Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Eggman in the comics is the perfect Eggman. Committing villainous atrocities and such without a care in the world, and hardly even flustered by his opponents whose names don't rhyme with Chronic the ledge-dog. He's basically the joker but with no subtlety and consistent writing.

In fairness, that is what he's acted like in recent games, the problem is that none of the other characters take things seriously, and it undermines the character's intent.

Actually no, he straight-up suggested destroying the entirety of Lost Hex to get rid of the D6.

Eggman is consistently the best written and acted character in any incarnation, it's how the others react to him that needs to change, not he himself.

And psycho Eggman is a dumb idea that would go over terribly and be the edgiest and least-fun thing ever. This is a game about a cartoon blue hedgehog that fights a guy with a giant mustache and a big silly grin. You can add tension, maturity and genuine characterization without going stupid grim-dark, and anyone who doesn't understand that need only look at Shadow the hedgehog to understand why the opposite doesn't work.

Just make a good story, and the level of darkness it's in is completely 100% irrelevant. Look at Steven Universe or Adventure Time. Family TV shows that never get much darker than you could expect out of Sonic, but are still complex narratives with great character development and paralleling plotlines.

Ahhhh...

You're on uh... THAT side of the debate... One of... Those types...

Yeah, I can see we wouldn't get anywhere beyond an endless argument.

Agree to disagree with you on this.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I'm sorry, thinking a story can be good without being overly dark would be an "endless argument"?

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

You're going to tell me we all think nobody died in Unleashed when he blew apart the world? Bound to be people that fell into the crater.

Do you think any of the characters in the game would have mentioned something like that happening if it did? Don't you think it's possible that the planet cracked in unpopulated areas and that's why no one seems to care that it even happened? 

 

2 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

What about when he LITERALLY threatened to nuke civilizations using the ARK if the government didn't submit...?

Actually, yeah, focus on the ARK, dude was ready to start firing until things gunked at the end.

The ark was a threat. He waved it around to get what he wanted, but there'd be no point in firing it because it would wipe out the planet he intended to build his empire on. When the planet was ACTUALLY in danger of being destroyed, he dropped everything and helped stop it 

2 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Then there was, despite being horribly written, Lost World where, sure, he didn't want to kill everything, but he definitely didn't care what/who died in the areas he did target.

 

That just ties into my point about him being careless, though. He'll do what's needed to get what he wants, but he's not about destruction for the sake of it most of the time. This should be clear from the games.

Even you were right about all these instances, it's still a far cry from the stuff you posted earlier that prompted this conversation in the first place.

Quote

Naw, the idea of a psychopathic kill frenzy Eggman appeals more to me.

Watching as his machines go into meltdown mode from all the mass production going on, but he doesn't care.

His fleets all over the world blowing everything up and killing one after another.

All with a malicious grin on his face as his machines blow up behind him, still spitting out bots...

Do you see how this works now? You can't tell me a character "should" be a certain way off an assumption or a thing you made up in your mind.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Josh said:

Do you think any of the characters in the game would have mentioned something like that happening if it did? Don't you think it's possible that the planet cracked in unpopulated areas and that's why no one seems to care that it even happened? 

 

The ark was a threat. He waved it around to get what he wanted, but there'd be no point in firing it because it would wipe out the planet he intended to build his empire on. When the planet was ACTUALLY in danger of being destroyed, he dropped everything and helped stop it 

That just ties into my point about him being careless, though. He'll do what's needed to get what he wants, but he's not about destruction for the sake of it most of the time. This should be clear from the games.

Even you were right about all these instances, it's still a far cry from the stuff you posted earlier that prompted this conversation in the first place.

Do you see how this works now? You can't tell me a character "should" be a certain way off an assumption or a thing you made up in your mind.

The canon is capable of destroying a massive radius without destroying the planet itself.

He was more than happy to destroy places with it, not the planet itself entirely, so it makes sense. He needs the planet, not the people.

No, that was just a few lines in Sonic X and Lost World.

Alrighty then.

[RictalRose0]

When we're talking about comic Eggman are we talking post-reboot Eggman? Or Pre-reboot Eggman? And which one, DeCesare/Gallagher era Eggman, Penders era Eggman, Bollers era, Flynn era? Because I think the best comic Eggman is reboot Eggman. See some people say Flynn era pre-reboot comic Eggman is the best comic Eggman but I disagree. He was a little too psychotic to my liking, like that was the point of that arc. Eggman goes mad due to all his loses but I don't think Flynn pulled it off tbh. He writes him much better in the reboot. He's not discount fat Joker anymore. He's what he's supposed to be according to the games. And i'm not even gonna talk about the other eras because they really sucked for the most part, especially Eggman. At least DeCesare was funny. 

Also, game Eggman is best Eggman, fight me boys.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, RictalRose0 said:

When we're talking about comic Eggman are we talking post-reboot Eggman? Or Pre-reboot Eggman? And which one, DeCesare/Gallagher era Eggman, Penders era Eggman, Bollers era, Flynn era? Because I think the best comic Eggman is reboot Eggman. See some people say Flynn era pre-reboot comic Eggman is the best comic Eggman but I disagree. He was a little too psychotic to my liking, like that was the point of that arc. Eggman goes mad due to all his loses but I don't think Flynn pulled it off tbh. He writes him much better in the reboot. He's not discount fat Joker anymore. He's what he's supposed to be according to the games. And i'm not even gonna talk about the other eras because they really sucked for the most part, especially Eggman. At least DeCesare was funny. 

Also, game Eggman is best Eggman, fight me boys.

I think his incarnation from CD and the Adventure games is the best.

CD emphasized his "zero f@$ks given" mindset toward nature and living things/people.

Then the Adventure games emphasized his "Hail Eggman!!" persona, give in or die.

That... That was an awesome time.

[RictalRose0]

Eggman is surprisely the most consistent character in the game series tbh. Whereas the other characters tend to be all over the place with their characterization or their relevance, Eggman always stays well written for the most part. Not even the Pontaff can screw up Eggman.

[Wraith]

3 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

The canon is capable of destroying a massive radius without destroying the planet itself.

 

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Just now, RictalRose0 said:

Eggman is surprisely the most consistent character in the game series tbh. Whereas the other characters tend to be all over the place with their characterization or their relevance, Eggman always stays well written for the most part. Not even the Pontaff can screw up Eggman.

Eggman's PA announcements in Colors are some of the best humor in the franchise. If they ever get to properly rereleasing that game (which needs it the most, fight me Unleashed4PC scrubs) they should set those to play on the loading screens.

[SpongicX]

After looking at some Youtube comments, I can't believe there are some people that think others should stop whining, just because they're upset that 2d gameplay is forced upon Modern Sonic's gameplay. Well let me ask you this in return. How would you guys like it, if 3d sections were forced upon Classic Sonic's gameplay in both Sonic Forces, and Sonic Mania?! See what I'm saying?! 2D is getting too much attention now in days. I personally like 3d better, because it feels less limited on both visuals and controls. I get more fun out of 3d games than 2d games. I'd rather there be a good balance of 3d and 2d games, that way anyone can get their fair preference of video gameplay,  but now in days, 2d is getting too much attention. It almost feels like the gaming industry is going backwards. Back than, 2d games were made due to limitations in technology. Technology evolved to finally allow games to break the linear mold of 2d sidescrollers, yet all developers ever seem to want to make now in days are either 2d sidescrollers, or repetitive shooting games! I wish there was more respect for the 3d games, like Sonic Adventure. Banjo-Kazooie is somewhat making a comeback with Yooka-Laylee, and even Mario 64 and Galaxy are making a comeback with Mario Odyssey, so why can't Modern Sonic make a comeback with Sonic Adventure's sense of exploration of characters?...

[RictalRose0]

But leaving Eggman aside a little, I hope Forces redeems Knuckles from the super flanderization he has suffered recently. He's so goddamn dumb now. And that Sonic Boom turned that up to 11 doesn't help. The last game he was on was Lost World, and in there he was just there for a gag and then he like, dies. Even Amy got it better in her one minute cameo. And in generations again he's just there to be dumb and a gag, Amy slaps him into a tree. I hope Knuckles isn't a huge dummy in this game too, I feel bad for Knuckles fans tbh.

[Diogenes]

Just now, SpongicX said:

Well let me ask you this in return. How would you guys like it, if 3d sections were forced upon Classic Sonic's gameplay in both Sonic Forces, and Sonic Mania?!

So long as it was good I'd be cool with that. Well, it'd be a bit of a shame with Mania because it is very specifically a retro-styled game, but Forces could really afford to have it, since I doubt they'll do anything else interesting with classic Sonic.

[StaticMania]

6 minutes ago, RictalRose0 said:

Eggman is surprisely the most consistent character in the game series tbh. Whereas the other characters tend to be all over the place with their characterization or their relevance, Eggman always stays well written for the most part. Not even the Pontaff can screw up Eggman.

Nah, people quite disliked his portrayals from Heroes through Nex Gen...for understandable reasons, I guess. That was a level drop, for a while. Just like the 3D games .

[Shaddy Zaphod]

4 minutes ago, SpongicX said:

After looking at some Youtube comments, I can't believe there are some people that think others should stop whining, just because they're upset that 2d gameplay is forced upon Modern Sonic's gameplay. Well let me ask you this in return. How would you guys like it, if 3d sections were forced upon Classic Sonic's gameplay in both Sonic Forces, and Sonic Mania?! See what I'm saying?! 2D is getting too much attention now in days. I personally like 3d better, because it feels less limited on both visuals and controls. I get more fun out of 3d games than 2d games. I'd rather there be a good balance of 3d and 2d games, that way anyone can get their fair preference of video gameplay,  but now in days, 2d is getting too much attention. It almost feels like the gaming industry is going backwards. Back than, 2d games were made due to limitations in technology. Technology evolved to finally allow games to break the linear mold of 2d sidescrollers, yet all developers ever seem to want to make now in days are either 2d sidescrollers, or repetitive shooting games! I wish there was more respect for the 3d games, like Sonic Adventure. Banjo-Kazooie is somewhat making a comeback with Yooka-Laylee, and even Mario 64 and Galaxy are making a comeback with Mario Odyssey, so why can't Modern Sonic make a comeback with Sonic Adventure's sense of exploration of characters?...

You just said in 100 words what should have been said in 10, but I agree that this franchise is largely ungrateful of things that don't matter as much.

 

That said, nothing will change if people are silent about what they like and dislike. What are people supposed to do if they want to see some improvement in modern Sonic's level design after 3 games of way too much 2D? They can't just walk over to Sonic Team and start working there.

[RictalRose0]

Eggman went through that period in time where he was getting upstaged by everyone else for a while in the mid 2000's yeah. Metal Sonic in heroes, Shadow in Shadow the Hedgehog, and Mephhiles/Iblis/Solaris in 06. But aside from those three games he's mostly consistent compared to the others. And then again he doesn't really have a bad performance in 06, is just like how Sonic is overshadowed by Shadow/Silver's story he too takes a backseat in the plot. Really the only problem is that he looks silly due to the realistic aesthetic.

[Celestia]

30 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

He was more than happy to destroy places with it, not the planet itself entirely, so it makes sense. He needs the planet, not the people.

Yes he does, otherwise who's gonna worship him? It's been established since Adventure that the dude wants everyone to recognize him as the greatest genius on the planet. Even recently, his plan in Colours was literally to mind control everyone into loving him.

Again, he clearly doesn't care too much if his actions do lead to people getting seriously hurt or killed, but even for a character who's not exactly known for common sense, him actively going out of his way to kill random people would blatantly contradict his actual goals. Now, those who actively try to stand in his way, yeah, he'll (try to) crush 'em, and he's more than happy to threaten mass destruction. I don't see how any of this isn't evil enough for a series' main antagonist, really.

EDIT: Though I will say I could see him actually going through with threats of destroying places if people fought back against him (like I said, he'll happily crush people standing in his way). In fact, I suspect that might just be what's happening in this game.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I mean...even in his darkest appearance, his plans only involve enslaving the population, not making them extinct.

[RictalRose0]

Good point but what was Eggman's plan in Unleashed? He breaks the planet into pieces and then makes Eggmanland. What was he gonna do after that? Go after Dark Gaiaa himself? Was he really crazy enough to rule the world in that state?

[Chris Knopps]

4 minutes ago, Celestia said:

Yes he does, otherwise who's gonna worship him? It's been established since Adventure that the dude wants everyone to recognize him as the greatest genius on the planet. Even recently, his plan in Colours was literally to mind control everyone into loving him.

Again, he clearly doesn't care too much if his actions do lead to people getting seriously hurt or killed, but even for a character who's not exactly known for common sense, him actively going out of his way to kill random people would blatantly contradict his actual goals. Now, those who actively try to stand in his way, yeah, he'll (try to) crush 'em, and he's more than happy to threaten mass destruction. I don't see how any of this isn't evil enough for a series' main antagonist, really.

So... You agree with me in a sense? ^^;

Not entirely I can see, but it sounds like a partial agreement.

From what I can see there's more in agreement that Eggman could be more serious/threatening/scary but not entirely kill-frenzy-crazy and that I can agree with as well as a middle ground thing.

(This is likely the one thing making Forces a positive for me, we're getting zero f@%ks given Eggman back)

22 minutes ago, Josh said:

I didn't figure we could make posts like that with just a pic...

However, look at the line.

"Capable of destroying an entire planet"

Yet when we've seen it fired, ala Shadow the Hedgehog, it CAN be restrained.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Yet when we've seen it fired, ala Shadow the Hedgehog, it CAN be restrained.

The only time it was used canonically in Shadow was to destroy the Black Comet.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Shaddy the guy said:

The only time it was used canonically in Shadow was to destroy the Black Comet.

I'm not saying it "stuck with the canon" what I'm saying is we have proof it can destroy masses of land without destroying the planet itself.

Come on, don't nit-pick like that man. Be reasonable.

[Celestia]

I mean, even just looking at SA2, when it only had a few Emeralds powering it, the cannon capable of destroying Earth only destroyed half the moon. I think it's fair to assume if you loaded even less Chaos Emeralds into it, it'd be even less powerful.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

I'm not saying it "stuck with the canon" what I'm saying is we have proof it can destroy masses of land without destroying the planet itself.

But that "proof" exists in an ending that's not canon. It's like trying to argue that Blaze is canonically from the future because of Sonic 06, even though Sonic 06 makes itself non-canon the same way Shadow's Last Story invalidates all the other plot paths.

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Come on, don't nit-pick like that man. Be reasonable.

Claiming your contrived "proof" is invalid is as specific as the "proof" itself. We're already arguing semantics here, I don't see why you've chosen to get bothered by it now.

[Radiant Hero Ike]

On the topic of Eggman going insane, I did that for one of my old edgy comics years ago.

Looking back at it I really, REALLY dislike it. Gonna have to say no to having him like that in Forces.

[Lady Soniko]

The Eclipse Cannon harnesses the energy of the Chaos Emeralds, which are a source of 

So really as long as they kept firing it, it could probably level an entire planet.