Sonic 4 Playtested By Community Member

[turbojet]

Where the hell do you chumps get off criticizing MORALS on the internet? If I wanted to hear the things I did were wrong, I'd go to a church or something.

I agree with you. But it wasn't on the internet and it was a business deal. He violated it. The thing is...that isn't the point he should be trying make. Endri reviewed an unfinished game. A game still in development. Thats not fair for Sonic Team, Dimps, or the fans. But you make seem as if you were Endri? I'm curious now.

This is nonsense, though. Any chances of Sega taking legal action against people in such a situation would cease to exist when it became obvious how stupid it was to place classified data on a public FTP server in the first place.

Except it wasn't public. As in it's not something everyone has access to.

[Tornado]

Ah. My mistake then. I was under the impression that it was the same mess as the leak from the end of last year was.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Tornado

[Dark Qiviut]

Where the hell do you chumps get off criticizing MORALS on the internet? If I wanted to hear the things I did were wrong, I'd go to a church or something.

Aside from that, was there a point to that drivel, or do you like making walls of text?

...

Are you this daft?

You don't get the magnitude of this, do you?! It's not just the leak, but the WAY it was leaked and HOW MUCH it was leaked. Endri's gloating this leak, violated the Terms of Service of PartnerNET, and he's stolen the codes. The damn FOUNDATION of the game's in his hands right now as I'm typing, and he's willing to release it and violate the C&D warning. He's in so much trouble right now, and he doesn't care. He's risking getting himself bankrupt and spending YEARS behind bars. Plus, Sonic 4 could financially flop, and the rest of the episodes are in serious jeopardy right now. All because Endri acted like an arrogant moron and is still possibly helping them out through "loopholes."

And it ain't just he who can get in trouble. Sonic Retro may expect legal trouble, too. That area is where many of the leaks are coming from, with Endri's being the biggest. The very second he made that post, if anyone of these admins had a working brain, they would've stepped in there, deleted the entire thread, and reported Endri to Sega and the local authorities of Brazil. But instead, the mods and admins (you, Tweaker, and anyone else who works and moderates the whole website) acted like brain-dead rejects and supported this travesty. Anyone who's smart and using intelligence would've interfered and threatened anyone to never leak anything again or risk getting a tainted criminal record. Retro's in really hot water because the maintainers acted irresponsibly and are condoning Endri's actions. There's going to be serious consequences, and it won't be a slap on the wrist. It's lawsuits. HUGE ones because they might've caused so much damage to the game's development and its finances.

The next time you post something like that again, actually READ the content and not act ignorant. Read my long post. UNDERSTAND it. It's not a "take it or leave it" stride as most leaks are. There's a lot more at stake here as a result of Endri's leak, and only a few people actually get it and understand the consequences.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Dark Qiviut

[Derg]

Plus, Sonic 4 could financially flop, and the rest of the episodes are in serious jeopardy right now.

If Sonic 06 didn't flop, the probability of a "nostalgic/classic" continuation of the "classic series" themed 2D Sonic game selling worse would be IMMENSELY unlikely. Most of the general public won't even hear of this/not care about this, so this will probably sell great anyways. If the fate of the future episodes is going to be decided in some way, it's going to be based on the previous episode(s) quality, but, the only thing that is probably going to be effected is the review scores, with little possibility of affecting the game selling poorly

[psikeout]

This is another one of those threads that makes me feel bad for liking Sonic Advance 2. I guess everybody's got their affections for a dud game, though.

This guy's report is kind of a buzzkill for me, but I think I'm gonna go against common sense and continue to be (sort of neutrally) optimistic about this game, anyway. It's a 2D console Sonic. At least they're... kinda trying, right? I'unno. It just doesn't feel like it should be an automatic "GIVE UP ALL HOPE OF FUN NOW."

[Aquaslash]

...

Are you this daft?

That's a question you should ask yourself.

You don't get the magnitude of this, do you?! It's not just the leak, but the WAY it was leaked and HOW MUCH it was leaked. Endri's gloating this leak, violated the Terms of Service of PartnerNET, and he's stolen the codes. The damn FOUNDATION of the game's in his hands right now as I'm typing, and he's willing to release it and violate the C&D warning.

No he's not, you ignorant tool. If you had actually paid attention, you'd have heard that he shat bricks at the C&D and backed away from the whole sitch.

He's in so much trouble right now, and he doesn't care. He's risking getting himself bankrupt and spending YEARS behind bars. Plus, Sonic 4 could financially flop, and the rest of the episodes are in serious jeopardy right now. All because Endri acted like an arrogant moron and is still possibly helping them out through "loopholes."

And it ain't just he who can get in trouble. Sonic Retro may expect legal trouble, too. That area is where many of the leaks are coming from, with Endri's being the biggest. The very second he made that post, if anyone of these admins had a working brain, they would've stepped in there, deleted the entire thread, and reported Endri to Sega and the local authorities of Brazil. But instead, the mods and admins (you, Tweaker, and anyone else who works and moderates the whole website) acted like brain-dead rejects and supported this travesty. Anyone who's smart and using intelligence would've interfered and threatened anyone to never leak anything again or risk getting a tainted criminal record. Retro's in really hot water because the maintainers acted irresponsibly and are condoning Endri's actions. There's going to be serious consequences, and it won't be a slap on the wrist. It's lawsuits. HUGE ones because they might've caused so much damage to the game's development and its finances.

The next time you post something like that again, actually READ the content and not act ignorant. Read my long post. UNDERSTAND it. It's not a "take it or leave it" stride as most leaks are. There's a lot more at stake here as a result of Endri's leak, and only a few people actually get it and understand the consequences.

ITC: Stating the obvious, overreacting, and making walls of text, at the same time. Can you pull a rabbit out of your hat too?

EDIT: Quote tag failure

Edited February 27, 2010 by Aquaslash

[Scarred Sun]

And it ain't just he who can get in trouble. Sonic Retro may expect legal trouble, too. That area is where many of the leaks are coming from, with Endri's being the biggest. The very second he made that post, if anyone of these admins had a working brain, they would've stepped in there, deleted the entire thread, and reported Endri to Sega and the local authorities of Brazil. But instead, the mods and admins (you, Tweaker, and anyone else who works and moderates the whole website) acted like brain-dead rejects and supported this travesty. Anyone who's smart and using intelligence would've interfered and threatened anyone to never leak anything again or risk getting a tainted criminal record. Retro's in really hot water because the maintainers acted irresponsibly and are condoning Endri's actions. There's going to be serious consequences, and it won't be a slap on the wrist. It's lawsuits. HUGE ones because they might've caused so much damage to the game's development and its finances.

Could you overreact and be hysterical any more than you already are?

Worry about your own problems and we'll worry about ours.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Video game leaks have suddenly become SERIOUS BUSINESS, I see.

And anyone who goes to the official FTP Sonic 4 access site and touches a file deserves to be in big trouble, too. Unless legally granted, that's info you should NOT look at. Ever. The minute you step on that access site and touch a file, you can be in big trouble with the company. Sega can track you down, bar your IP from ever accessing the site again, and sue you. You tread on criminal waters the second you enter those files. You don't want a felony on your criminal record and lose lots of money from a lawsuit that Sega has a good case with, do you?

...as is FTP usage?

WAT

[Spanner]

It's SEGA's fault if they can't lock down areas properly such as the FTP and their website, which had comments specifically on what not to do in case shit got leaked, which the designers ignored.

[Tornado]

And it ain't just he who can get in trouble. Sonic Retro may expect legal trouble, too. That area is where many of the leaks are coming from, with Endri's being the biggest. The very second he made that post, if anyone of these admins had a working brain, they would've stepped in there, deleted the entire thread, and reported Endri to Sega and the local authorities of Brazil. But instead, the mods and admins (you, Tweaker, and anyone else who works and moderates the whole website) acted like brain-dead rejects and supported this travesty. Anyone who's smart and using intelligence would've interfered and threatened anyone to never leak anything again or risk getting a tainted criminal record. Retro's in really hot water because the maintainers acted irresponsibly and are condoning Endri's actions. There's going to be serious consequences, and it won't be a slap on the wrist. It's lawsuits. HUGE ones because they might've caused so much damage to the game's development and its finances.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Nobody at Sonic Retro said "Endri, go steal that code so we can talk about it." You can't file a HUGE lawsuit towards someone for discussing information when that someone had nothing to do with getting the information, nor does simply discussing it mean that you condone how the information was collected. The most you can do is go after the source.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Tornado

[turbojet]

It's SEGA's fault if they can't lock down areas properly such as the FTP and their website, which had comments specifically on what not to do in case shit got leaked, which the designers ignored.

You are new here. We have this topic already that proves it's not Sega's fault at all. It's Microsoft's.

@Dark Qiviut, Dude, you are overreacting. Endri didn't end the Sonic world as we know it. Sure, he may have misreviewed an unfinished game but I think most people here understand that. Cynics are going to be cynical about their $5(if that is even the price anymore) regardless if this game is good or not. Just chill.

[Badnik Zero]

Ugh. You know with as much doubting Endri as we did, even after Slinger and people from Retro said his word was good, how do we think that other people are gonna take this rumor seriously? Also, we don't know how many sources these leaks are coming from. It's really not as dramatic as you want it to be. Whatever NDAs have been broken, that's between Sega and the employee. Really has nothing to do with the rest of us. I know I didn't sign a contract with Sega. And it's not like we're profiting from the information at a loss to Sega. You're making it out like this is information piracy, whatever that is. It's kinda dumb ya know.

[Dark Qiviut]

No he's not, you ignorant tool. If you had actually paid attention, you'd have heard that he shat bricks at the C&D and backed away from the whole sitch.

I did read it, through and through. He should be scared. In fact, even MORE so. But I really doubt he's taking it as seriously as he claimed, especially with many of the leaks coming from Retro and his subsequent responses. The second he threatened to leak everything, he's lost credibility, and that C&D threat should be an indicator. There are those aside from myself who think he's still up to something. Sega is likely keeping a really close watch on that snake's IP.

ITC: Stating the obvious, overreacting, and making walls of text, at the same time. Can you pull a rabbit out of your hat too?

Okay, I'll bite. I did overreact a bit and did overstate some. Will there be a lawsuit coming? There could be, but there may not be. It depends on circumstances such as:

1. Possibly a lack of profit. Because of this leak, a lot of people will keep that rumor in the back of their mind, even if they don't believe him. People may be lazy, but they're not stupid. A Google search with the right words will lead to him and that leak. Once the game gets released, and if Endri's right, chances are they may not try it and spend $5 elsewhere. Loss of money there. And if it's possibly a lot of people, then this accumulates.

2. PartnerNet: As said before, Endri might've violated a tight gag order, and therefore breaking copyright laws. This leads to these...

3. What Endri said was a lie. That may be the case here, yet after seeing all the rumor reports censored on the Sega Forums, even one may have some suspicions.

4. If Endri hacked into the site. We don't know for sure, but if Endri hacked into PartnerNet to play that game, then the possibility of a lawsuit will be an absolute. Not just from Sega, but Microsoft and possibly many other companies, too. Sega's keeping under tight wraps, and they're still very angry. That C&D letter is the least of his worries for now.

...as is FTP usage?

WAT

Yes. That's why you don't see sites link to FTPs. It's info you shouldn't even see! Of the many sites I go to, the Sonic Stadium's the only one where their FTP is linked. Non-linked FTPs are ways of telling you, "Keep out!" and for good reason.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Nobody at Sonic Retro said "Endri, go steal that code so we can talk about it." You can't file a HUGE lawsuit towards someone for discussing information when that someone had nothing to do with getting the information, nor does simply discussing it mean that you condone how the information was collected. The most you can do is go after the source.

Actually, many were, technically. When Endri reviewed the game without party permission, people were curious, and it didn't help when Endri promised to reveal more info (until RubyEclipse threatened him with that C&D).

And actually, corporations can sue them, whether it's discussions or reports, and for a lot of money depending on the subsequent finance and profit. The first gameplay leak presented on many sites like YouTube, 1Up, TSSZ, etc. were removed by authorities. Why? Because that's information that was spoiled, illegally obtained, and should not be looked. When leaks happen, especially when they're trying to keep it closely under wraps, they the company has every right to censor all the talk and send C&D letters. If the company doesn't comply, then they get SUED. It's all a matter of copyright and it being infringed. Endri could've severely broke copyright laws, and if he did, in a really despicable way.

Retro can actually still get in trouble. The whole rumor started there, so the posts and rumor are still their responsibility to manage. All content is moderated by the admins and mods there. As you said earlier, leaks are illegal, and if the source is coming from there, then they -- admins and leaker -- hold a share of responsibility. If I were an admin, and I saw that, I would've removed the posts immediately because Sega's grasping onto Sonic 4 like a watchdog, and I don't want my butt sued because I wasn't doing my job.

This leads to this:

Could you overreact and be hysterical any more than you already are?

Worry about your own problems and we'll worry about ours.

Well, I wouldn't have reacted like this harshly and angrily if:

A. The info about PartnerNet being released and how Endri might've hacked into it. (I wasn't as upset about the leak at first, but the more in-depth his leak became and the more I read his posts, the more angrier I was and the more I realized how bad it could've been.)

B: Me having actual respect for copyright and a passion for it.

C: You and the other admins at Retro weren't being incompetent and stifling the rumor up at once. If what he said was true, Endri's words could've really damaged the finances of the game, even if the physics or overall game were improved, if Ruby didn't threaten to send a lawyer after him. Why? 'Cause the game could've been spoiled for those who've seen it. Unless something changed dramatically in the final product, there wouldn't have been any necessity to play it anymore if they saw (possibly) most of the game prematurely. No matter how true or false the rumor might be now, those who did see the report will have the words in the back of their head.

@turbojet: I'm not saying this is the end of the world, and I agree with you here on that. And I agree that he might've misreviewed the alpha/beta stage of the game horribly. But even I can't deny that that rumor and/or leak could've inflicted some horrible damage if RubyEclipse didn't send that C&D letter. Leaks are bad enough, but when Endri threatened to release the game and the codes (if he had them), then that's copyrighted info spilled out for everyone to see. That kind of stuff is piracy and is UNACCEPTABLE in the legal world; he got off very lucky with that C&D letter, and that may not be enough to save his hide.

@Cupcake: Okay, I'll pull back more. I'm going to agree with part of what you said. We don't know where all these leaks are coming from, and I also agree that this situation between Endri and Sega for now are just them. But that's ONLY for now. This could accumulate later, depending on future and official updates of Sonic 4, and I still stand by on that. But as said before, if what Endri said is true (i.e., playing the game and obtaining it), then that IS piracy and copyright infringement. Apparently, the description of the game fit somewhat in Sega's eyes, and that's why they censored all the rumors on the Sega Forums.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Dark Qiviut

[Aquaslash]

Cause the game could've been spoiled for those who've seen it. Unless something changed dramatically in the final product, there wouldn't have been any necessity to play it anymore if they saw (possibly) most of the game prematurely.

>implying this DOESN'T happen when the damn game is actually out.

No really, I want you to read what I have quoted, ESPECIALLY that first part, and then think of any game that's out.

Seriously dude, what the hell are you talking about?

[Tweaker]

But instead, the mods and admins (you, Tweaker, and anyone else who works and moderates the whole website) acted like brain-dead rejects and supported this travesty. Anyone who's smart and using intelligence would've interfered and threatened anyone to never leak anything again or risk getting a tainted criminal record.

C: You and the other admins at Retro weren't being incompetent

Little Mr. Sonic 4 conspiracy theorist is calling me incompetent? Kindly go eat a dick, bro. We kept the rumor up and will continue to until either Endri or a representative of SEGA express a desire for it to be taken down. Until then--if that even happens--there is absolutely no reason to take it down. If you don't like the game spoiled for you, I suggest you stop using the internet immediately.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Tweaker

[Remy]

It's not the community's job to run damage control for SEGA, unless they ask, I suppose.

not talking about leaks is some backwards ass shit for a message board.

[Tornado]

Yes. That's why you don't see sites link to FTPs. It's info you shouldn't even see! Of the many sites I go to, the Sonic Stadium's the only one where their FTP is linked. Non-linked FTPs are ways of telling you, "Keep out!" and for good reason.

Except the fact of the matter is that it isn't illegal to look at files hosted on the FTP for a site. You can get to the FTP for most websites accidentally, for crying out loud.

Actually, many were, technically. When Endri reviewed the game without party permission, people were curious, and it didn't help when Endri promised to reveal more info (until RubyEclipse threatened him with that C&D).

That isn't "people telling Endri to go steal something." That is "people curious to the validity of the claims that he made with no outside coercion."

And actually, corporations can sue them, whether it's discussions or reports, and for a lot of money depending on the subsequent finance and profit. The first gameplay leak presented on many sites like YouTube, 1Up, TSSZ, etc. were removed by authorities. Why? Because that's information that was spoiled, illegally obtained, and should not be looked. When leaks happen, especially when they're trying to keep it closely under wraps, they the company has every right to censor all the talk and send C&D letters. If the company doesn't comply, then they get SUED. It's all a matter of copyright and it being infringed. Endri could've severely broke copyright laws, and if he did, in a really despicable way.

Actually, corporations can't do jack shit about public discussion of secret information once said information is no longer secret.

Retro can actually still get in trouble. The whole rumor started there, so the posts and rumor are still their responsibility to manage. All content is moderated by the admins and mods there. As you said earlier, leaks are illegal, and if the source is coming from there, then they -- admins and leaker -- hold a share of responsibility. If I were an admin, and I saw that, I would've removed the posts immediately because Sega's grasping onto Sonic 4 like a watchdog, and I don't want my butt sued because I wasn't doing my job.

Note how places like Kotaku never get sued despite dealing almost exclusively in rumours and leaks.

Endri's words could've really damaged the finances of the game, even if the physics or overall game were improved, if Ruby didn't threaten to send a lawyer after him. Why? 'Cause the game could've been spoiled for those who've seen it. Unless something changed dramatically in the final product, there wouldn't have been any necessity to play it anymore if they saw (possibly) most of the game prematurely. No matter how true or false the rumor might be now, those who did see the report will have the words in the back of their head.

So what you are saying is that a short overview of a leaked build of a game on a fansite for a series where you could shit in a box and sell a million copies could have drastically damaged sales?

Edited March 1, 2010 by Tornado

[GerbilSoft]

Yes. That's why you don't see sites link to FTPs. It's info you shouldn't even see! Of the many sites I go to, the Sonic Stadium's the only one where their FTP is linked. Non-linked FTPs are ways of telling you, "Keep out!" and for good reason.

Newsflash! FTP servers support authentication in addition to anonymous public access! If Sega puts stuff on a public FTP with anonymous access, then they're clearly allowing the general public to view it. (I personally wouldn't use FTP anymore because it's insecure, but many companies are stuck with legacy systems and can't upgrade to more secure systems like sftp.)

EDIT: Also, ftp://ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/ .

Edited March 1, 2010 by GerbilSoft

[jackskellinghog]

Newsflash! FTP servers support authentication in addition to anonymous public access! If Sega puts stuff on a public FTP with anonymous access, then they're clearly allowing the general public to view it. (I personally wouldn't use FTP anymore because it's insecure, but many companies are stuck with legacy systems and can't upgrade to more secure systems like sftp.)

EDIT: Also, ftp://ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/ .

Such a bad man.

"We stopped production of Sonic 4 because of Retro. That's your answer" - SEGA Of Virgin Islands

8(

[SuperStingray]

Why can't they just keep stuff they don't want leaked in a secure, internal network until they want to announce it?

[GerbilSoft]

Why can't they just keep stuff they don't want leaked in a secure, internal network until they want to announce it?

Because that's fundamentally incompatible with Microsoft's Xbox Live setup. In order to test downloading, they have to upload the game to PartnerNET. By doing so, they grant all developers and members of the press who have debug consoles access to the game.

It's Sega's fault for dealing with Microsoft in the first place, but it's also Microsoft's fault for having such a shitty system. (Then again, could anyone really expect Microsoft to implement proper security? Look at their track record with Windows and Internet Explorer.)

Edited March 1, 2010 by GerbilSoft

[Remy]

What exactly leaked from partnernet again? Screenshots and impressions?

Big fucking deal, it's not like we don't actually get those from every other developer under the sun for every other game under the sun. If SEGA wasn't so set on cock teasing us with drawings of trees this wouldn't even be a issue hahaha.

I don't even get the partnernet leak is bad argument. It's breaching SEGA's NDA or something? unless you work at SEGA who cares? More game info the better, even if it's 'bad' surely as fans you'd want to see it.

so many of you guys post like corporate shills. "OH NO A LEAK DON'T POST ABOUT IT"

[Sean]

The only shit anybody should care about is whether the game itself is leaked, and even then, all I can imagine us doing is simply forbidding people from posting download links. I'm going to do jack shit about people posting their impressions on said leaked game, we're not the Internet censorship police.

Guess what guys, if it weren't for these leaks, you're still going to be talking about the same goddamned three-second teaser from last month. Wouldn't that be fun!?

[Remy]

Also whoever was accusing Endri of stealing is wrong... considering it's on partnernet playing it isn't stealing.

[nuckles87]

I don't even get the partnernet leak is bad argument. It's breaching SEGA's NDA or something? unless you work at SEGA who cares? More game info the better, even if it's 'bad' surely as fans you'd want to see it.

Well, heres the deal:

Yes, talking about the game was breaking the NDA with Microsoft, therefore illegal. We all know this.

But the NDA is in place for a reason: to keep people from talking about products that clearly aren't ready for prime time yet. PartnerNet, as has ALSO been said, is for beta testing, aka testing unfinished product.

The problem with letting someone like Endri playtest and preview a game, is that he's playtesting and previewing a game SEGA doesn't even think is READY to show off to the press. This, as you can see, has resulted in bad press about the game and an uproar from the fanbase. Doesn't help that a lot of people think it's "done".

Whats happened right now is actually the EXACT reason these NDAs are in place. Bad press for a big game this early on completely kills the hype machine SEGA had behind it. This could POTENTIALLY damage it's sales (though, really, I think the free demo will make or break purchases more than anything else).

Thats what's so bad about leaking impressions. These aren't even impressions for a game SEGA has deemed ready to show the press, and already a lot of this game's potential market is doom and gloom (though, to be fair, I don't completely blame them).

Also whoever was accusing Endri of stealing is wrong... considering it's on partnernet playing it isn't stealing.

No, it's not stealing. It's breaking an NDA. Which is still wrong.

I don't want to start anything here, I've got nothing against Endri for leaking early impressions. I'm just giving my opinion on the legalities of it. SEGA has every reason not to be happy, and they can't be blamed for MS's incompetence.