Sega Plans 2016 Thread "Join us for Dancing with the Sonic" "25th party livestream links in OP"

[BlueFlare]

12 hours ago, Chris Knopps said:

I'd give it more credit than that. Many people are giving it a lukewarm reception. Wary yet welcoming.

If you meant Fire and Ice, then no, at least for me. I hope it has nothing to do with the 25th anniversary. Instead, I'd rather get some of that other product they're dropping. The music collection seems the most interesting so far.

[Jango]

Yet again, no music from Sonic 3, except Angel Island and Special Stage. As for S&K? You know it, Sky Sanctuary and Death Egg, again... damn it SEGA, 22 years.

[SonicWindBlue]

Here are the first photos of the Selection and you're able to pre-order it via Amazon for $59.98. 

Sources: http://sonic.sega.jp/SonicChannel/soundcolumn/senoue/20160610_001060/ ; Amazon.com | Sonic the Hedgehog 25th Anniversary Selection

[JezMM]

6 hours ago, Jango said:

Yet again, no music from Sonic 3, except Angel Island and Special Stage. As for S&K? You know it, Sky Sanctuary and Death Egg, again... damn it SEGA, 22 years.

There's no music from Sonic 1 either except for Green Hill and Scrap Brain.  There's also no music from Sonic 2 except for Special Stage and Chemical Plant!  And as for Colours, not ONE track on the CD!  ...Except for Reach for the Stars, Aquarium Park, Planet Wisp and Nega Wisp Armor!

 

(Seriously what exactly are you saying here, coz if it's just "I don't like the tracks they chose" well... sorry?  It's been fairly well-established that there may be rights issues over certain songs in Sonic 3's soundtrack and it's not like their choices aren't popular or memorable).

[Jango]

18 minutes ago, JezMM said:

There's no music from Sonic 1 either except for Green Hill and Scrap Brain.  There's also no music from Sonic 2 except for Special Stage and Chemical Plant!  And as for Colours, not ONE track on the CD!  ...Except for Reach for the Stars, Aquarium Park, Planet Wisp and Nega Wisp Armor!

 

(Seriously what does your post even mean).

It means SEGA still has right issues regarding Sonic 3's soundtrack. These are the same tracks they've used in Generations. Why Ice Cap, which is arguably one of the most memorable tracks in the Genesis era isn't there? Or Lava Reef? Launch Base? It bugs me a lot. I wonder thought, if they are the original tracks, or this:

 

[JezMM]

Lava Reef is an oddball, but Ice Cap and Launch Base were both replaced in the PC version of Sonic 3 so there must be issues with those ones.

[TheOcelot]

1 hour ago, Jango said:

It means SEGA still has right issues regarding Sonic 3's soundtrack. These are the same tracks they've used in Generations. Why Ice Cap, which is arguably one of the most memorable tracks in the Genesis era isn't there? Or Lava Reef? Launch Base? It bugs me a lot. I wonder thought, if they are the original tracks, or this:

 

Hang on a minute. In the selection it's Angel Island act2. Why would they choose act2's track which is only slightly different act1? Weird choice.

We don't know for sure if the angel island track will be the original or perhaps the remade version used in Generations. If it is indeed the original then that's good news in terms of the music issues maybe finally being resolved (since Sonic 3's entire original soundtrack has been ignored by SEGA over the last few years). We need to wait and see.

It's a decent selection of tracks.

I'd like to see a 25th anniversary disc release of Colors soundtrack.

The bonus disc with opening cutscenes and some trailers is a nice idea!

[Hiki]

[removed]

[JezMM]

1 hour ago, JenScreePrimal said:

Hang on a minute. In the selection it's Angel Island act2. Why would they choose act2's track which is only slightly different act1? Weird choice.

We don't know for sure if the angel island track will be the original or perhaps the remade version used in Generations. If it is indeed the original then that's good news in terms of the music issues maybe finally being resolved (since Sonic 3's entire original soundtrack has been ignored by SEGA over the last few years). We need to wait and see.

It's a decent selection of tracks.

I'd like to see a 25th anniversary disc release of Colors soundtrack.

The bonus disc with opening cutscenes and some trailers is a nice idea!

It'll likely be the original, and that doesn't mean anything regarding the music issues being resolved:

The remade version in Generations only consisted of Act 1.

The original version of Act 1 appeared on the soundtrack CD included with the special edition of Sonic Generations (which contained the first stage theme of every game from Sonic 3 onwards - Sonic 1 & 2 weren't included so they didn't have to pay any more royalties to Masato Nakamura than they were already to use Sonic 1/2 music in the main game), so the remade version in Generations was seemingly done for the sake of it, not to avoid any rights issues.

 

The rights issues with Sonic 3's soundtrack seem to stem from PARTICULAR songs - namely the Act 1 Boss Theme, Knuckles' Theme, Carnival Night, Ice Cap, Launch Base and the Ending Theme.  Hence why the first two are replaced in Sonic & Knuckles, and all but the first are completely replaced for the PC release of Sonic & Knuckles Collection.  All these songs have evidence to suggest they were composed by Micheal Jackson or the other guest musicians assisting him.  It seems to be the case that SEGA only have the rights to distribute these songs as part of the original game program, hence they only appear in emulated versions of the game (which Sonic & Knuckles Collection for PC isn't).

[Chris Knopps]

One thing I don't get...

Originally no credit was wanted...

The man is dead...

Why should there be any issues revolving any of the music used in Sonic 3/S3&K considering this? They declined any credit and allowed SEGA to use the music anyways, therefore, every single second of every track should legally belong to SEGA.

[Tara]

Michael Jackson may be dead, but that doesn't mean the people who composed (or by extension, the record companies that own the rights to his music) do not still want money for their input.  Besides that, the music controversy goes far deeper than Michael Jackson.  Ice Cap Zone, in particular, was revealed to be an instrumental version of a then-unreleased track by the Jetzons called Hard Times, the keyboardist of whom was a very prolific collaborator with Michael Jackson.

And that is why the licensing controversy continues to impact us to this day. 

[Chris Knopps]

3 hours ago, Tara said:

Michael Jackson may be dead, but that doesn't mean the people who composed (or by extension, the record companies that own the rights to his music) do not still want money for their input.  Besides that, the music controversy goes far deeper than Michael Jackson.  Ice Cap Zone, in particular, was revealed to be an instrumental version of a then-unreleased track by the Jetzons called Hard Times, the keyboardist of whom was a very prolific collaborator with Michael Jackson.

And that is why the licensing controversy continues to impact us to this day. 

Huh...

I don't get it. All of this content should have been a major asset to the SEGA company. I wonder why they didn't go above and beyond to preserve their rights to use content as they see fit over the years?

This seems to be an issue with both SEGA and Archie combined when it comes to Sonic, there's so many loopholes that are left uncorked. It couldn't be that hard to patch things up today could it? Sure it would take effort/cash to do so, but it should be far from impossible for SEGA no matter what their current financial situations may be.

I'd say the inconvenience of having to secure everything would be far better than the inconvenience of having to double check everything you do/use revolving your own franchise.

[Tara]

You're trying to make sense of a business that has a history of nonsensical business decisions.

The world of copyright and intellectual property is one that is difficult and potentially expensive.  Not every case is extremely clear-cut, and sometimes money plays a much bigger part than actual ownership.

[Chris Knopps]

3 hours ago, Tara said:

You're trying to make sense of a business that has a history of nonsensical business decisions.

The world of copyright and intellectual property is one that is difficult and potentially expensive.  Not every case is extremely clear-cut, and sometimes money plays a much bigger part than actual ownership.

True...

I wish Sonic was big enough for those involved to say "Hey, it's an icon. You wanna use the stuff, feel free. A little tit for tat, and we won't mind. Great to be a part of it all!"

But... Wishful thinking I suppose.

[Tara]

Even huge, big name properties have to pay royalties for their use of media that doesn't belong to them.

Nobody says "Hey, if Disney wants to use this Justin Bieber song, they can just go right on ahead!"  It's just that Disney is rich enough that even if they didn't ask for permission, they could cover the cost of every possible problem.  I don't know where Sega sits financially, but if they're having this much trouble, they probably aren't in a position where they can do that.

[Chris Knopps]

4 hours ago, Tara said:

Even huge, big name properties have to pay royalties for their use of media that doesn't belong to them.

Nobody says "Hey, if Disney wants to use this Justin Bieber song, they can just go right on ahead!"  It's just that Disney is rich enough that even if they didn't ask for permission, they could cover the cost of every possible problem.  I don't know where Sega sits financially, but if they're having this much trouble, they probably aren't in a position where they can do that.

...Suddenly an inferiority complex is popping into my mind. That hurts for some reason...

Perhaps in a way deep down I consider SEGA on par with companies like Disney, but that's likely childhood idolization talking, what's left of it anyways.

(Smothers it away in coffee and bill woes)

[Sega DogTagz]

^ I see where your coming from. Sometimes I catch myself wearing those very same glasses.

 

But in full disclosure, Disney probably bankrolls more legal personnel then Sega has total staff. They don't necessarily have to be all too smart about picking their battles, because they have a much larger resource pool to pull from. A company like Sega has to juggle its priorities. It could go after the rights to some of its past music, but the benefits of doing so have to outweigh the cost of doing business.

[DarkRula]

Which is why SEGA's not using them. It's cheaper to not use them at all then try and get them back.

That's also why they changed the music for subsequent ports and games. So they don't have to resolve the issue.

[Chris Knopps]

15 hours ago, DarkRula said:

Which is why SEGA's not using them. It's cheaper to not use them at all then try and get them back.

That's also why they changed the music for subsequent ports and games. So they don't have to resolve the issue.

I don't think this is the case. They could easily get their money back via re-releases, remasters, soundtracks, etc.

As folks have mentioned there's an impressive demand for Sonic 3&K and the content within, so I'd say the benefits would outweigh the costs.

(God I wish we would've gotten Lava Reef Zone and Angel island Zone in Generations... WHY SEGA?!!)

[Tara]

This is all assuming that Sega's music CD's and digital downloads sell enough to make a profit.  I don't think anyone has sales figures on the last large-scale Sonic music collection.

[Hyp3hat]

On 6/11/2016 at 4:03 PM, Stephenb19 said:

I think it's really in SEGA' best interests that they prioritise resolving the Sonic 3 soundtrack issue as soon as possible, it doesn't seem like good practice to have all these loose threads. Given that pretty much everybody in the fanbase wants a Taxman version of S3&K, and that the Taxman ports would be great for PS4/XBOX ONE, It's not like they don't have a reason to. IMO if I had a franchise I wouldn't be able to feel at-ease if some assets were owned by external parties who could demand whatever they wanted for usage.

It's further compounded by the fact that Michael Jackson dropped the project and was never credited. It's only been confirmed recently, but still not in any official capacity - that might open SEGA up to being asked for payment.

And, y'know, he's dead. His estate (which would presumably own the publishing for things like Ice Cap as well) clearly don't view this as important, which is a double-edged sword - the music can't be re-released, which sucks, but MJ's estate aren't blocking the sale of S3&K on Steam/XBLA/PSN, which is good (and they would probably be within their rights to do so).

I'm sure SEGA would have loved nothing more than to remaster S3&K with 1 and 2, but the soundtrack issue would probably cost millions of dollars to resolve, with no guarantee that it would go in their favour. They could be indicted for selling S3&K for years with Michaels music in it, uncredited and possibly uncompensated. Or (this is more likely), they might want to renegotiate their royalty fees which could make either releasing the music on CD or in a remaster untenable. 

We don't know the contracts, but the fact that SEGA aren't pursuing this means that it probably isn't in their best interests to do so - it'd potentially stop them from being able to sell Sonic 3 at all, so the best case scenario is the one we have now. I'd guess that Jacksons estate are happy with the situation as is - revenue from the game currently is not worth fighting over, but if SEGA poke the bear and the estate see that SEGA are using MJ's music (as well as music they own the publishing for) to actually make some money, they may want to change it.

[Hyp3hat]

On 6/11/2016 at 4:30 AM, Chris Knopps said:

Huh...

I don't get it. All of this content should have been a major asset to the SEGA company. I wonder why they didn't go above and beyond to preserve their rights to use content as they see fit over the years?

I'm just going to add this, reading it over again - Because SEGA never owned those songs. Michael Jackson's publishing company do, because he wrote them, and there is not a snowballs chance that Michael Jackson, in the nineties, would have signed publishing rights to his material over to SEGA - that would have meant that SEGA could have sued Jackson over Stranger In Moscow, for instance. If The Jetzons guy was working with Michael Jackson, it's certain that he was also signed to that publishing company also, to avoid conflicts when songs they wrote together were released. If SEGA owned the material, this would not be an issue. And SEGA may have had deep pockets in the nineties, but not enough to buy Michael Jackson songs off him.

Re-releasing any music they wrote would involve SEGA negotiating a new licensing fee with that publishing company, and Michael Jackson's estate may not allow that to happen. It's their right, the same way that bands can refuse to use their songs in adverts or political campaigns. They may cite that Jackson was unhappy with the way the material sounded, which is why he left, and so to protect his legacy they would rather not release it. Or, as Michael Jackson material is extremely valuable, they could ask for a lot of money to use it, which SEGA can't afford. 

 

 

[Chris Knopps]

5 hours ago, Hyp3hat said:

I'm just going to add this, reading it over again - Because SEGA never owned those songs. Michael Jackson's publishing company do, because he wrote them, and there is not a snowballs chance that Michael Jackson, in the nineties, would have signed publishing rights to his material over to SEGA - that would have meant that SEGA could have sued Jackson over Stranger In Moscow, for instance. If The Jetzons guy was working with Michael Jackson, it's certain that he was also signed to that publishing company also, to avoid conflicts when songs they wrote together were released. If SEGA owned the material, this would not be an issue. And SEGA may have had deep pockets in the nineties, but not enough to buy Michael Jackson songs off him.

Re-releasing any music they wrote would involve SEGA negotiating a new licensing fee with that publishing company, and Michael Jackson's estate may not allow that to happen. It's their right, the same way that bands can refuse to use their songs in adverts or political campaigns. They may cite that Jackson was unhappy with the way the material sounded, which is why he left, and so to protect his legacy they would rather not release it. Or, as Michael Jackson material is extremely valuable, they could ask for a lot of money to use it, which SEGA can't afford. 

 

 

It wasn't Michael Jackson who disliked the way the music sounded, it was his legal team if I'm not mistaken.

[Hyp3hat]

14 hours ago, Chris Knopps said:

It wasn't Michael Jackson who disliked the way the music sounded, it was his legal team if I'm not mistaken.

This article says a little of column A, a little of column B http://testkitchen.huffingtonpost.com/michaeljacksonsonic/2/ .

Regardless, he's still dead, so he's not exactly going to be able to contradict his lawyers saying 'he was unhappy with the tracks, so he took his name off and because of that we're going to to respect his wishes and block any re-releases'. Again, that's their right, and there's nothing SEGA can do in that scenario save re-record the music.

[Guest]

From the description of Sega Europe's E3 stream tomorrow:

Quote

Join Dan, Chris & Pete for a very special SEGA Central episode live streamed from E3 2016! During the stream we'll have special guests from Relic Entertainment, Sonic Team and we'll be unveiling news for EU fans of Sonic The Hedgehog! That's not all we'll also be giving you the chance to win a headset from our stream sponsors LucidSound! Ask questions using #AskSega for a chance to have your questioned answered live on the show!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdwG9_q1cuY

So seems like some Europe-specific news about Sonic tomorrow.