Sonic the Hedgehog 4

[Vic Boss]

Pretty sure it's 24th to the 27th this month. Yeah TGS... I can't wait.

[Badnik Zero]

When it comes to memorization of levels, I've only really done that in a few Sonic games. Some of the harder missions in Secret Rings definitely required memorization. Sonic 2 on the MS-GG was memorized to an extent, like the Scrambled Egg zoom tubes and emerald locations. Maybe Night Carnival in Sonic Rush. Actually a lot of SA2's A-ranks needed you to hit tricks very precisely, which felt like a kind of sudden-death memorization game.

I don't think memorization is a problem if it's just remembering to jump over a tricky area. It's not chronic of the series, but the more linear games definitely have problems with it. Kill linearity to kill artificial difficulty, IMO. Kintor mentioned continues. Would anyone be mad if they went really retro and decided to go with lives instead of saves?

Edited September 12, 2009 by Ezra the Badnik

[turbojet]

Ok message me when there is footage or pics so I don't have to come in here and read this ongoing arguement.

[Phos]

I'm fairly sure the argument that Phos was making is that players are outright punished for not having prior knowledge of a level. Of course, as you stated Kintor, having prior knowledge of a level should be rewarded (usually in the form of secrets, awards and shortcuts to add depth and replay value), but killing the player for not playing a level before is just objectively bad design.

That's part of it. But more precisely, I'm talking about how the challenging parts of the classic trilogy in particular give you a lot of wiggle room when it comes to exactly how you avoid getting hit or dieing.

[Solid SOAP]

That's part of it. But more precisely, I'm talking about how the challenging parts of the classic trilogy in particular give you a lot of wiggle room when it comes to exactly how you avoid getting hit or dieing.

I felt that while Unleashed didn't completely fix this problem, it made it less apparent than in previous games. I recall moments where if I missed a jump, failed a QTE, didn't light dash, etc, I would be taken through a different route or have time to wall jump back to safety instead of simply just dying like in previous games. I'm hoping Needlemouse fixes the problem even more-so, leaving bottomless pits to the later levels and/or making it so mistimed jumps will simply slow you down instead of killing you alltogether.

[Phos]

The point wasn't so much old vs. new, so much as there wasn't really a point in changing it so much for 3D.

[Vasco]

Ok message me when there is footage or pics so I don't have to come in here and read this ongoing arguement.

I believe the topic description is updated whenever there's some news on the game.

[Dejablue]

the ealier games didn't really have bottomless pits did they? I can hardly remember but I know for the most part if you fell you just fell to a lower part of the level.

[Vasco]

the ealier games didn't really have bottomless pits did they? I can hardly remember but I know for the most part if you fell you just fell to a lower part of the level.

Some had quite a few, but I don't understand what the big issue is either. I think it makes the game far more interesting.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Vasco

[Agent York]

the ealier games didn't really have bottomless pits did they? I can hardly remember but I know for the most part if you fell you just fell to a lower part of the level.

Sonic 1: Green Hill Zone, Spring Yard, Star Light, Scrap Brain

Sonic 2: Chemical Plant, Hill Top, Wing Fortress

Sonic 3: Ice Cap, Launch Base

Sonic & Knuckles: Flying Battery, Lava Reef, Sky Sanctuary, Death Egg

Sonic CD: Metallic Madness

Edited September 12, 2009 by Rice Golem

[Dejablue]

Sonic 1: Green Hill Zone, Spring Yard, Star Light, Scrap Brain

Sonic 2: Chemical Plant, Hill Top, Wing Fortress

Sonic 3: Ice Cap, Launch Base

Sonic & Knuckles: Flying Battery, Lava Reef, Sky Sanctuary, Death Egg

Sonic CD: Metallic Madness

Hah. See I never remember falling into them.

[Phos]

Sonic 1: Green Hill Zone, Spring Yard, Star Light, Scrap Brain

Sonic 2: Chemical Plant, Hill Top, Wing Fortress

Sonic 3: Ice Cap, Launch Base

Sonic & Knuckles: Flying Battery, Lava Reef, Sky Sanctuary, Death Egg

Sonic CD: Metallic Madness

Spring Yard comes from the Boss, and Star Light's requires you to fall past several layers

Hill Top - Are you sure you're not thinking of Lava?

As far as I know, the ones in Ice Cap are Knuckles only. Flying Battery Zone has two in spite of being several miles above ground. Re: Death Egg, Are you sure you're not thinking of electric floors?

Sonic CD has exactly one, and I think that one is the biggest problem the game has, because it's annoying to cross.

The classic games had very few bottomless pits, especially for the time, And I'd go as far as to say they should be removed entirely in the 3D games.

[Badnik Zero]

The snakey block platforms in Spring Yard go over a few bottomless pits, Phos. Leading up to the end of either act 2 or 3. And some areas in Death Egg like the pits the electric floor platforms fall into are bottomless. The seesaw platforms also fall into pits, and a few out of the way areas kill you with pits if you happen to wander into them.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

As for Sky Sanctuary, you actually would have to LOOK for the bottomless pits before falling into one. Most of the pits there have you floating in the air keeping you from dying, and if you're in the higher area's of the game you'll just fall down into the lower parts of the level. Although there are some parts that have you fall straight to your death, but's it's not exactly likely that'll happen in that stage.

[Badnik Zero]

What about other classic forms of insta-kill? I remember there being more than a few crushing death areas. Those are entirely gone from the 3D games, I think. Navigating moving blocks was harder then. Also getting smushed by the crusher things in Metropolis and other similar levels were pretty cheap kills.

Not saying it's worse than the 3D situation, but the classics murdered you too.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Ezra the Badnik

[speedfreak]

I haven't been following this thread to much because I know how crazy some get whenever a new Sonic game is announced. Anyway, are we thinking this game is going to be like an HD Sonic Rush for consoles or are we thinking it's going to be like classic Sonic? I'm good either way, but I have to admit I'd LOVE a new classic style Sonic after all these years.

Personal wish list

-High quality 2D animation

-Level design comparable to the classics

-Metal Sonic

-Robotnik/Eggman (I don't care either way) boss fights at the end of each zone

-Collect Chaos Emeralds and get to play as Super Sonic like in the classics

I really hope they get it right with this one. The damn cycle must die.

[LimeTH]

the ealier games didn't really have bottomless pits did they? I can hardly remember but I know for the most part if you fell you just fell to a lower part of the level.

I recall falling into a hidden one in one of the Green Hill Zone acts.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

What about other classic forms of insta-kill? I remember there being more than a few crushing death areas. Those are entirely gone from the 3D games, I think. Navigating moving blocks was harder then. Also getting smushed by the crusher things in Metropolis and other similar levels were pretty cheap kills.

Not saying it's worse than the 3D situation, but the classics murdered you too.

Maybe technically gone, but if you try for the Eggmanland Time Trials, you will learn to hate the chuckling Robotnik-faced pushers that shunt you out the 3D part of a 2D section, rather than paste you into the ground. :/

A point to consider, given that I finally managed to find some notes I'd written for a Sonic Rivals fanfic today; you do relaise that this Needlemouse premise has been done before, right? 2D Sonic with fancy graphix? That's Rivals 1 and 2 lookin' at you right there. And those games were greeted with, at best, complete indifference as far as I'm aware.

[azoo]

I would actually prefer 3D HD stuff, about "Hedgehog Engine" quality with SaSASR designs (classic environment and such, but Unleashed character designs). I don't really care if the game has classic Sonic or not, but it definitely would be a spectacular surprise if Needlemouse did have that.

As for gameplay, I pray to God that it is Genesis gameplay. If it isn't (and it most likely won't), then whatever, my interest will probably drop significantly.

The level design should be extremely explorable, filled with a mix of platforming and speed, and be HUGE, with a lack of too many bottomless pits. Also it should have many stage gimmicks (like the screw from MZ of Sonic 2) that made the levels so memorable.

Eggman should have a miniboss for Sonic at the end of every Act 1. He should fight Sonic himself with a crazy invention in Act 2/ Act 3/ whatever you want. He should be final boss; end of story.

As for the Chaos Emeralds... I'd rather them disclude them. Although Super Sonic is pretty cool, Chaos Emeralds are becoming a really stale staple of the series, and I would be surprised if a mainstream modern Sonic game could go without them.

[Solid SOAP]

In terms of visuals, I'm hoping that Sonic Team are taking notes on what Sumo did with Sonic Super-Stars Tennis. I don't want to be one of "those" guys, but that's really how a Sonic game should look. Colorful, wacky, and just pleasing to the eye. Sonic Unleashed looked very nice, but it didn't really look like a "Sonic" game to me besides all the bumpers and rings, it kinda just looked like they took areas around the world, made them really colorful and threw in loops and such to make it seem more like a Sonic game, the end result was good, but I will be extremely please if the graphics in this game look more like SEGA Super-Stars Tennis' Green Hill Zone than anything. Eggmanland in Unleashed was an absolute feast for the eyes though, that level is how Sonic stages should look, at least the Robotnik base stages.

I really hope they get it right with this one. The damn cycle must die.

In my opinion, the Sonic Cycle died with Unleashed, it's just a shame that others really don't agree, because I thought Unleashed was fantastic. The day stages, I mean. Playing them is absolute bliss, if this game is anything like them this will be the best Sonic game ever. I'm not expecting so, but if it is than I will be quite happy.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Solid SOAP

[speedfreak]

Also, I known it's stupid and not really needed, but I kinda hope Tails follows you around.

[Badnik Zero]

Maybe technically gone, but if you try for the Eggmanland Time Trials, you will learn to hate the chuckling Robotnik-faced pushers that shunt you out the 3D part of a 2D section, rather than paste you into the ground. :/

Speaking of, I hope they give us some 3D perspective stuff like that in this game. I haven't even played Eggmanland, but I remember stuff like that in some sections of Sonic Rush, like the slides in Mirage Road.

I was thinking about how great the through-the-wall speed tube thing in Green Hill would be with that. Maybe that's asking for too much though. I should be happy with the regular 2D. Classic is cool.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Ezra the Badnik

[JezMM]

Cheap deaths? Well while it wasn't intentional, I fucking loathe those moving block sequences in Spring Yard. They're so dull but if you try to rush 'em you get caught by the corners and get "crushed" all the friggin' time.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

It's never too early!

And on this note, anyone care to speculate on the general nature of Needlemouse's story plot?

Pertinent factoids that we do know include:

1) The sihlouette is almost certainly that of Sonic 1's logo

2) The trailer said "An all-new adventure"

3) This is supposed to be a game to appael to the retro crowd

Some ideas I've seen thrown around include "Sonic 1 HD remake", or some sort of pre-Sonic-1 "Origins" story, or possibly something set between S3&K and Adventure 1.

This talk of "Sonic 1 HD remake" can go right out the window on account of point 2, thankyou very much. I think an Origins story is highly unlikely as well, my suspicion being that the appeal to the Retro fans will lie mostly in gameplay style rather than "pre=qual / "inter-qual" setting - if only because of the lack of a rigorously-defined series canon, and something explicitly set in the franchise's past difficult to explain to players who haven't memorised what plotlines there are of older games. They can't exactly open like an episode of 24, and say "The following takes place between the events of Sonic 3 & Knuckles and Tails Adventures"... but neither can they open with a cutscene of Doomsday Zone coming to a close and expect all that many people to understand the connotations.

Consequently, I suspect a bog-standard, probably-takes-place-after-Unleashed-but-don't-expect-any-references style story, with Robotnik planning to take over the world through vague and unspecified means (possibly making some passing reference to the Emeralds), just as he did in every Genesis game and Sonic Advance 1 and 2 - but importantly, with no strange cosmic horror aiding him this time. Just the Fat Man and his robots out to raise merry hell. If they've listened regarding Unleashed, I expect they'll have Eggman as every boss and far most importantly as the absolute last Final Boss too.

Side-characters... I don't think anyone complained that Tails' role in Unleashed was too big. I'd personally like to see more (and playable on his own two feet - no Tornados or mechs!) Tails, but given that Needlemouse has the Sonic 1 logo and is there for retro gamers, I have to say I suspect that it might truly be whittled down to just Sonic and Robotnik as the only characters present in the entire game. If they don't go quite that far, I think the most character variability we can possibly expect is an S3&K-type setup of playable Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles.

(Although if ever there was a time to bring Nack back, it's in the game for retrofags. Plz, Sega? PLZZZZZ?!?)

Edited September 13, 2009 by Frozen Nitrogen

[JaidynReiman]

My opinions about the plot? I think it'll be one of two things.

The first idea is that it follows the events of the classic games, and links into Sonic Adventure. Basically, I kinda would like to see it start off on the islands, probably Westside Island, and Sonic and Tails chase Eggman down and arrive in Station Square, or at least some location in the United Federation, and Sonic officially becomes the "world renown hero" that he is in later games.

The second is that its a prequel to Sonic 1. Frankly, though, I prefer the first one.

Based on the idea of the first game, here's some things I'd like to see...

1.) Characters.

I think a good cast would be Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Eggman, Metal Sonic, and Rouge. They can add or take characters here and there, but I find this to be an ideal cast of characters. Maybe add in Fang, and throw some Big cameos in, but most primary characters later in the series shouldn't really be known. Shadow could appear as a secret unlockable character, but obviously he could not possibly appear in the plot. Rouge's past relations with the cast is made ambiguous in Sonic Adventure 2, so she can easily appear.

Playability, I think it should be Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, and Rouge. If there's extras, Metal Sonic and Shadow could be unlockable.

2.) Stages

I'd like a mix of stages. Green Hill Zone could act as a starting stage, but then Eggman attacks again and Sonic has to chase him down. The areas should include a couple from South Island and Westside Island. It would also be interesting to have the jungle of Prison Island to pop up, perhaps, before ending up in a U.F. city, which would also be a stage. Adding in the Death Egg in a sort of "prologue" would also be interesting, though it would confuse things to have it as a starting stage instead of a final one. Obviously Angel Island should also appear in some way.

So, the list...

Death Egg

Green Hill

Westside Island

Angel Island

Prison Island

Station Square

and perhaps others, such as the Mystic Ruins.

Prison Island's inclusion is that I figured it would be a little more interesting to have a "rocky" transition between the islands and the United Federation. I base it on Sonic washing on the shore of Prison Island after, say, he tried chasing Eggman and Sonic got caught by a wave of water.

Just some of my ideas, anyway. I highly doubt much will appear, save for Green Hill (oh come on, you know THAT is going to appear...)