Sonic the Hedgehog 4

[Solid SOAP]

I don't think Sonic should stay 2D. 3D Sonic games are pretty unique as well. Sonic should be in 2D and in 3D. There always should be both 2D and 3D games. In my opinion, a full return to the classics is a huge step back.

Damn it, Sega, give me more info!

Not all Sonic games after this should be 2D, but if this game becomes a success I'd like the majority of the "main" Sonic games to be made in a similar style to this game, be it in gameplay or aestetic design, as opposed to each and every game looking and playing completely different from one another in every way besides the main characters.

[Sega DogTagz]

Pretty much I just want the games to stop being so radically different from one another in aestetic design and gameplay, I would really like it if SEGA gave the "main" Sonic games one specific type of gameplay, leaving the gimmicks such as Werehog and guns to spin-offs. This game seems like the perfect opportunity to start doing that.

What stands out to you as a negative would probably be a positive to someone else. Whereas I agree that the franchise has been all over the place, I also must point out that it is that very same facet of adventure that also makes up what defines Sonic these days. Dude is an all out adventurer and if it takes a sword, claws or a small gang to tell his story, then you can bet he’ll dab his foot into it.

I see where you are coming from, but it has gotten to the point where it is kind of in Sonics nature to be all over the place as he is. Consistency is nice, but few things are consistent in Sonics world as it stands. At the end of the day Sonic is his own image, not the games he is within. That right there is proven by the overall success of his games regardless of concept.

I would like to see Needlemouse take up the mantle of the storybook series for the PS360 (as to not derail my precious 3D games). That way everyone is a winner….. except the Wii owners….

[Remy]

The side effect that I can see is tons of hipster asshole "journalists" going "I told you so" in unison towards the concept of 3D Sonic games, as if the very idea itself is flawed.

And while I don't think it will particularly matter towards a fanbase as completely insane as the Sonic one, I can see the problem being even worse within; perhaps further defining and dividing the retrofags and newfags groups even more than before.

The idea that people can band together defend games that have been universally panned whilst attacking games that have been universally praised is one that confuses me. Whatever. We should all just get along and play Sonic 2!

As for your first point- yes, haven't to listen to hipster game journalists be right about anything is freaking horrible, a goddamn travesty, but is it not better to at least have some praise for the franchise?

The 2D/3D Sonic split only exists in the minds of the fanbase, I think. The rest of the world would be happy with just having a good game, regardless of dimensions.

[Solid SOAP]

What stands out to you as a negative would probably be a positive to someone else. Whereas I agree that the franchise has been all over the place, I also must point out that it is that very same facet of adventure that also makes up what defines Sonic these days. Dude is an all out adventurer and if it takes a sword, claws or a small gang to tell his story, then you can bet he’ll dab his foot into it.

I see where you are coming from, but it has gotten to the point where it is kind of in Sonics nature to be all over the place as he is. Consistency is nice, but few things are consistent in Sonics world as it stands. At the end of the day Sonic is his own image, not the games he is within. That right there is proven by the overall success of his games regardless of concept.

I suppose you're right, Sonic really is about going all over the place and doing all sorts of different things, but I just don't like the whole "Oh God what gimmick will be in this one" attitude that I see all the time, I'd like there to be a new Sonic game announced and have people say "Oh sweet, another Sonic game! I wonder how they'll make this better than the last one!". It almost feels like each game is in a completely different universe too, no Sonic game besides maybe the "SEGA All-Stars" games truly look like a "Sonic" game, it's like SEGA just throw Sonic into random environments and just have him go with the flow. Sonic's world should have it's own look that people will identify with him, not just random landmarks around the world and generic looking beaches and volcanos and the like.

The way I feel, these "Needlemouse" games should be the "main" Sonic games, while his spin-off titles will revolve more around the silly gimmicks and things that fans like you crave. The main story (If one at all) will be pushed by these 2D-style games (Or at least games that are similar in art design enough to associate them with each other), but other games in the vein of Black Knight will be made so you can enjoy Sonic in different environments, stories, perspectives, etc. People will expect, fun and simple 2D platforming action cut of the mainstream games, and crazy gimmicks and different styles of gameplay for the spin-offs.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The 2D/3D Sonic split only exists in the minds of the fanbase, I think. The rest of the world would be happy with just having a good game, regardless of dimensions.

No it doesn't. If you noticed over the past several years the 2D/3D ordeal expands even outside the fanbase, with the more vocal opponents shouting out that Sonic only works in 2D.

They would likely appreciate 3D games if they were good, but nowadays the expected logic outside the fanbase is "3D = automatic failure".

[Remy]

No it doesn't. If you noticed over the past several years the 2D/3D ordeal expands even outside the fanbase, with the more vocal opponents shouting out that Sonic only works in 2D.

It's not like there isn't any evidence proving so.

[Sega DogTagz]

I suppose you're right, Sonic really is about going all over the place and doing all sorts of different things, but I just don't like the whole "Oh God what gimmick will be in this one" attitude that I see all the time, I'd like there to be a new Sonic game announced and have people say "Oh sweet, another Sonic game! I wonder how they'll make this better than the last one!". It almost feels like each game is in a completely different universe too, no Sonic game besides maybe the "SEGA All-Stars" games truly look like a "Sonic" game, it's like SEGA just throw Sonic into random environments and just have him go with the flow. Sonic's world should have it's own look that people will identify with him, not just random landmarks around the world and generic looking beaches and volcanos and the like.

The way I feel, these "Needlemouse" games should be the "main" Sonic games, while his spin-off titles will revolve more around the silly gimmicks and things that fans like you crave. The main story (If one at all) will be pushed by these 2D-style games (Or at least games that are similar in art design enough to associate them with each other), but other games in the vein of Black Knight will be made so you can enjoy Sonic in different environments, stories, perspectives, etc. People will expect, fun and simple 2D platforming action cut of the mainstream games, and crazy gimmicks and different styles of gameplay for the spin-offs.

It would be nice to see something familiar in terms of setting/style in Sonics games, but I must say that Unleashed was a very nice distraction. If they take what they learned from that and build a Sonic World, then they could finally have something in that department.

As for the gimmics in the console games, I never expect those to leave, but rather be better implemented. These things have been present since Sonic 2. Practically every game had a new play style or game altering abilities that set it apart. The Werehog is no different than Time Jumping in Sonic CD or playing as the Knux man in Sonic&Knuckles. We all know the gimmicks are coming; We just hope and pray that they are good.

---------

The problem about Needlemouse taking on the mantle of the main series in my mind has a lot to do with how they will present the stories. Though we know nothing about how it will be done, the Genesis esc style hints toward an extremely minimalist approach. To be honest, I do not think that such a process can do justice for many of the characters established into the series as of late and I would really hate to see someone like Blaze be thrown away because of it. If we see something later, I’ll revoke this remark, but till then this is my best assumption.

[Tornado]

The Werehog is no different than Time Jumping in Sonic CD or playing as the Knux man in Sonic&Knuckles.

The latter two were (optional) minor gameplay changes integrated into the normal gameplay. The Werehog was practically a different game, and was presented as such. There is quite a difference.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Tornado

[Sega DogTagz]

The latter two were (optional) minor gameplay changes integrated into the normal gameplay. The Werehog was practically a different game, and was presented as such. There is quite a difference.

They were still gimmicks, they were just implemented on a far Superior scale. That has been the problem with the gimmicks we have been getting as of late.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Sega DogTagz

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's not like there isn't any evidence proving so.

I'm just saying that it's doesn't just exist in the kinds of the fanbase as you may think.

Edited September 12, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Dr. Good Girl]

Response to first post:

I'm not gonna get too hyped up on this game. Remember how people got all excited for Sonic 06 and when it's first screen shots and trailers were released? It was shit pants glory, it looked like a new direction for the series that got everyone anxious. Then it came out the complete opposite. Then the other games released afterwords were heavily mixed with reviews. SEGA is completely making Sonic just for the money and business nowadays. In 2008 we got like 4 Sonic games released, ridiculous. And lately that's not what's getting me all hyped about this game yet.

This game could prove me wrong though, it could probably be advantageous. Especially for Sonic's 20th anniversary, it's gotta be something special. But I have every reason to worry.

[Tornado]

You misunderstand my point (though I may be misunderstanding yours):

They were still gimmicks

You'd likely get quite alot of arguments about that particular statement by itself, particularly the Knuckles bit. There is a (admittedly ill-defined) line regarding what parts of a game are gimmicks and what parts are normal gameplay. In essence, there is a point where a gameplay variation ceases being a gimmick and starts being just as normal as the supposedly normal gameplay.

I'd personally say it is quite a stretch to call the Knuckles gameplay of S&K a mere gimmick when it is integrated to pretty much the same extent as the "normal" gameplay is. The Time Travel bits were comparably more tacked on, yes, but even those I would hesitate to call mere gimmicks when its clear that many aspects of the game were designed around it.

Now Knuckles in Sonic 2? That's a gimmick.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Tornado

[Dummy Bear]

A 3D Sonic game is possible and can work, but it's been a decade and things just haven't been going well for our blue friend. Also, didn't they say at Sega that the Day levels in Unleashed took a lot of rescources and that's why they added the Werehog to pad out the game? Maybe a 2D could take up less resources. Now, I liked Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 and wished that Sega could create another 3D game as fun as them(Unleashed comes close, tho), but I'd like to see how this game works out.

Speaking of 3D, one thing I always found odd was how most 2D games don't "work" in 3D for some reason.

Sonic, Castlevania, Contra, Earthworm Jim, Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, Mega Man, etc. Apparently only Mario* is allowed to work in 3D. Huh...

*Note, yes I'm aware of the Zelda titles and as far as I'm concered they were always in "3D" so to speak. And Metroid. Iunno...

[Tornado]

Speaking of 3D, one thing I always found odd was how most 2D games don't "work" in 3D for some reason.

You speak of the polygonal ceiling. Part of the problem is that many of the games that you listed (as an example) dramatically changed gameplay focus as they went 3D, when they really didn't have to. Nothing strictly prevents there being a Castlevania game that is 3D, but every time Konami has tried to do one they have made a game that doesn't play like a Castlevania game. The reason that Mario, Zelda and Metroid have worked in 3D is because Nintendo didn't change the gameplay style when they added a third dimension, they merely supplanted it. Rayman is another example.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Tornado

[Sega DogTagz]

You misunderstand my point (though I may be misunderstanding yours):

You'd likely get quite alot of arguments about that particular statement by itself, particularly the Knuckles bit. There is a (admittedly ill-defined) line regarding what parts of a game are gimmicks and what parts are normal gameplay. In essence, there is a point where a gameplay variation ceases being a gimmick and starts being just as normal as the supposedly normal gameplay.

I'd personally say it is quite a stretch to call the Knuckles gameplay of S&K a mere gimmick when it is integrated to pretty much the same extent as the "normal" gameplay is. The Time Travel bits were comparably more tacked on, yes, but even those I would hesitate to call mere gimmicks when its clear that many aspects of the game were designed around it.

Now Knuckles in Sonic 2? That's a gimmick.

Well, I guess everyone draws the gimmick/new-gameplay-idea in different places. (I could be persuaded to agree with you on S&K) The Werehog in particular, is everyone/s favorite gimmick to smash, yet it was so flushed out (PS360)that I believe that someone with no history with Sonic would be hardpressed to call it a gimmick in the first place.

The thing I was trying to say is that new and diverse gameplay elements/gimmicks are always popping up with new Sonic games. The oldschool games introduced them in a much more efficient matter, so people tend to overlook them. Many of the newschool additions have been abominations and left a bad taste in everyone/s mouths. Anything new gets casted aside as another bad gimmick when it is well within the heritage of the series to test new waters.

[Candescence]

Part of the problem is that many of the games that you listed (as an example) dramatically changed gameplay focus as they went 3D, when they really didn't have to.

Not that this is a bad thing, mind you. Mega Man Legends and its sequel were very good games in their own right, unfortunately, some people didn't give it a chance because it was so different.

Unfortunately, this can also lead to facepalm-worthy ones like, going with your Castlevania example, Lords of Shadow, which is a blatant God of War clone, and hell, the only thing that actually makes you think it's a Castlevania game is the whip, it doesn't have any of the charm of the previous titles, even the anime style of Rondo of Blood and the DS titles is less generic. It's like they've, like Star Fox Adventures, taken an existing project, adapated it to the Casltevania universe, and, if the latest trailer is of any indication, hastilly shoe-horned in the Belmonts and Dracula. Yes, Kojima is on the project... As a supervisor. MercurySteam are developing it, and they made Clive Barker's Jericho, which was yet another generic and brown FPS, from what I hear. I suspect Kojima's only there to make people interested. Oh, dear, am I ranting again?

Anyway, the "adaption decay" version isn't the only major reason, mind you. As the Polygon Ceiling trope page describes...

Gameplay offers some very perplexing challenges too. A direct adaptation of 2D gameplay into 3D gamespaces can cause things like the dreaded Camera Screw. 3D gameplay, by necessity of both viewpoint and larger gamespace, needs to take things a bit slower than their 2D cousins.

Mega Man X7, unfortunately, as TvTropes describes, was one long, hard camera screw. Also, Flame Hyenard. BURN, BURN, BURN TO THE GROUND!

[Marcello]

I could see the game looking like Sega DogTagz Avatar

Edit: Just wanted to see how it would look in Blue. But I changed it back now.

Edited September 12, 2009 by MarcelloF

[Remy]

And I can barely read your text!

[Phos]

You speak of the polygonal ceiling. Part of the problem is that many of the games that you listed (as an example) dramatically changed gameplay focus as they went 3D, when they really didn't have to. Nothing strictly prevents there being a Castlevania game that is 3D, but every time Konami has tried to do one they have made a game that doesn't play like a Castlevania game. The reason that Mario, Zelda and Metroid have worked in 3D is because Nintendo didn't change the gameplay style when they added a third dimension, they merely supplanted it. Rayman is another example.

Actually, I think that Castlevania 64 played a lot like how you would expect a 3D incarnation of the series to play like, aside from being really terrible. The developers just had no clue how to set up a camera or present a challenge in 3D.

Earthworm Jim I haven't played, but it looks to me like it's biggest problem was expecting an inordinate amount of precision out of the player. They tried to impose 2D sensabilities into a 3D setting, and you're left with a game where the only gameplay is avoiding death. At least that's what I gather.

Mortal Kombat always kind of sucked if you ask me. When it came out it was fun but, but it lacked a lot of the depth of Capcom's offerings.

Street Fighter is basically a contest to control space in a 2D plane, but a good 3D fighter deals more with placement and timing. I would liken a 3D street fighter game to a video projector with no screen. Megaman and Contra both suffer from a similar but not precisely identical problem

What makes Sonic different from these other games is something it shares with Mario: Neither game ever asked for a great deal of precision from the player. Mario can jump considerably higher and farther than he really needs to to clear the gaps and such he has to cross. Sonic is similar in this fashion, but demanded even less precision. Bottomless pits were rare, enemies could be hit from any side, and if you did take damage, you could get it back from the rings. Sonic Adventure 1 tried somewhat to continue this, and it worked pretty well, though not quite perfect. Then Sonic Adventure 2 came along and tasked you with memorizing the early levels if you wanted to be quick, and memorizing the later levels if you didn't want to be dead, and the series never really recovered from there.

[Kintor]

What makes Sonic different from these other games is something it shares with Mario: Neither game ever asked for a great deal of precision from the player. Mario can jump considerably higher and farther than he really needs to to clear the gaps and such he has to cross. Sonic is similar in this fashion, but demanded even less precision. Bottomless pits were rare, enemies could be hit from any side, and if you did take damage, you could get it back from the rings. Sonic Adventure 1 tried somewhat to continue this, and it worked pretty well, though not quite perfect. Then Sonic Adventure 2 came along and tasked you with memorizing the early levels if you wanted to be quick, and memorizing the later levels if you didn't want to be dead, and the series never really recovered from there.

Personally, I've always found these complaints about memorising levels strange. Knowing the layout of levels, the location of secret items and alternative routes, are the bread and butter of platforming games. If anything, I think the older 2D platformers are notorious for this, requiring more from the player then anything on the market today. Just consider Sonic 1 and 2 for the Sega Master System, games which are in my opinion two of the hardest Sonic games ever made. These titles really push you as a player, memorising every boss sequence and the location of each Chaos Emerald is the only way to win.

This is not to be considered a negative; beating such challenges are what define gamers, a little sense of accomplishment for investing several hours of your life into the game. If anything I think that the new Sonic games are far more forgiving when it comes to memorisation, at least if you get a game over now you only have to start the level over and not the whole game.

Still, some players have been concerned about the difficulty of current Sonic games. I think Sonic Team has been paying attention in this regard. Many of the level in Sonic Unleashed are an improvement over what has come before; some don't even have any bottomless pits, in this way the player doesn't have to memorise much at all. This arguably, was a necessary evolution of platformers. Many older games were almost impossible to beat; I think that this was to the detriment of the industry as a whole.

[FeathersMcGraw]

I'm fairly sure the argument that Phos was making is that players are outright punished for not having prior knowledge of a level. Of course, as you stated Kintor, having prior knowledge of a level should be rewarded (usually in the form of secrets, awards and shortcuts to add depth and replay value), but killing the player for not playing a level before is just objectively bad design.

Edited September 12, 2009 by FeathersMcGraw

[Indigo Rush]

I could see the game looking like Sega DogTagz Avatar

Edit: Just wanted to see how it would look in Blue. But I changed it back now.

You know, that's not a half-bad idea! I'd prefer a 3D style on a 2D plane, but if they go the fully 2D route, that's the way to go.

Nice thinking, Marcello, mah boi!

[Scarlet2106]

The only reason I find the 'memorizing levels' complaint strange is that there is literally only one stage I've ever had to do that for. Goddamn Crazy Gadget. Everything else, I found my way through just fine. That's really the only case of trial and error I can think of.

[Candescence]

That complaint would pretty much be why I dislike the 360 version of Unleashed. Well, besides the bloody medals.

Edited September 12, 2009 by The Sniper

[Marcello]

Why is barely anyone actually talking about this game? We have 19 pages and most of it has little to nothing to do about this game. I know we don't have info, but then don't post so much.

BTW My complaint is coming because, every day when I get on the internet and check here there are like 2-3 new pages and I have it set up for like 50 messages per page. It's annoying reading them all, wespacially when they have nothing to do with this game.

And yes I know that my post has also nothing to do with the game..

Edited September 12, 2009 by MarcelloF