Megathread Sonic Origins | MT | General Discussion

[Legendary Emerald]

37 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

The public opinion has changed a lot about most of these games. Sonic Heroes is definitely one of the most popular 3D Sonic games now, Sonic Unleashed, too. I don't think they are controversial anymore. The same can be said about Sonic and the Black Knight. Secret Rings, on the other hand, became less popular because the controls haven't aged well. I think if they are able to re-release Secret Rings without the motion controls, it would be a really great game. But, they would need to tweak the level design a little bit to fit this new control scheme.

When it comes to Shadow TH and 2006, they are still controversial, unfortunately. But I think Shadow the Hedgehog could be a decent enough experience with a few tweaks and QoL improvements. Such as the physics and putting radar and a map in some stages. It could be a good idea to re-release in a collection alongside Sonic Movie 3.

Sonic 2006 would require way more work, though, because it's not just unpolished, it's unfinished.

Do anyone besides die-hard Sonic fans actually consider Black Knight to be decent? I definitely have seen its rise in esteem in the fandom in the past three or so years, but I can’t imagine a general audience has warmed up to it. The moment-to-moment gameplay is some of the worst the Sonic franchise has ever seen, and all the fan-service (multiple playable characters, fan-favorite composers, a surprisingly decent story and good characterization for Sonic) won’t mean much for someone on the outside of the fandom.

[Shiny Gems]

Just had a thought: If they are doing Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles as one game, and it is a remaster/re-release, I wonder if they will include Big Arms as a boss fight for Sonic? That would be unlike in Sonic 3 and Knuckles where Sonic just had the boss before the Big Arms boss in Launch Base Zone, while Knuckles had the Big Arms boss in his story. Sonic only fought Big Arms in Sonic 3 alone. I wonder if they will include Sonic's boss fight for that boss in the Sonic Origins version of Sonic 3 and Knuckles or just leave it out?

[Salamander]

2 hours ago, CrystalMaelStorm said:

Just had a thought: If they are doing Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles as one game, and it is a remaster/re-release, I wonder if they will include Big Arms as a boss fight for Sonic? That would be unlike in Sonic 3 and Knuckles where Sonic just had the boss before the Big Arms boss in Launch Base Zone, while Knuckles had the Big Arms boss in his story. Sonic only fought Big Arms in Sonic 3 alone. I wonder if they will include Sonic's boss fight for that boss in the Sonic Origins version of Sonic 3 and Knuckles or just leave it out?

While none of us can know for sure, I don't think they would ever in a million years allow one of the more iconic boss fights (or any boss fight) to be effectively cut from the game just to maintain perfect consistency with the original S3&K.  Sonic will fight Big Arms.

[Cosmos Rogue]

If Big Arms doesn't appear in S3&K itself it could potentially still appear in boss rush mode.

[light-gaia]

5 hours ago, Legendary Emerald said:

Do anyone besides die-hard Sonic fans actually consider Black Knight to be decent? I definitely have seen its rise in esteem in the fandom in the past three or so years, but I can’t imagine a general audience has warmed up to it. The moment-to-moment gameplay is some of the worst the Sonic franchise has ever seen, and all the fan-service (multiple playable characters, fan-favorite composers, a surprisingly decent story and good characterization for Sonic) won’t mean much for someone on the outside of the fandom.

It isn't nearly as popular and mainstream as games like Sonic Heroes, but it's not a hated game either.

[BubbleButt TV]

5 hours ago, Legendary Emerald said:

Do anyone besides die-hard Sonic fans actually consider Black Knight to be decent? I definitely have seen its rise in esteem in the fandom in the past three or so years, but I can’t imagine a general audience has warmed up to it. The moment-to-moment gameplay is some of the worst the Sonic franchise has ever seen, and all the fan-service (multiple playable characters, fan-favorite composers, a surprisingly decent story and good characterization for Sonic) won’t mean much for someone on the outside of the fandom.

I swear whenever I see people praise Black Knight these days it's only for the story and soundtrack, never for the actual game itself.

I don't get why people think Black Knight plays better than Secret Rings honestly, they both suck. Secret Rings controls are awful and Black Knight is just boring. If anything Black Knight is worse in that aspect, at least Secret Rings was mildly fun in a chaotic and frustrating way.

[TheOcelot]

4 hours ago, CrystalMaelStorm said:

Just had a thought: If they are doing Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles as one game, and it is a remaster/re-release, I wonder if they will include Big Arms as a boss fight for Sonic? That would be unlike in Sonic 3 and Knuckles where Sonic just had the boss before the Big Arms boss in Launch Base Zone, while Knuckles had the Big Arms boss in his story. Sonic only fought Big Arms in Sonic 3 alone. I wonder if they will include Sonic's boss fight for that boss in the Sonic Origins version of Sonic 3 and Knuckles or just leave it out?

I think Big Arm will be included in Origins because it's a well-liked boss fight, popular enough to be included in Generations (3DS). Is also in the Sonic 3 Complete (3K) hack & Sonic 3 AIR, so I'd imagine SEGA are aware fans want this boss included and I think Stealth will push for it to be added.

I enjoy this boss a lot; the epic music, the sky turning dark, Eggman's aggressive movement when he attacks (trying not to get caught by the Arm) makes the fight feel tense. So I'll be gutted if it's not included.

Something else to consider is that when Big Arm was removed from 3K in the original release, the Orbinaut badnik was also removed from Launch Base zone act 1 & act 2 (no doubt to make this zone feel a bit easier). The Orbinaut is tricky because you can only defeat it by using the insta-shield (or being invincible or super). So will be interesting to see if Orbinaut is also included in Origins.

[Mangoaxe5]

You can play Sonic 3 & Sonic & Knuckles separately right?

 

I like the Sonic 3 1-up sound, and miniboss music better than the Sonic & Knuckles ones.

[Zaysho]

7 hours ago, TheOcelot said:

Something else to consider is that when Big Arm was removed from 3K in the original release, the Orbinaut badnik was also removed from Launch Base zone act 1 & act 2 (no doubt to make this zone feel a bit easier). The Orbinaut is tricky because you can only defeat it by using the insta-shield (or being invincible or super). So will be interesting to see if Orbinaut is also included in Origins.

I checked an LP (that is probably based on either the Genesis version or earlier emulated collections) because I was mildly confused by this but Orbinauts were always in 3K. You run into one right at the very start of Launch Base and they're kind of here and there. I'm not totally sure if you mean that 3K has fewer of them than base 3? I do know the final boss had its second phase removed (and oddly given to Knuckles's side) but I wasn't aware there were major changes between the combined version and the base versions. It would be pretty neat to have the second phase restored for Sonic though, LBZ always felt kind of "off" without it in the combined version.

[Sega DogTagz]

9 hours ago, BubbleButt TV said:

I swear whenever I see people praise Black Knight these days it's only for the story and soundtrack, never for the actual game itself.

^This.

On any other merit, BK falls flat on its face. Public opinion has really only shifted on the characterization/story front, as more and more people are able to hold it up as a rare good example. 

 

 

Back to Origins, the edition of Sonic 1 in this collection is modded to include the spindash right? That game is terribly dated without it.

[Blue Blood]

2 hours ago, Zaysho said:

I checked an LP (that is probably based on either the Genesis version or earlier emulated collections) because I was mildly confused by this but Orbinauts were always in 3K. You run into one right at the very start of Launch Base and they're kind of here and there. I'm not totally sure if you mean that 3K has fewer of them than base 3? I do know the final boss had its second phase removed (and oddly given to Knuckles's side) but I wasn't aware there were major changes between the combined version and the base versions. It would be pretty neat to have the second phase restored for Sonic though, LBZ always felt kind of "off" without it in the combined version.

Several Orbinauts were removed from 3K in Launch Base, but definitely not all of them. There were lots of little changes like this in 3K, all to rebalanced difficulty. For example, during the crushing wall chase at the start of HZ2 in 3K, there is a 1up monitor that's so easy to get that it's basically free. But in S3, it was actually a spring that pushed you backwards along the path and towards the wall. I highly recommend checking out the maps on Zone 0 for a fully detailed breakdown. Here's the HZ2 map specifically.

I kind of expect Origins to stick more closely to the 3K versions, as they're what people know the most. I'm indifferent to the whole LBZ boss situation because I don't want the level to drag when it's only the mid-game and Knuckles gets to fight Big Arm anyway, which fits his general "hard mode" style.

[JezMM]

4 hours ago, Vampfox said:

You can play Sonic 3 & Sonic & Knuckles separately right?

 

I like the Sonic 3 1-up sound, and miniboss music better than the Sonic & Knuckles ones.

There has been absoloutely nothing to suggest they'll be playable seperately by anything we've been shown so far, they're very much treating it as the perfect, combined version of the game.

Considering the original version of Sonic 3 & Knuckles prioritises S&K music over S3, I'm assuming this will do the same, but it would be nice if they can include the option to choose your preferences for at least riffs on the main theme (for 1up and invincibility, I think having Sonic & Tails use the Sonic 3 version and Knuckles use the S&K version would be a nice compromise.

The miniboss theme is one of the awkward tracks that is assumed to be tied up in copyright issues.  Unless they've sorted those out, it won't be in the game at all.

[Zaysho]

39 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Several Orbinauts were removed from 3K in Launch Base, but definitely not all of them. There were lots of little changes like this in 3K, all to rebalanced difficulty. For example, during the cursing wall chase at the start of HZ2 in 3K, there is a 1up monitor that's so easy to get that it's basically free. But in S3, it was actually a spring that pushed you backwards along the path and towards the wall. I highly recommend checking out the maps on Zone 0 for a fully detailed breakdown. Here's the HZ2 map specifically.

I kind of expect Origins to stick more closely to the 3K versions, as they're what people know the most. I'm indifferent to the whole LBZ boss situation because I don't want the level to drag when it's only the mid-game and Knuckles gets to fight Big Arm anyway, which fits his general "hard mode" style.

Oh, interesting. That's my bad.

Yeah a lot of the changes I don't think I ever really noticed or thought to look out for.

[JezMM]

I'd definitely be bummed out if Big Arms was missing from Sonic & Tails' campaign in S3&K.  The concept of a "mid-game climax" is something I really like.  It was a really cool choice to include one in Sonic Mania via the Metal Sonic fight.  The absence of Big Arms in S3&K traditionally is why I always played the first half of Sonic 3 standalone whenever I did revisit it (back when Sonic Mega Collection was my only means of playing, anyway.  Later on I'd always use Sonic 3 Complete).

The first attempt to launch the Death Egg is this significant story beat, and without that struggle at the end of the zone, it kinda makes Launch Base feel like just any other zone.  Stopping the Death Egg's launch feels too trivial.  The idea of Knuckles' campaign having unique content is an understandable argument, but only in the world where it doesn't feel like something has been actively stripped out of Sonic's campaign for Sonic 3 veterans.

It is a little bit of a difficulty spike I guess, but nothing that Anniversary Mode couldn't solve by adding an invisible checkpoint, a few rings, and making it so the rings always bounce on the floor of the arena.

[TheOcelot]

4 hours ago, Zaysho said:

Oh, interesting. That's my bad.

Yeah a lot of the changes I don't think I ever really noticed or thought to look out for.

Sorry, my bad as well. I should have been more specific. What I meant to say is some of the Launch Base Orbinaut badniks were removed in 3K but not all of them. More specifically the ones which appear above or below the rotating cylinders in S3 alone were removed in 3K. Some other badniks were removed as well and some item boxes were changed or removed etc. 

As Blue Blood said there are changes to other zones in 3K. This video shows differences between S3 and 3K. Note that it doesn't show all the areas where Orbinaut badniks where removed in Launch Base.

[Legendary Emerald]

23 hours ago, BubbleButt TV said:

I swear whenever I see people praise Black Knight these days it's only for the story and soundtrack, never for the actual game itself.

I don't get why people think Black Knight plays better than Secret Rings honestly, they both suck. Secret Rings controls are awful and Black Knight is just boring. If anything Black Knight is worse in that aspect, at least Secret Rings was mildly fun in a chaotic and frustrating way.

If you play Secret Rings enough, you can level-up Sonic to the point where he is decently responsive even in spite of the motion controls. Terrible way to design a progression system, don’t get me wrong, but I’d take that over Black Knight’s Sonic controlling like a boulder no matter how long you play it.

[Kuzu]

On 4/30/2022 at 3:57 AM, JezMM said:

I'd definitely be bummed out if Big Arms was missing from Sonic & Tails' campaign in S3&K.  The concept of a "mid-game climax" is something I really like.  It was a really cool choice to include one in Sonic Mania via the Metal Sonic fight.  The absence of Big Arms in S3&K traditionally is why I always played the first half of Sonic 3 standalone whenever I did revisit it (back when Sonic Mega Collection was my only means of playing, anyway.  Later on I'd always use Sonic 3 Complete).

The first attempt to launch the Death Egg is this significant story beat, and without that struggle at the end of the zone, it kinda makes Launch Base feel like just any other zone.  Stopping the Death Egg's launch feels too trivial.  The idea of Knuckles' campaign having unique content is an understandable argument, but only in the world where it doesn't feel like something has been actively stripped out of Sonic's campaign for Sonic 3 veterans.

It is a little bit of a difficulty spike I guess, but nothing that Anniversary Mode couldn't solve by adding an invisible checkpoint, a few rings, and making it so the rings always bounce on the floor of the arena.

I feel like it makes sense for Sonic 3 Launch Base to be harder since its the final zone technically just for that part of the game.

Whereas with Sonic 3 & Knuckles, its the mid part of the game. Like a difficulty spike that big and then going to Mushroom Hill is pretty huge 

[King Conne]

For me, "Big Arms" is a boss in Knuckles' story which takes place after Sonic & Tails' story!!...
Il really liked the differences between Sonic and Tails' adventure and Knuckles' adventure set after to create a big big story!!...

[McGroose]

14 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I feel like it makes sense for Sonic 3 Launch Base to be harder since its the final zone technically just for that part of the game.

Whereas with Sonic 3 & Knuckles, its the mid part of the game. Like a difficulty spike that big and then going to Mushroom Hill is pretty huge 

Might just be me, but I never thought Launch Base zone was a difficult level. I thought it was on part with Mushroom Hill. S&K is harder in general than Sonic 3 IMO. Sonic 3 might be the easiest of the classic bunch overall. Makes sense since it's technically only the first half of a game. The only trouble that Launch Base gave me was with those spiked badniks. Knuckles also had a slightly confusing layout for act 2 of that level.

Spoiler

It also helped that you could get infinite lives abusing the alarm glitch at the beginning of act 1

 

[StaticMania]

2 hours ago, McGroose said:

Might just be me, but I never thought Launch Base zone was a difficult level. I thought it was on par with Mushroom Hill.

Vanilla Launch Base is not level with Mushroom Hill.

Not getting a game over doesn't make a level...not hard, that's incidental to anything else.

[JezMM]

I wouldn't mind if there was some rebalancing to be honest - Mushroom Hill always felt like they must have toned it down a bit just in case - like any release - it's someone's first Sonic experience.  As a result, even in the original version of S3&K, without Big Arms, it feels like a bit of a calm down.

Having said that... I'm fine with it.  As said, I like Launch Base, Big Arms in-tact, as a mid-game climax.  Game difficulty by no means has to be a linear diagonal line, constantly increasing from the start of the game to the end.  In a game as long as S3&K, where Flying Battery to Death Egg do more than enough to ramp up the challenge suitably, keeping Mushroom Hill as a fairly chill affair also helps to give the player a breather and matches the stakes of the story at that point in time.  A newcomer who struggled to finish Launch Base will probably feel pretty good to have the difficulty dialed back a bit so they can feel more confident that they're making progress as well.

[BadBehavior]

On 4/29/2022 at 3:44 PM, LegoFedora said:

Sega isn't too afraid to rerelease Shadow/Heroes, they were rereleased on the psn in Europe/Japan back on the ps3. I think the hardest part of rereleasing Shadow/Heroes for them is the music rights, those games actually have quite a bit of licensed music from multiple bands if I recall correctly (I know Julien-K and Powerman 5000 were involved for Shadow, can't recall any others off the top of my head). They might have to pay royalties/renew contracts for it.

But if they do rerelease Shadow, it'd be nice to see them find a way to work in some of the removed tracks, I'd love to see songs like "Broken" or "Who I Am" get back in, even if only as alternate credits songs.

Music isn't stopping them from rereleasing S3K. Whatever method they go with in that regard (whether they renegotiate or just replace the music outright) could possibly be applied to Heroes.

[Tenko]

I'm probably looking far to much into little things, but it's weird that in a past interview (that could have been mistranslated) Iizuka said it was a "big collection", and then on the recent Sonic Official broadcast both Katie and Justin at about 10:35 mention "it's a big collection" "it is, it's very impressive".

I would hardly call 4-5 titles (if you count Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles separately) a "big collection". Especially considering the recent collections by other publishers. Perhaps they just mean because of the added content, the animations and such, but it's still got me hoping there's more to it, even if it's planned DLC or something.

[TheOcelot]

11 hours ago, Tenko said:

I'm probably looking far to much into little things, but it's weird that in a past interview (that could have been mistranslated) Iizuka said it was a "big collection", and then on the recent Sonic Official broadcast both Katie and Justin at about 10:35 mention "it's a big collection" "it is, it's very impressive".

I would hardly call 4-5 titles (if you count Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles separately) a "big collection". Especially considering the recent collections by other publishers. Perhaps they just mean because of the added content, the animations and such, but it's still got me hoping there's more to it, even if it's planned DLC or something.

When they say "big" they're just trying to talk it up-make it sound exciting. When you have four games (it's not five as 3&K is being treated as one whole game) and different modes (anniversary, classic, story, mirror, boss rush, new animations, missions and not to mention all the additional content each remaster contains such as time attack mode), I think calling it a big collection is fair, although I appreciate this can lead to the assumption more games could be included. 

There's no evidence to suggest any other titles will be added and this is suppose to be a remastered collection with no emulation, so I can't see SEGA coughing up the required money for full remasters of Spinball & 3D Blast like with the other classics.

Maybe Origins will get a "Plus" release next year with more games. Unlikely perhaps but you never know.

[Tenko]

1 hour ago, TheOcelot said:

When they say "big" they are just trying to talk it up-make it sound exciting. When you have four games (it's not five as 3&K is being treated as one whole game) and different modes (anniversary, classic, story, mirror, boss rush, new animations, missions and not to mention all the additional content each remaster contains such as time attack mode), I think calling it a big collection is fair, although I appreciate this can lead to the assumption more games could be included. 

There's no evidence to suggest any other titles will be added and this is suppose to be a remastered collection with no emulation, so I can't see SEGA coughing up the required money for full remasters of Spinball & 3D Blast like with the other classics.

Maybe Origins will get a "Plus" release next year with more games. Unlikely perhaps but you never know.

That's fair, and I'm a simple man, Sonic Jam is still my favorite Sonic collection, so as long as it's done well and has that same kind of care and love put into it then I'm sold regardless. Heck the "Story Mode" with the animated scenes and linking the games all together was enough for me.