Sonic the Hedgehog 4

[Totally]

This is stupid !Everyone wanted 2D Sonic games and complaint about the 3D Sonic!Now you have 2D,but suddenly 3D Sonic games are better for you and the 2D is bad! Will you people ever stop complain about everyithing and not for once thank to SEGA that they have listened to their ''fans''?

[Candescence]

I don't think that's really quite the case, here. Besides the strangely irrational worry of Sega no longer making 3D games... I really think the geniune concern is Sega possibly completely screwing this up. I honestly doubt they actually have a clue as to why the classic games are so good.

Edited September 12, 2009 by The Sniper

[SuperLink]

It's not true that people are being hypocritical about this (I think). People who wanted it to go back to 2D are worried it'll suck (which is a fair concern, it probably will) and people like myself never had any want for a new console 2D Sonic game; I just wanted them to start making good 3D games and keep the still-great 2D games on handheld.

[Daisoku]

Yeah, I don't get the 2D hating either... D¦

Anyway, what kind of music do you expect to see? 16-bit, like the retros, or something like from the newer games?

Discuss.

[serpx]

Why is barely anyone actually talking about this game? We have 19 pages and most of it has little to nothing to do about this game. I know we don't have info, but then don't post so much.

BTW My complaint is coming because, every day when I get on the internet and check here there are like 2-3 new pages and I have it set up for like 50 messages per page. It's annoying reading them all, wespacially when they have nothing to do with this game.

And yes I know that my post has also nothing to do with the game..

We are talking about this game. People are just giving examples of their ideas and doing some heavy elaborations, and then people respond and even argue over those said elaborations and examples, giving you the idea that we're not talking about the game, when, overall, the game is the overall subject.

[Indigo Rush]

I'm waiting for this game to be outright amazing, and see fans still whine and moan about it, while I'm having fun with my 2D Sonic. I mean it. I'll be laughing and having fun with this game (if I can actually get my hands on a 360) while you'll all be nitpicking about Sonic's shade of blue or if Green Hill remake # 3412 is in it or not.

Seriously, if it's fun, then awesome, but if not, then there's always Mega Collection and Adventure. But we're only going off of a few tag lines and classic sound effects! (and from the tag lines, it sounds like SEGA is trying.)

what kind of music do you expect to see? 16-bit, like the retros, or something like from the newer games?

I don't want to hear any chiptunes in this, personally, but if they're in there, then I won't mind (I mean, provided the game is actually 16-32 bit) if not, then I'll be expecting more of a Sonic CD JP like soundtrack, or even a Sonic Adventure approach. No doubt Jun Senoue will get his shining moment in this game, and I would like a Crish 40 cover of You Can Do Anything. [/dream]

If not, then Sonic 1 theme remake plz.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Particle Man

[SuperLink]

I'll like it whether it's good or bad; but that's not the point. The point is whether it IS good or bad. The better it is the less complaints. Even the Advance and Rush series have a lot of haters, but far less than the 3D series. It's a good start.

As for music, I'm expecting the same kinda stuff we've had in the 3D games and Rush. Would be nice to have Classic/Advance style more classic sounding music, but if the game is HD I don't really see that happening, simply because they have the technology for performed tracks rather than MIDIs.

I'd love more orchestrated stuff.

[Marcello]

Yeah, I don't get the 2D hating either... D¦

Anyway, what kind of music do you expect to see? 16-bit, like the retros, or something like from the newer games?

Discuss.

I'm hoping for Midi's and them sounding like the Genesis games music. I like the music in the new games, too though. SH had some great music( I liked Frog Forest (Act 1, I think) the most)

[Gatestormer]

As for music...I'm hoping we get a bunch of new tracks like we always get in the games, but if we have levels that are reminiscent of older levels (Casino levels, Green Hills etc) then I'd adore to have some remixes of the Megadrive music.

Also, I want to see Metal Sonic YESPLZ

[JaidynReiman]

I don't see what's wrong with having a 2D Sonic game on a console again. Frankly, I'd like to see them mix it up more; 3D handheld Sonic games and 2D console Sonic games. 3D handheld Sonic games wouldn't be quite so simple to do, but I'm sure something could be worked out like that. And I don't mean a sidescrolling Sonic game with 3D graphics, like in the Rush or Rivals games.

I think having a sidescrolling Sonic game with high-quality 3D graphics would be pretty cool. Of course, I don't want them to give up on 3D, either, as I've liked a lot of the 3D games, too. They just need to take some things from Unleashed; a quality game with some concept flaws. Most 3D Sonic games in the past have mostly had quality flaws.

MIDI's? What the hell? I don't want crappy midi's in a modern-day console Sonic game, 2D or not. That's just lame. They can still make the music reminiscent of the classics without resorting to using midi's. Sheesh.

[dreadnux'sultimatefan]

I think that A 2D Sonic game would be pretty good for Sega, Putting Sonic back to his roots is a worthy idea. I am only eleven, so I know what young people look for in a game espicially Sonic games. I do like all the classics, but I am not sure about this. I hope it will be good. Dreadknux is awesome!!

[Random Rhyme]

I don't see what's wrong with having a 2D Sonic game on a console again. Frankly, I'd like to see them mix it up more; 3D handheld Sonic games and 2D console Sonic games. 3D handheld Sonic games wouldn't be quite so simple to do, but I'm sure something could be worked out like that. And I don't mean a sidescrolling Sonic game with 3D graphics, like in the Rush or Rivals games.

I think having a sidescrolling Sonic game with high-quality 3D graphics would be pretty cool. Of course, I don't want them to give up on 3D, either, as I've liked a lot of the 3D games, too. They just need to take some things from Unleashed; a quality game with some concept flaws. Most 3D Sonic games in the past have mostly had quality flaws.

I am interested in this too. Like it was said before that people liked the Sonic daytime stages, they need to build up on it and make it better.

[Legendary Emerald]

I find nothing wrong with being able to "memorize" the levels, as long as I'm not forced to follow that path every time I pick up the game to replay it; I like to feel a certain degree of control over where I'm going. Which I suppose is why I hate Sonic Unleashed with such a burning passion; you have three choices in that game.

1. Boost through the whole level and complete every QTE, and use every shortcut you find

2. Don't boost and take the level slowly, which doesn't do anything but make the level longer.

3. Intentionally take the lower "paths", though they are invariably slower routes than the upper path.

In Sonic Adventure 1, 2, and 2006, there was linear level design, but still a degree of exploration and a choice of where you could go and what path you could take (Sonic Adventure and 2006 did this perfectly). Sonic Unleashed, meanwhile, is MotorStorm with a hedgehog. There may be a handful of alt. paths, but that just means they get you were you are going slower, not in a way that makes you appreciate the level design or give you a look at an area you wouldn't have otherwise seen.

Off topic post if off topic. How 'bout that Needle Mouse, eh?

[Leonard]

If anything, I think the older 2D platformers are notorious for this, requiring more from the player then anything on the market today. Just consider Sonic 1 and 2 for the Sega Master System, games which are in my opinion two of the hardest Sonic games ever made. These titles really push you as a player, memorising every boss sequence and the location of each Chaos Emerald is the only way to win.

The days have changed. Such flaws just stand out a lot more today because games have evolved over time.

It's not true that people are being hypocritical about this (I think). People who wanted it to go back to 2D are worried it'll suck (which is a fair concern, it probably will) and people like myself never had any want for a new console 2D Sonic game; I just wanted them to start making good 3D games and keep the still-great 2D games on handheld.

Exactly my thoughts. :/

To be honest, I'm kinda wondering already what would happen to the franchise if Project Needlemouse was a success. How would they continue?

But I guess it's too early to discuss that.

[SuperLink]

It's never too early!

Before we discuss that though, it needs to be re-asserted that Sonic Team are idiots who can't make consistently good games if the universe depended on it, and are incredibly erratic with what they want to do and stick with.

With that in mind, I think it's easy to deduct that even if Needlemouse is a success, we'll still be getting an almost random mix of dartboard, badly made crap and genuinely good ideas.

[Leonard]

It's never too early!

Before we discuss that though, it needs to be re-asserted that Sonic Team are idiots who can't make consistently good games if the universe depended on it, and are incredibly erratic with what they want to do and stick with.

With that in mind, I think it's easy to deduct that even if Needlemouse is a success, we'll still be getting an almost random mix of dartboard, badly made crap and genuinely good ideas.

Quite an overly pessimistic view, but to be honest, I agree somewhat. :/

Sonic Team has quite some track record.

Also, LOL:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8uc64_sonic-the-hedgehog-4-debut-trailer_videogames

Why oh why, couldn't Sega continue this instead of Neddlemouse? CURSE YOU.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Leonard

[Legendary Emerald]

"If anything, I think the older 2D platformers are notorious for this, requiring more from the player then anything on the market today. Just consider Sonic 1 and 2 for the Sega Master System, games which are in my opinion two of the hardest Sonic games ever made. These titles really push you as a player, memorising every boss sequence and the location of each Chaos Emerald is the only way to win." ~ Kintor

The days have changed. Such flaws just stand out a lot more today because games have evolved over time.

Excuse me? Are you saying that difficulty is a FLAW? That is downright ludicrous. How do you think games like Devil May Cry and Megaman Zero attract their fanbase? By being balls-out hard as fuck. Difficulty is rarely a detrimental factor in gaming; only when it serves to delay progression for exorbitant amounts of time should one complain.

Not to mention that neither Sonic 1 or 2 (for genesis) requires the degree of memorization hinted at. In both games, due to their large sprawling levels, you can take a different path through the game each time and still get to the ending all the same. Sure, you can make up a path for yourself to follow, or remember to stay upwards on a level such as "Starlight Zone", but the games focus much more on platforming and reflexes than memorization.

Oh, and now that I notice Kintor was talking about the Master System titles, I'm more inclined to agree with him; those were much more linear and required memorization. However, they also weren't exactly great Sonic games in my opinion, and hardly account for an accurate representation of Sonic 2D platformers. They aren't worse than the genesis games just because they are harder, but because their control is much worse, level design is on the whole very simple, and cheap deaths are extremely common (which does not go hand in hand with actual difficulty, I might add).

Edit: Oh, and Leonard, that video was hilarious! Especially Jet the "Bird".

Edited September 12, 2009 by Legendary Emerald

[Leonard]

Excuse me? Are you saying that difficulty is a FLAW? That is downright ludicrous.

Edit: Oh, and Leonard, that video was hilarious! Especially Jet the "Bird".

Wait a second, that was directed to pointless "trial & error".

Although that probably may apply to Mega Man and DMC somewhat too, these games intentionally utilize it for the "hardcore-ness".

[Kintor]

Oh, and now that I notice Kintor was talking about the Master System titles, I'm more inclined to agree with him; those were much more linear and required memorization. However, they also weren't exactly great Sonic games in my opinion, and hardly account for an accurate representation of Sonic 2D platformers. They aren't worse than the genesis games just because they are harder, but because their control is much worse, level design is on the whole very simple, and cheap deaths are extremely common (which does not go hand in hand with actual difficulty, I might add).

Well... thanks for agreeing with me. However, I you've misread what I was saying in that post. Perhaps it's best if I just explain myself a little more.

First things first, the levels in Sonic 1 MS, while different, are no means inferior to anything you would find on the Megadrive. This game was not linear, several of the levels have branching paths. The most prominent of these would be Scrap Brain Zone act 2, that level is a maze; requiring the player to take a very circuitous route to ‘unlock’ the door and then find the teleporter, which leads to the final part of this level.

The controls in this game are very smooth and intuitive; platforming is very easy to control. In places like the Jungle Zone this is needed, some of the trickiest platforming ever seen in a Sonic game exist here; fortunately you don't have to fight the controls at all. Oh and bottomless pits aren’t really a concern either, they aren't very frequent and are easily negotiable, which is par for the course in any platformers.

I mention all this because I wanted to show how memorisation is not the result of bad design. In many ways, Sonic 1 is very typical of platformers of that era which all require significant memorisation. The designers of these games designed them to be this way, games designed with secret areas and seemingly invincible bosses; winging it on the day just wasn’t good enough. But hey, it was fun!

Anyway, this is all beside the point. I just wanted to talk about the use of memorisation in platformers. Basically, I just wanted to show that memorisation has always been a part of Sonic games. More to the point, I think when you look back at the earliest Sonic games, I think it is apparent that memorisation is less important now, more so then it has ever been. Not that I have a problem with this sort of mechanic in the first place, in one way or another we all try to memorise the games we play, it' just part of human nature.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Kintor

[Agent York]

About the Sonic Team having some track record...

Pre-2005 they actually had an amazing track record with games like Phantasy Star Online, Sonic, Space Channel 5, NiGHTS Into Dreams, Billy Hatcher, Samba Amigo, Chu Chu Rocket, Burning Rangers, and the likes.

IN FACT, do some research. There are TWO Sonic Team groups, the problem is LATELY Sega Studio USA (Sonic Team USA) have been in charge, and they have given us the likes of Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, NiGHTS Journey of Dreams, and the likes.

However in 2008, according to Jun (the music composer) Sonic Team USA was closed in 2008. Sonic Team of Japan made Sonic Unleashed, however they don't have a perfect track record either because they did make the Sonic Riders series by combining with AMV for the project and yes, I do believe they made the horrid mess of Sonic 06, if I remember correctly.

BUT never say Sonic Team is horrible. In fact, before 2005, Sonic Team could be considered a "Dream Team" of developers that made such amazing titles that were all original and fun game after game. Recently their track-record has been a bit better, but not perfect. It's been 5 years (2005-2009) but they can redeem themselves.

[Leonard]

About the Sonic Team having some track record...

Pre-2005 they actually had an amazing track record with games like Phantasy Star Online, Sonic, Space Channel 5, NiGHTS Into Dreams, Billy Hatcher, Samba Amigo, Chu Chu Rocket, Burning Rangers, and the likes.

IN FACT, do some research. There are TWO Sonic Team groups, the problem is LATELY Sega Studio USA (Sonic Team USA) have been in charge, and they have given us the likes of Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, NiGHTS Journey of Dreams, and the likes.

However in 2008, according to Jun (the music composer) Sonic Team USA was closed in 2008. Sonic Team of Japan made Sonic Unleashed, however they don't have a perfect track record either because they did make the Sonic Riders series by combining with AMV for the project and yes, I do believe they made the horrid mess of Sonic 06, if I remember correctly.

BUT never say Sonic Team is horrible. In fact, before 2005, Sonic Team could be considered a "Dream Team" of developers that made such amazing titles that were all original and fun game after game. Recently their track-record has been a bit better, but not perfect. It's been 5 years (2005-2009) but they can redeem themselves.

I apologize then, I guess I used the name a little bit to loosely. :/

[Dr. SEGA Monkey]

Hmmm? Sonic Team didn't make Space Channel 5. United Game Artists did. It's just that SEGA restructured their development teams in 2004, so United Game Artists merged with Sonic Team, and all they've been doing since then is Sonic Riders 1 and 2.

[Vic Boss]

Well that's interesting. SEGA have just now removed Project Needlemouse from the FTP. Hopefully it's because they're going to announce it soon under it's real name.

[Diogenes]

It's been going back and forth for a few days now (I think there was some Sonic&Knuckles stuff up there too that's also been vanishing and reappearing). I don't think it's anything worth paying attention to.

[Gatestormer]

Moar chimneys info! MOOOAAAAR

This is torture, what dates exactly is TGS taking place?