Sonic 4 Playtested By Community Member

[Tyranno]

The thing is, this wasn't taken from some place where people could easily grab it like the website.

This was taken off of the developer's network.

Something he should, if he has legitimate access to, NOT BE FLAUNTING AROUND. Seriously, if everything on that was meant to be seen all the time by everyone, it wouldn't be locked up like that.

[Aquaslash]

If you ask me, they deserve to have this pitiful rehash leaked all over the place. Did you see that jump? All the months of hard work, and THAT'S all they can come up with?

What, you expect everyone to just wait til the game comes out and waste their money on what ends up being a piece of shit? I don't care if it's just $5, I can buy a sandwich with that, and be much happier for it.

Also you really think Sonic Retro, a site which specializes in reverse engineering Sonic games, would be one to stop the spread of these leaks? You seriously need a reality check homes.

Like people have said, even if you did stop on the boards, there's IRC chats, instant messengers, the god damn CHANS of all places.

Seriously dude, once it's out, it's out, and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Agent York]

I agree with the website leaks.

I don't agree with the network leaks. I mean, it's not like Sonic 4 being up on that is some shattering news, all XBLA games need to go up there and are required for developers to test. But they have specific rules and laws that you're not supposed to talk about what's up on PartnerNET.

So to all the people saying "LOLZ it's SEGA's fault because it was open to the public!"... No, it's not. This is a system Microsoft requires with Developer Consoles, they are required to put the game up. It states quite clearly developers are not allowed to talk about what games are up on PartnerNET.

PartnerNET was made for BETA testing.

Why does everyone say this is the final build of the game? It freaking says on the PartnerNET rules, and I quote: "Xbox Live network used by developers to beta test game content downloads"

This could very well be a BETA.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Dusk the Biohazard Keeper

[Tyranno]

What Sonic Retro is likely to do is not the same as what is or isn't right.

If you ask me, they deserve to have this pitiful rehash leaked all over the place. Did you see that jump? All the months of hard work, and THAT'S all they can come up with?

What, you expect everyone to just wait til the game comes out and waste their money on what ends up being a piece of shit? I don't care if it's just $5, I can buy a sandwich with that, and be much happier for it.

This isn't something you have the right to be entitled about. This isn't something you get to decide. This is a matter of common decency.

This is WRONG.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Razorsaw

[Aquaslash]

This isn't something you have the right to be entitled about. This isn't something you get to decide. This is a matter of common decency.

This is WRONG.

SCREW common decency. If they didn't want their slag leaked all over the place, they should have taken better care of it. Don't you dare try to hold me or anyone else accountable to your pitiful standards of right and wrong. It's the most pretentious thing you could conceivably do. Especially over the internet, of all things.

I'm NOT going to ignore all the leaks and spend my money on a poor product. If anything, I'm gonna take your money and use it on said product if I must play the full thing for an informed opinion.

Like I said earlier, you need a reality check homes. It's great that you wanna take the moral high ground and "support Sega" and all (and frankly, I don't know why, the PR for this game is garbage), but expect to mostly be alone in that.

AT the end of the day, Sega is a business and are trying to take your hard earned cash. You might be a rich mofo with all sorts of disposable income, but I'm sure not. They gotta earn my cash, and if things come ahead of time to help me make that judgment, then don't whine at me for looking.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Aquaslash

[Agent York]

SCREW common decency. If they didn't want their slag leaked all over the place, they should have taken better care of it. Don't you dare try to hold me or anyone else accountable to your pitiful standards of right and wrong. It's the most pretentious thing you could conceivably do. Especially over the internet, of all things.

I'm NOT going to ignore all the leaks and spend my money on a poor product. If anything, I'm gonna take your money and use it on said product if I must play the full thing for an informed opinion.

Like I said earlier, you need a reality check homes. It's great that you wanna take the moral high ground and "support Sega" and all (and frankly, I don't know why, the PR for this game is garbage), but expect to mostly be alone in that.

AT the end of the day, Sega is a business and are trying to take your hard earned cash. You might be a rich mofo with all sorts of disposable income, but I'm sure not. They gotta earn my cash, and if things come ahead of time to help me make that judgment, then don't whine at me for looking.

I'm not blaming you at looking ,just how you're treating it. This isn't even a leak of proper but a direct violation of the law we're getting this info. Look, I'm getting tired by all of this, I think I'm starting another new topic to explain to people what the hell PartnerNET even is.

[Tyranno]

I'm a 25 year old who lives with his parents living off of an SSI check every month.

The thing is? Everything you say you want? Could be obtained. Legally, fairly, whatever. You honestly think every facet of this game is going to be hidden like the friggin ark of the covenant from here until May? That Sega has no budget or plan of promotion? And even if that happened by some miracle, you would have still been able to get this from all the reviews that come from professional or amateur critics. You would have gotten what you needed anyway.

You are behaving like a spoiled CHILD.

In the end, Sega may just be in it for the money, but you know what? They OWN Sonic. They are putting the man hours into this. The have earned the right to have a sense of propriety about their own product. Why can people not own the shit they create and decide what the hell to do with it?

Because you need to make an informed decision you would have been able to make ANYWAY?

Hell, I've seen Sonic fans show a sense of propriety and defensiveness about their own fan games. Something that is made from borrowing an IP and risking absolutely nothing. This flies in the face of Sega, of Microsoft, and the spirit of creating anything in general. This violates Partner Net's user agreement. This. Is. Theft.

But you probably don't give a damn because you contribute nothing and take everything. Because you more than likely think Sonic belongs more to you than the people who own him. Maybe they're not the best developers. Maybe they have stepped away from what Sonic should be about.

But the lot of you? Are no better. You are shallow, pedantic, selfish people who cling to an image of the past and like to fight amongst yourselves. You abide thievery, and then say it's the victim's fault when someone breaches a matter of professional obligation.

You can be respectful about a freaking fan made game. A fanmade game.

And the best justification you can give me for this behavior is that you don't want to spend five freaking dollars.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Razorsaw

[Aquaslash]

I'm not blaming you at looking ,just how you're treating it. This isn't even a leak of proper but a direct violation of the law we're getting this info. Look, I'm getting tired by all of this, I think I'm starting another new topic to explain to people what the hell PartnerNET even is.

Yes, it's unfortunate that things were violated and all, but do you honestly expect people to ignore it once it's out in the open?

I mean slag. I had the same exact slag happen to me last year. I posted a beta of my hack, "The S Factor: Sonia and Silver" in the Tech Lounge in Sonic Retro to get some opinions and C+C from all the tech staff, as well as bug reports. However, one of them turned traitor while I was unable to access the internet and not only did they attempt to wipe Retro off the net, but they leaked my game all over the place.

By the time I found out, it had likely been out there for at least a month. What could I do, track down everyone who had a copy and tell them to delete it? Who would have listened? I think the LPs were even popping up on YouTube already. Granted, I'm a mod there, and I could have banned all discussion on the forums about the leaks, and the rest of the staff would have backed me up, but what was the point? I'm not staff everywhere, people would have ignored my cried anyway. (for the record, I just ended up releasing the current build at the time)

So I say to Sega the same thing I said to myself. Tough slag. Next time take better precautionary measures.

[Tyranno]

Let's check this off, then.

1. Partner Net is... Microsoft's thing, isn't it? Thus, aren't security measures their deal?

and

2. Isn't Enri part of a localization company, thus making him the responsibility of his employers?

What would you have Sega do then? Something involving pixi dust?

[Aquaslash]

I'm gonna regret not attaching the words smiley to this blather and writing it off.

I'm a 25 year old who lives with his apparents living off of an SSI check every month.

So? I'm 23 and in those same conditions.

The thing is? Everything you say you want? Could be obtained. Legally, fairly, whatever. You honestly think every facet of this game is going to be hidden like the friggin ark of the covenant from here until May? That Sega has no budget or plan of promotion? And even if that happened by some miracle, you would have still been able to get this from all the reviews that come from professional or amateur critics. You would have gotten what you needed anyway.

This is true, but I bet you'd have whined like a faggot anyway. Probably one of those "oh maybe episode II will be better" fools.

You are behaving like a spoiled CHILD.

Because being a pretentious douche is better?

In the end, Sega may just be in it for the money,

News flash homes, they are.

but you know what? They OWN Sonic. They are putting the man hours into this. The have earned the right to have a sense of propriety about their own product. Why can people not own the shit they create and decide what the hell to do with it?

I missed the part where anyone said they couldn't!

Because you need to make an informed decision you would have been able to make ANYWAY?

I can put words in your mouth too, but it does nothing to prove my point

Hell, I've seen Sonic fans show a sense of propriety and defensiveness about their own fan games. Something that is made from borrowing an IP and risking absolutely nothing. This flies in the face of Sega, of Microsoft, and the spirit of creating anything in general. This violates Partner Net's user agreement. This. Is. Theft.

Are you also gonna tell me that the grass is green?

But you probably don't give a damn because you contribute nothing and take everything. Because you more than likely think Sonic belongs more to you than the people who own him. Maybe they're not the best developers. Maybe they have stepped away from what Sonic should be about.

What the freak am I supposed to contribute? I'm not a freaking professional game dev! I'm just a mere consumer.

But the lot of you? Are no better. You are shallow, pedantic, selfish people who cling to an image of the past and like to fight amongst yourselves. You abide thievery, and then say it's the victim's fault when someone breaches a matter of professional obligation

First off, way to generalize everyone. Second, welcome to the INTERNET. Thievery runs rampant, and you're an ignorant fool if you think you can stop it.

You can be respectful about a freaking fan made game. A fanmade game.

And the best justification you can give me for this behavior is that you don't want to spend five freaking dollars.

Bitch, it's my freaking five dollars, I can spend it however the freak I want to! Screw you for trying to tell me otherwise!

Seriously, get your head out of your freaking ass and wake up to reality! If everyone did what was right, we'd have world freaking peace. Or are you gonna tell me I can just leave my freaking doors open and expect not to get robbed?

That said, I'm done with you. I've wasted enough time arguing about morals over a freakin VIDEO GAME. I already have to deal with that slag from GerbilSoft. I don't need your whining too!

Let's check this off, then.

1. Partner Net is... Microsoft's thing, isn't it? Thus, aren't security measures their deal?

and

2. Isn't Endri part of a localization company, thus making him the responsibility of his employers?

What would you have Sega do then? Something involving pixie dust?

First off, Endri's not responsible for this latest leak. In fact, all he did was talk. Someone else posted the screen and video.

Also I don't know if you've noticed, but they've deleted all the topics on their forums, and C&D everyone they possibly could. They're probably tracking down and firing people as we speak. Even so, their efforts are still futile. The data's out there, and all they can do is release a decent game in the midst of all of this.

Of course, getting Sega to release a decent game is like winning a million dollars from a lottery ticket.

[Thirsty Pocket]

It was about impressions of Sonic 4, which implied Sonic advance 2 style level design, but other than that, said things we could have guessed from the alpha video.

[azoo]

I thought he was pointing more towards Sadv2 styled gameplay actually. Like said many pages back (since I'm sure nobody heard through the flamewars) that the game seems to have level design more like Sadv1, and that's not a bad thing.

[turbojet]

First off, Endri's not responsible for this latest leak. In fact, all he did was talk. Someone else posted the screen and video.

And he is probably going to get sued to hell and back for it.

[nuckles87]

Of course, getting Sega to release a decent game is like winning a million dollars from a lottery ticket.

SEGA's been doing that since before you where born, and still do it today . I think your thinking of Sonic Team.

[SykoTech]

Silly nuckles. Sonic fans are clearly incapable of making a distinction between Sonic Team and Sega.

[Tornado]

Yes.

Yes I would.

You are blanketing every and all reactions, regardless of their reasoning, validity or even emotion, as whining. You've done it multiple times since you started this crusade. Its pretty obvious to me that you're bitching about the leaks existing because you are sick of the reactions rather than the leaks themselves. So, no, I really doubt you would have.

Yes, the leaks are unfortunate. Yes, laws were obviously broken when things were leaked in the first place. And yes, I hope whoever did the leaks is prosecuted for whatever specifically laws they did break if Sega wants to pursue doing so. But you can pucker up if you are going to sit there and preach to me how we shouldn't even comment on the information after it does come out. You specifically stated that you didn't want to be painted as a communist or something, but it sure as hell sounds like you want exactly that sort of situation.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Tornado

[Tyranno]

You are blanketing every and all reactions, regardless of their reasoning, validity or even emotion, as whining. You've done it multiple times since you started this crusade. Its pretty obvious to me that you're bitching about the leaks existing because you are sick of the reactions rather than the leaks themselves. So, no, I really doubt you would have.

Except that the person I was arguing with was JUSTIFYING this because it allowed them to create their negative reactions - their whining. Considering Aquaslash was heavily reliant on hyberbole and vitriol as well as righteous indignation instead of well founded opinions, that's honestly what it came off as.

Yes, the leaks are unfortunate. Yes, laws were obviously broken when things were leaked in the first place. And yes, I hope whoever did the leaks is prosecuted for whatever specifically laws they did break if Sega wants to pursue doing so. But you can pucker up if you are going to sit there and preach to me how we shouldn't even comment on the information after it does come out. You specifically stated that you didn't want to be painted as a communist or something, but it sure as hell sounds like you want exactly that sort of situation.

The thing is, the longer we perpetuate this, the longer we increase its exposure. It's not a matter of sanctioning free speech just because I don't like it, it's because continuing to do so SPREADS THIS AND HURTS SEGA FURTHER.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Razorsaw

[Thirsty Pocket]

I thought he was pointing more towards Sadv2 styled gameplay actually. Like said many pages back (since I'm sure nobody heard through the flamewars) that the game seems to have level design more like Sadv1, and that's not a bad thing.

If thats true, I'll be as happy as a clam. After all, Sonic Adv. 1 was MY Sonic 4.

But thought Sonic Adv 2 only played differently from 1, because the levels were designed for "hold right to win" situations ( with a small increase in Spees for Sonic himself )... But hey, it's been a long time since I played any of the Advance games.

[Slingerland]

I'm sorry, everyone.

I'll just. Stop now.

Except that the person I was arguing with was JUSTIFYING this because it allowed them to create their negative reactions - their whining. Considering Aquaslash was heavily reliant on hyberbole and vitriol as well as righteous indignation instead of well founded opinions, that's honestly what it came off as.

The thing is, the longer we perpetuate this, the longer we increase its exposure. It's not a matter of sanctioning free speech just because I don't like it, it's because continuing to do so SPREADS THIS AND HURTS SEGA FURTHER.

So, are you stopping or what?

Remember when you did this kind of thing around Unleashed time and then you ended up apologizing to me and everybody you decided to antagonize? Let's not have that happen again. Come on, Razordawg.

[Tyranno]

... Very well.

[Machenstein]

I think what we all really want in the end is for Sega to show us more of the game. We are all desperate for some reassurance that this game will live up to our expectations in some way or another, but because we are not getting that reassurance, we are lashing out at Sega in hopes that they will cave in and show us something that may provide us that reassurance. We really are concerned for this game, especially considering what's at stake this time.

I think if we calm down for a little bit, Sega might be more comfortable releasing more official media of the game. But at this point, they might be too cautious to show us anything more considering the reactions they've probably seen on this message board and other places, not to mention the leaks.

[Sparks]

I think what we all really want in the end is for Sega to show us more of the game. We are all desperate for some reassurance that this game will live up to our expectations in some way or another, but because we are not getting that reassurance, we are lashing out at Sega in hopes that they will cave in and show us something that may provide us that reassurance. We really are concerned for this game, especially considering what's at stake this time.

I think if we calm down for a little bit, Sega might be more comfortable releasing more official media of the game. But at this point, they might be too cautious to show us anything more considering the reactions they've probably seen on this message board and other places, not to mention the leaks.

Agreed, Sega is probably scared if they show something new from the game, it will be received with negative criticism.

Even if Sonic 4 ends up being a FUN 2D Sonic game. There will still be people nitpicking little details when the game is released. (captain ovbious)

Oh and I wonder why Endri and many other people believe that Sonic 4 is done? Makes no sense to be honest. I know I'll probably get a bunch of classic elitists/pessimists trying to spin this, but whatever.

[Dark Qiviut]

Y'know...this is something that needs to seriously be addressed. Razorsaw, Dusk, and Kintor explained the consequences well (and are, frankly, the few people with BRAINS in the last few pages in this topic; Razorsaw, you should take back your apology), but there's more.

Leaks happen, we know that. They're an illegal shame, but they happen.

But after looking at all the leaking and seeing research behind the big post by Endri, it seems so many of you people just don't get it. Just DON'T.

One big problem about leaks is copyright. You just can't take a piece of info and spill it out. In Sonic 4's case, this is exactly the case, especially with the levels and their will to try to make the game be classic-like functionally. They were mum about the game for months for a good reason. It's a protection of copyright. Leaks are considered copyright infringement. Sometimes, it IS Sega's fault for not putting the info under tighter security, but that's still a violation regardless.

For the latest ones with Sonic 4, the fault is squarely on the people who play it, especially the gameplay structure leak by Endri. And this is what he did really pissed me off.

Not only did Endri violate copyright, but he FLAUNTED it and BRAGGED about it PUBLICLY.

Endri played the game on PartnerNET, and there's a contract saying that he can't say ANYTHING about it. Freedom of speech -- if anyone dares play that card, they're going to be torn a new one -- be damned here. Unless he had permission by Sega, Microsoft, and every other party, he was not allowed under law to expose the game's content or risk getting into trouble. Like courts putting the defense attorney, prosecutor, and everyone silent, he was put under a gag order.

Endri VIOLATED it when he made that announcement.

He VIOLATED contract agreement with PartnerNet.

He and others are taking content and exposing it without a CARE for copyright. Endri's posts are equivalent to saying "You ruined my expectations, Sega! So I'll ruin yours, too, and hope you never get a penny from this game!" Do anyone of you guys know how BAD this is from both a LEGAL and MORAL standpoint? He's almost spoiled the game and reviewed it publicly without permission from all parties.

The minute he made that first post, he was in big legal trouble, and Endri doesn't give a CRAP about it.

What made it worse was that the rumor that he had the coding secrets for the physics, graphics, and everything else about the game, and he was going to RELEASE it. That's stealing and one of the biggest violations of copyright you can think of, both legally and morally. He's basically supporting people to bootleg Sonic 4's coding and telling people, "I have the beans. Take them, please." Somehow, he took the content from Sonic 4 and may use them for his own sick, immoral purposes.

The minute he threatened to spill the beans on top secret info, then Sega had every right to SUE HIM. And after seeing these bragged posts on Retro and the posts about PartnerNET, that C&D letter is now the least of his worries. He can really expect a HUGE lawsuit -- possibly tens of millions of dollars if S4 doesn't sell well -- and a prosecution to the fullest extent of the law. In fact, Sonic Retro -- where the leak originated -- may be in big trouble, too. I won't be surprised if Retro could be sought after by Sega if Sonic 4 doesn't fair well.

It's not just a theft, a violation of Sega's NDA and privacy that Endri admitted, but it's one of the most heinous disrespects of copyright infringement that I've ever seen. Endri shows through his posts that he doesn't care about Sega's copyright at all and desperately wants to ruin their finances. Whether the game succeeds critically or not, Endri has possibly put the future episodes of Sonic 4 on the line through this leak and the subsequent gag order violation. Why? Because he's spoiling the game, and his puppets are helping him out. Whether he says so or not, I think Endri's helping people lurk out and leak the info with clues or info that we don't see online. And he, like what Kintor said, is going to make Sega lose a LOT of trust with the fanbase that they're trying to reconnect after the disaster with NG and Sonic Genesis.

Anyone who truly cares about Sonic 4 would not support his actions or condone the leaking (if you do support the leaking, you're an IDIOT!). Instead, they'd be really embarrassed. Endri -- as he's basically condoning piracy, is still attempting to violate copyright by finding "loopholes" in that C&D warning, and doesn't care about getting fired during a time where finding jobs is hard as it is -- embarrassed me as someone with a passion for copyright and really embarrassed me as a Sonic fan. It makes me sick to my stomach just writing about it.

And anyone who goes to the official FTP Sonic 4 access site and touches a file deserves to be in big trouble, too. Unless legally granted, that's info you should NOT look at. Ever. The minute you step on that access site and touch a file, you can be in big trouble with the company. Sega can track you down, bar your IP from ever accessing the site again, and sue you. You tread on criminal waters the second you enter those files. You don't want a felony on your criminal record and lose lots of money from a lawsuit that Sega has a good case with, do you?

Edited February 27, 2010 by Dark Qiviut

[Tornado]

*Words.*

ITT, people state the obvious.

As far as I can tell, no one has ever said what Endri did was legal, so you aren't saying anything everyone doesn't already know.

And anyone who goes to the official FTP Sonic 4 access site and touches a file deserves to be in big trouble, too. Unless legally granted, that's info you should NOT look at. Ever. The minute you step on that access site and touch a file, you can be in big trouble with the company. Sega can track you down, bar your IP from ever accessing the site again, and sue you. You tread on criminal waters the second you enter those files. You don't want a felony on your criminal record and lose lots of money from a lawsuit that Sega has a good case with, do you?

This is nonsense, though. Any chances of Sega taking legal action against people in such a situation would cease to exist when it became obvious how stupid it was to place classified data on a public FTP server in the first place.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Tornado

[Aquaslash]

Where the hell do you chumps get off criticizing MORALS on the internet? If I wanted to hear the things I did were wrong, I'd go to a church or something.

Aside from that, was there a point to that drivel, or do you like making walls of text?

Agreed, Sega is probably scared if they show something new from the game, it will be received with negative criticism.

Even if Sonic 4 ends up being a FUN 2D Sonic game. There will still be people nitpicking little details when the game is released. (captain ovbious)

To be fair, you CAN'T please everyone ever. I don't know why Sega is even trying.