that I want a game universe comic book. I want Sonic's video game Earth complete with all the settings from the games. I don't want a long backstory as to why the humans are there, like the Archie comic presents, and I don't want Mobius. It's not that I hate the SatAM characters so much as I hate how convoluted and messy the comics have gotten. I don't want a soft reboot, I want a hard reboot.

 

---

 

Right now we have a comic book universe that began as a mix of SatAM and AoStH. Over time, that universe grew to support original characters, locations, and backstories. Some were good, some were bad. Various editors and writers reshaped and twisted past elements to suit future ones, over time making everything overly complicated. The video game universe really isn't that bad, in fact it's pretty awesome when viewed through a non-Archie, video game only, lens. What makes the video game universe bad is when it is adapted into the Archie/SatAM/AoStH/KenPenders Mobius universe. The game's are twisted to support the Archie Mobius, and vice versa. In the end, it's a mess.

 

Ideally, what I'd want, is a Sonic comic book universe based on the games. It is Earth, there are numerous settings from the games, all the characters have a backstory dictated by 22+ years of game stories. It's just far more simplistic than the Archie comics universe has been, and is much easier for both SEGA and Archie to deal with moving forward. Not to mention, it is far better for the brand to remain consistant across various media, and would make it far easier for Sonic video game fans, who have yet to get into the comics, get into the comics. The Freedom Fighters totally have a place in this universe. But rather than the games having to adapt to this massive comic universe, it would be the opposite. The comic book characters would adapt to the video game universe. The core comic book characters are there, but they're a Sonic comic book addition to the game universe.

 

Just as the Babylon Rogues have their place in the game universe, the Freedom Fighters could have their place in the game universe as appearing in the comic book adaptation. Sort of like if the Riders series is the spin-off featuring the Rogues, the Archie Sonic comics features the Freedom Fighters. Babylon Rogues don't appear in the main series games (well, there was a statue of Jet in Generations, but thats it) just as the Freedom Fighters don't appear in the main series games. However, it wouldn't mean they don't exist as a part of the Sonic universe.

 

If anything, it would make the Freedom Fighters far closer to being canon to the game universe, which I think would be an exciting concept for Archie Sonic fans. It would mean that while playing Lost World, fans could imagine that Sally and the other Freedom Fighters are elsewhere in the Sonic universe unseen, just as the Babylon Rogues are off somewhere unseen. Who knows? It could even lead to cameos or references in the games to the comics?

[Your Vest Friend]

It should be noted that while Mighty, Ray, Bean, and Bark no longer appear in the games, all but Mighty made cameos in Generations.

 

Mighty was right there with Ray. 

 

Also that idea would never be done Barry, it'd have to be either FFs in the games explicitly or they remain non-canon to the games. 

Edited July 15, 2013 by VEDJ-F

[Mega]

I still don't understand why there's this push to make other continuities more like the game. That takes away something special about having other universes-- game elements aren't bad, but a full-on game 'verse reboot would not sit well with me because, complicated or not, Archie is the last alt continuity still going. And I LIKE seeing works take their own spin on a series. Just look at the different Transformers series, Teen TItans, etc.

But maybe that's just me.

[Your Vest Friend]

Because the games are what the other continuities are ultimately advertisements for.

[Barry the Nomad]

Isn't there any room for varying levels of canon?

 

The game universe is first and foremost. Then the comic book universe, which is based on the games, is secondary with it's own original characters (the redesigned Freedom Fighters) in addition to all the past video game locations and characters.

 

In fact, I'm starting to wonder if that is where the comics are heading. Wasn't the Sonic 250 teaser stating that following World's Collide, one world will live and one will die. MegaMan comics appears to be right back in the MegaMan universe, as if nothing happened at all, which leads me to think that the Archie Sonic universe will be torn apart following world's collide, and Sonic and every other Sonic video game character seen in the crossover will remain in the game universe as seen in World's Collide. Eggman succeeds in destorying Mobius, the video game cast's minds are nearly wiped with small memories intact, and Sonic succeeds in saving some Mobius characters who in turn undergo a redesign to suit the video game inspired world.

 

I wouldn't be shocked if the redesigns are explained as the characters bodies and memories changing to suit the new reality. Perhaps even altering the game universe to a degree to fit in the Freedom Fighters.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Barry the Nomad

[Your Vest Friend]

Isn't there any room for varying levels of canon?

 

Not really, no. It is its own continuity, but not at all canon with the games in any way. 

 

On the one hand, there's the fact that there are plenty of games in the series already that have a confusing place in canon, let alone trying to add the comics into things.

 

Then there's the fact that about half the game audience can't get the comics easily. Cutting off a whole chunk of people like that isn't something Sonic Team would do. It'd be just as daft in a hypothetical where StC was the comic in question because the rest of Europe and America have the same issue, and it would have been stupid with the Manga because then everywhere but Japan were screwed, hence why the Manga aren't canon to game Amy and Charmy. 

Edited July 15, 2013 by VEDJ-F

[Mega]

I'm pretty sure Ian said it wasn't going to be a full on reboot, though. I doubt everything is going to change to the game universe, but more game elements and designs? I can see that happening.

Idk, like I said, I just like seeing different continuities set in their own world. Maybe it's because SatAM is how I got into Sonic in the first place, but I feel like you can capture the spirit of the franchise without going 100% game style. I mean, look at the OVA-- that universe captured the style of the classic games but still built its own world. I'd be okay with that kinda overhaul.

[Barry the Nomad]

Not really, no. It is its own continuity, but not at all canon with the games in any way. 

 

On the one hand, there's the fact that there are plenty of games in the series already that have a confusing place in canon, let alone trying to add the comics into things.

 

Then there's the fact that about half the game audience can't get the comics easily. Cutting off a whole chunk of people like that isn't something Sonic Team would do. It'd be just as daft in a hypothetical where StC was the comic in question because the rest of Europe and America have the same issue, and it would have been stupid with the Manga because then everywhere but Japan were screwed, hence why the Manga aren't canon to game Amy and Charmy. 

 

I think what I meant to get across was that I know the comic books will never be at the same level of canon as the games, and would be deemed their own continuity. But my hope for the future of the comics is that there is a lot less of a difference between the comics and the games, in the same way that one can pick up a Star Wars comic book and it gels with the movies. The comics won't dictate the games, however those who start reading the comics won't be thrown into this entirely different universe of Mobians and Ken Penders plot elements. It would be more like "the games and more" rather than "very different from the games but with some game elements supporting the world of Mobius".

 

Sort of like what I was saying with the Riders series, where it is different from the main series games, and as a spin-off does not dictate main series titles, but it still fits comfortably with the video games overall. 

 

I think back to some of the early SEGA Genesis adaptations, where they separated Sonic and Tails from the Freedom Fighters and temporarily had a quasi-video game adaptation. As a video game fan, it was fun, but it was very very clear that the Archie staff were attempting to create a bubble where some video game story would take place before Sonic and Tails would leave and return to the comic book world. Rather than these sort of situations, or "another time, another place", it would be far more exciting to be right there in the game universe, but additional adventures could occur utilizing the comic book characters. 

[Kuzu]

Well at this point, it just comes down to which universe you prefer. 

 

 

I personally never had a problem with Archie being its own thing despite how convoluted it was because it ultimately wasn't what I was invested in Sonic for, but rather the video games based on it.

[Aquaslash]

 

---

 

Right now we have a comic book universe that began as a mix of SatAM and AoStH. Over time, that universe grew to support original characters, locations, and backstories. Some were good, some were bad. Various editors and writers reshaped and twisted past elements to suit future ones, over time making everything overly complicated. The video game universe really isn't that bad, in fact it's pretty awesome when viewed through a non-Archie, video game only, lens. What makes the video game universe bad is when it is adapted into the Archie/SatAM/AoStH/KenPenders Mobius universe. The game's are twisted to support the Archie Mobius, and vice versa. In the end, it's a mess.

 

Ideally, what I'd want, is a Sonic comic book universe based on the games. It is Earth, there are numerous settings from the games, all the characters have a backstory dictated by 22+ years of game stories. It's just far more simplistic than the Archie comics universe has been, and is much easier for both SEGA and Archie to deal with moving forward. Not to mention, it is far better for the brand to remain consistant across various media, and would make it far easier for Sonic video game fans, who have yet to get into the comics, get into the comics. The Freedom Fighters totally have a place in this universe. But rather than the games having to adapt to this massive comic universe, it would be the opposite. The comic book characters would adapt to the video game universe. The core comic book characters are there, but they're a Sonic comic book addition to the game universe.

 

Just as the Babylon Rogues have their place in the game universe, the Freedom Fighters could have their place in the game universe as appearing in the comic book adaptation. Sort of like if the Riders series is the spin-off featuring the Rogues, the Archie Sonic comics features the Freedom Fighters. Babylon Rogues don't appear in the main series games (well, there was a statue of Jet in Generations, but thats it) just as the Freedom Fighters don't appear in the main series games. However, it wouldn't mean they don't exist as a part of the Sonic universe.

 

If anything, it would make the Freedom Fighters far closer to being canon to the game universe, which I think would be an exciting concept for Archie Sonic fans. It would mean that while playing Lost World, fans could imagine that Sally and the other Freedom Fighters are elsewhere in the Sonic universe unseen, just as the Babylon Rogues are off somewhere unseen. Who knows? It could even lead to cameos or references in the games to the comics?

 

These last few paragraphs are what sold this idea for me.  I admit to being something of a die hard fan of the old characters as the alt medias were the only Sonic product I had for a whopping seven years before I was able to ever get a Sonic game (and even then, it was Sonic 2) so for me, they are the epitome of "old school Sonic".  This concept isn't a complete purging of all non game elements, but something of a rewrite to make everything coherent.  That's an idea I can get behind because I do that crap all the time in my personal stuff, as seen in the spolier.

S Factor works under the pretense of Sonia being a traveling musician as opposed to a princess.

In a way, it's something like the Pokemon universe, where one media is practically an expansion of the other, and while the stories aren't canon to each other, there's nothing ruling out the characters from appearing in either (ignoring the whole Ash/Red discrepancy)  This is something I've always wanted in Sonic as a whole, so I could dig such a change if that's the end goal. (cause god dammit, a Sonic/Shadow/Scourge/Metal Sonic competition needs to goddamn happen and be controllable)

[Dejablue]

Lol why do some people need the comics to line up with the games canon wise? That's so anal. Nobody gives this kind of shit about the Zelda "timeline". The people who do waste their time because the game developers hardly do. They made up a timeline to give something to the fans and it didn't even make sense! Is LoZ any worse for that? No?

 

No.

 

I mean it'd be kind of difficult. Everytime they have a cohesive story going on "Well shit now we have to strong arm the plot to move in this direction  on the whim of this new game coming out." 

 

Sega isn't even trying to tell a story with its games. But if Archie has to include every game in the story it will just go the way of the clusterfuck again won't it? The only way to avoid this is to not give the comic a story. And if it doesn't have a story why read it?

Edited July 15, 2013 by Dejablue

[Chooch]

The comic needs to line up to the game universe to some extent because it's a fucking Sonic comic before it's anything else and that's the way it should be.

 

The reason this Penders shit is even a thing is because of the extreme amount of control the writers themselves had for so many years. Sega isn't abolishing any sort of attempts at making a engrossing story, they're just not giving the writer the ability to do whatever they want to.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Chooch

[Soniman]

I was always a Sonic comic to me (the fact that it stars Sonic and has Sonic-y elements and features Sonic character kinda helped me to consider it as such), just a different type of Sonic comic that wasn't rooted in the game universe.

[Dejablue]

Yeah nobody is arguing against that. At least I'm not. But did you get what I was trying to say?

 

Also, I'm not sure what you guys think makes it "Sonic" was SatAM and AoStH not "Sonic" ?

 

Were those impostor Sonics?

Edited July 15, 2013 by Dejablue

[Chooch]

I'm just kind of sick of people insinuating that Sega is against decent stories and that it's suddenly wrong for them to have some control over what is quite obviously theirs.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Chooch

[Nepenthe]

bwrosas, I'm not sure why you reposted that rant because it had little to so with what Deja was saying.

[Dejablue]

I hope you're not saying that I'm insinuating that. I'm just saying if the comics are going to line up with the games...

 

Which freaking game?

[Nepenthe]

The games have their own universe. It doesn't need to be a specific one or series of games.

[Dejablue]

So how would that work in the comic? 

 

I mean seriously all I can see is people getting pissy like they are now just for different reasons.  The story has no choice but to fly off into its own bubble continuity  if the writers are going to give us an ongoing story.  Meaning it can't just stop and wait for a new Sonic game to propel it forward.  And when a new game does come out the comic will have to include it in its framework/universe.  Maybe be easy with some games and harder for others. Either way it will invariably go the way of the clusterfuck again and you guys will be crying. Again.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Dejablue