Pontaff Retrospective: What's Up with all the Hate?

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

 

so long as the writing is not just this ^ then i am OK. i do not mind comedy at all, i don't like it when it's overdone. 

[Mecha X]

50 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

bringing this up to say that it looks like Pontac is back as a writer for a future Sonic game. http://aodsf.org/guests/

 

Hmm. Our degenerates really want "return our trust"!

[Dr. Detective]

I have a vivid memory of what my feelings towards my first exposure towards their writing was back in 2010. As a game fresh off the heels of Sonic Unleashed, a game that managed to combine a lot of elements I loved about the Sonic series and, while not being perfect, still managed to have a grandiose feel to it that gave me the sense that I had literally just explored the entire world and gave me a strong kick in the pants both with it's extremely epic ending and emotional residence concerning the characters it focused on. It managed to pull this all off, by the way, without going too far in one direction with the tone of it's story and made me feel nostalgic just having Sonic laze about in the Empire City hub for 30 minutes (I actually did that, yes). Coming off of that and going to Sonic Colors had me battling a hefty amount of disillusion.

I remember beating that game in a day and trying to find every possible avenue I could to try and say that I wasn't as disappointed as I knew I was. The reasoning, of course being, that the game was getting a lot of positive reception. Maybe not for it's story but the sentiment was there. However, looking back it's a testament to just how hard your true feeling shine when you remember your respect for the writing actually dropping AS you play the fucking game. 

I remember thinking to myself that it was a marvel seeing the characters written so much like this. They weren't just going on and on about what they had to do, they were actually trying to be expressive with jokes and minor bouts of actual conversation seemed to be going on here. However, after almost every scene a huge tick was jabbed at the back of my neck that left me not liking the scenes as much. I didn't discover until later was an extreme amount of annoyance.

These jokes, as pointed out by a lot of people, just go on for way too fucking long. And not only that, the more you try to experiences the cutscenes the harder it is to enjoy what they are. The absolute worst has to be what Sonic did at Aquarium Park. I honestly consider this story on par with Sonic 06 in how bad it is purely for how often it made me cringe. It's the opposite of going too far in one direction with 06's case and it was done in a manner that as a child, I probably would have found a little insulting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcWjxeYfWAw

What goes on at 0.28 onwards is nothing short of talking down to your audience. Any audience. There's no excuse for that, or for the scene at Asteroid Coaster, where he does the same goddamn thing again. They have nothing for him to do so they make him talk on and on and on and on, scraping at the bottom of that barrel, hoping you'll find something to laugh at. It's even more apparent when you watch the "You talkin' to me?" cutscene with Eggman and Cubot. Clearly they wanted to shove that movie reference in there so goddamn hard that they didn't seem to realize that the necessary steps they needed to take to make it make sense weren't there. Cubot asking if Eggman was talking to him makes no sense because the two of them were already in the middle of a conversation. Eggman saying that "There's nobody else here." makes no sense because Orbot is there. The reason they feel they have to do this with their jokes is because since they can't fill the spaces with anything of substances they'll give off the feel that this was just some heartfelt fun if they churn out joke after joke and not have it connect to anything. First of all, if you're going to do that don't put in any scenes where the characters are taking what's happening seriously. This was also something the back of my mind noticed when first playing the game but that scene at the factory where all the wisps were being loaded into the machine was some intense mood whiplash and it ended up being that way for no reason.

The only thing I did come out the game liking was how Tails' personality was being handled... but that changed as well once I realized that everything he said not only contributed nothing in the end but the remarkable amount of sass he had at the end of the game was perpetuated as something extremely embarrassing when you look the game over and realize that no, your translator actually did jack shit.

Sonic Lost World I actually consider miles and miles better then Sonic Colors. Each individual cutscene in Lost World is something I was able to enjoy and the cringe was practically gone for it too. That said, when put into a cohesive narrative, that's when there's problems. The scene where Tails snaps at Sonic is the one that suffers the most for me when it comes to this. Out of context, one could look at that scene and just imagine there was competent build up to that and it would have made watching it a whole lot better (aside from the terrible "You bite" lines). In the narrative, you watch it and you realize that Pontaff's attempts at making Tails' character more then it was is to just turn him into an bratty little shit. 

At first the story seemed like it was setting up the fact that Sonic needed to learn a lesson about jumping in too quick and being too hasty. However, the narrative shifts my sympathy towards him instead by having Tails act like a little asshole over something COMPLETELY different from what he should have gotten mad at Sonic for. So now it seems like the both of them have a lesson to learn. Sonic's got to learn not to be too quick. Tails has to learn not to be a jealous little tart. But no. 

After Sonic loses Tails again he comes to the conclusion that the reason he failed was because he wasn't fast ENOUGH. So what the fuck were they trying to tell us with that scene where he kicked the conch away. I love the hell out of that scene. It's still a really great scene and even better when taken OUT of the narrative context, like all of them, but it has no purpose if what was outlined by it disappears from the main plot. 

Tails, meanwhile, ends up learning... nothing. He doesn't apologize to Sonic for making the baseless and fucking ridiculous accusation that Sonic was trusting Eggman more then him literally one cutscene after the both of them expressed how much they didn't like working with him. Instead, Sonic apologizes to HIM like some sort of house broken whipped dog and Tails just accepts it. Sonic doesn't apologize for being hasty and going in too quick. He apologizes for something he never did and Tails has no comeuppance for it either. Well if the game isn't going to do it then I will.

God, that doesn't even make me feel better. That was Boom Tails and I actually really, really like Boom Tails. Unlike Pontaff Tails, he's actually a pretty cool kid. He's incredibly dorky and has a lot of noticeable self-esteem issues but he acts like a kid and knows how to act fun too. That's the kind of Tails I want in the games. Boom can keep everyone else but we need that Tails to stick around.

I'll close by saying I love the idea behind Sonic and Tails feuding and not getting along. However, whenever it's been done in the official media it's ALWAYS the worst thing ever. The idea was so good and so strong that it was THE thing that made me want to get into the Archie comics. I saw the cover of Sonic and Tails going at it and said to myself "I need to see that." I had no idea that when I read it I was going to consider it the absolute worst story I've ever experienced in anything Sonic related ever. 

The comics are a lot better written then the games but a problem I consistently have with them, even more so then in the games, is Sonic's character himself. He's way too arrogant and way too egocentric to be likable to me. It's been getting a bit better after the reboot but it was almost insufferable reading his portrayal there and actually seeing him say to Tails' parents, while pointing towards himself with a cocky smile on his face, that Tails would get over them being in jail because he's known him longer and the kid practically worships him. Not helping is the fact that Tails' reasoning for starting the fight ALSO has nothing to do with what the story initially led us to believe. Instead it was some random side-plot nonsense that wasn't connected to the current events at all. Tails was mad because Sonic was going out with his pretend girlfriend. A fox who looks exactly like a robot he had a childish crush on. That was the reason.

I yearn for the day I see this story done right. Pontaff isn't going to do it and they're not going away so all I can say is... I hope it gets better.

[lala24]

Are they seriously getting pontac to do the writing again? I know this was expected but still rubs me off the wrong way

[Badnik Mechanic]

I think some people are reacting way over the top over this news.

They're not that bad.

 

/insert a they're not that good joke here.

[Toa Axis]

Not surprising, but not very ensuring either. I expect that we'll get another tale filled with boring jokes that don't know when to stop, half-baked plot elements, and a complete lack of any sort of quietude. I'm quite prepared.

I really want a game to arrive with some ambition design wise, and narrative competence once more. Not even excellence, as that's something that seems well out of the current realm of possibility, but sheer competence at the very least. Something in the vein of Unleashed, the last game in the series that had lofty aspirations of any sort, even if it didn't quite stick the landing. 

Sorry for that little rant, as I try to refrain from those. I'm just so sick of this series wading in mediocrity. I just want something good from this game, and if such a thing happens, for that level of quality to maintain itself and grow even more.

My brain can be likened to scrambled eggs today. Blah.

 

[Big-C]

9 hours ago, Mikyeong said:

 

 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

You know, this might sound weird considering I sometimes make fun of Lost World and have some gripes with how the whole Sonic and Tails stuff wasn't built up or the lameass jokes but I do have to say that LW's writing of the characters and interactions is one of the best in the series and they actually took risks when it came to the main characters which is cool to see. 

[Myst]

No, not Pontac and Graff! Ugh. I need an asprin.

[shdowhunt60]

Yup. I got my Pontaff Bingo Card still ready. Gonna prepare another one.

[Komodin]

6 hours ago, Mikyeong said:

bringing this up to say that it looks like Pontac is back as a writer for a future Sonic game. http://aodsf.org/guests/

 

Well, I can't say that I'm surprised by this confirmation of sorts. I just wish that the fanbase didn't act as if this news is the end of the world or something hyperbolic like that there--it's one thing to not be fond of them; it's another to be needlessly mean about it.

[PandoloFox]

I seriously dont care at this point. Fine, pontac and graff are back, with a realy good editor they might be able to bring out an enjoyable story. My expectation are down the drain, but I can at least wait until the game is shown before I make my bed. And at the very least, the rest of the game might be good enough to make me enjoy it.

[goku262002]

Them again?! great. 

I was hoping that SEGA got the point by now and bring in some new writing blood (Ian Flynn for example) but SEGA insists on shoving these guys down our throats. Colors was okay in my book but everything else after has been a string of disappointments with very little enjoyment out of each.

[Chris Knopps]

...Imagine if the game IS about Classic Sonic (and maybe co.) and the writers do what they did to Classic Sonic/Robotnik what they've done to Modern Sonic/Eggman...

Oohhh the shit that will fly... And standing with an umbrella laughing I shall be.

This actually makes the anniversary funny in a cruel way really, assuming it's not about Fire and Ice.

Also, with them writing it almost guarantees Nintendo exclusivity because Microsoft/Sony/PC markets aren't into their type of plots I don't believe considering the types of games that are generally on said consoles. I don't see a Lost World script resulting in huge profits.

[Chris Knopps]

4 minutes ago, Detective Paradox said:

I really don't get how consoles affect the plot of a video game...

Really it's a matter of expectations for each console. Pontac and Graff might be suitable for Nintendo consoles, (with this becoming more and more debatable due to recent critiques from both big time critics and fans alike for their writing along with ever dwindling sales figures) but a Pontac and Graff story in a Sonic game on Microsoft/Sony/PC?

I dunno... I feel the plot is half the reason Generations didn't reach 2M sales initially, to me it should have far surpassed it during launch especially since it brought back Classic and was multi-console.

(Did the game ever surpass 2M sales sometime along the way...?)

I just feel they provide too empty an experience for consoles that generally provide more than what they have to offer for fans in their games.

[Wraith]

17 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Really it's a matter of expectations for each console. Pontac and Graff might be suitable for Nintendo consoles, (with this becoming more and more debatable due to recent critiques from both big time critics and fans alike for their writing along with ever dwindling sales figures) but a Pontac and Graff story in a Sonic game on Microsoft/Sony/PC?

Oh, I garuntee you Nintendo Fans don't just accept any old dog shit either. 

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority don't give a shit about the plot in Sonic. Otherwise they would have probably objected to Generations, but most people didn't and regarded it as the best game in years regardless of tthe fact that there wasn't a plot. Colors did betterthe Wii than Generations did on the PS3/360 because the Wii install base is much bigger and has more kids(Sonic's primary audience.) 

Most older gamers don't really care about the plots or the series in general. Sonic doesn't sell as well there because older gamers are apathetic toward the series and platformers in general.

[Clewis]

Not really surprised Pontac and Graff are sticking around.

The current tone of the franchise isn't exactly being ridiculed by the general public like it was during the aftermath of Shadow and 06, so I'm sure Sega sees no reason to try and find new writers for the series like they did after Unleashed.

[Toa Axis]

3 hours ago, Chris Knopps said:

...Imagine if the game IS about Classic Sonic (and maybe co.) and the writers do what they did to Classic Sonic/Robotnik what they've done to Modern Sonic/Eggman...

Oohhh the shit that will fly... And standing with an umbrella laughing I shall be.

This actually makes the anniversary funny in a cruel way really, assuming it's not about Fire and Ice.

Also, with them writing it almost guarantees Nintendo exclusivity because Microsoft/Sony/PC markets aren't into their type of plots I don't believe considering the types of games that are generally on said consoles. I don't see a Lost World script resulting in huge profits.

The thing is that the general public (by general public I mean the PS/XB/PC audience, though that doesn't necessarily exclude any and all people who primarily play on Nintendo systems) don't really care about narrative in Sonic games. Hell, there are a lot of Sonic fans that don't care about narrative in Sonic games. 

You also have to consider that public opinion of the series has diminished greatly, and many of those who don't closely follow the series--or at all, really--will often decry anything Sonic related at the drop of a hat, regardless of the actual game's merrits. Many of these folks also lie within--you guessed it--the general public. So right there, you have a stigma from a multitude of folks who aren't likely to buy Sonic games, who potentially otherwise may have. While platformers aren't the hottest genre around anymore, that subset of people aren't buying Sonic due to the series not appealing took their sensibilities at a base level, but because they simply view anything Sonic related as a Bad Thing (which, arguably, is fair). Now there are lots of people in the general public who will buy Sonic games without issue, but I doubt they buy them primarily for the story.

As for your story-related point, most fans of platformers in general, really, don't care for traditional narratives. Many don't mind if it's out of the way, but generally, fans of platformers couldn't care less.

The general public doesn't really care about narrative in a Sonic game, they don't sell based off of narrative, and I doubt they ever will.

By the way, Sonic sells well on Nintendo systems because the target audiences for him, kids and fans of platformers, are the primary consumers that buy Nintendo systems. They "type of narrative" has nothing to do with it, it's the type of game that Sonic is that appeals to Nintendo gamers.

[Chris Knopps]

46 minutes ago, Clewis said:

Not really surprised Pontac and Graff are sticking around.

The current tone of the franchise isn't exactly being ridiculed by the general public like it was during the aftermath of Shadow and 06, so I'm sure Sega sees no reason to try and find new writers for the series like they did after Unleashed.

From my viewpoint of the vast internet it is, more-so among the fans than critics, but still, it's happening more and more.

 

50 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Oh, I garuntee you Nintendo Fans don't just accept any old dog shit either. 

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority don't give a shit about the plot in Sonic. Otherwise they would have probably objected to Generations, but most people didn't and regarded it as the best game in years regardless of tthe fact that there wasn't a plot. Colors did betterthe Wii than Generations did on the PS3/360 because the Wii install base is much bigger and has more kids(Sonic's primary audience.) 

Most older gamers don't really care about the plots or the series in general. Sonic doesn't sell as well there because older gamers are apathetic toward the series and platformers in general.

I suppose currently this is true in a way... Nonetheless I see this as an exact reason TO make people care about plot in the franchise again instead of just being about an animal running around at the speed of quickly. Or... However Aaron does those joke things. The franchise needs to be recognized for more than just its game play alone.

[Akessel92]

Well it does have a comic series that is quite enjoyable. #flynn4sonic 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

2 hours ago, Komodin said:

Well, I can't say that I'm surprised by this confirmation of sorts. I just wish that the fanbase didn't act as if this news is the end of the world or something hyperbolic like that there--it's one thing to not be fond of them; it's another to be needlessly mean about it.

Oh yeah, outside of here I have seen people treat this like it killed their family members and stolen all their money. I mean yeah you can dislike them but...... yeah.

And like I said, Colors may have been a mediocre story but Lost World's character and interaction writing was the best this series has seen. And they did more with the main instead of them saving the day in a new character's story arc.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Mikyeong said:

Oh yeah, outside of here I have seen people treat this like it killed their family members and stolen all their money. I mean yeah you can dislike them but...... yeah.

And like I said, Colors may have been a mediocre story but Lost World's character and interaction writing was the best this series has seen. And they did more with the main instead of them saving the day in a new character's story arc.

I'd still like to think the company peaked with Unleashed and Black Knight and has been "Lost in their World" ever since.

I dunno... I'm on the ship demanding Japanese writers again. I didn't really care for Tails, well, PMS character in Lost World, feel like it was done better in Unleashed, Colors and Generations. Eggman was pretty much typical for his current character and Sonic was... Ehh... I didn't care for his amped up obnoxiousness.

[Dejimon11]

I'm hoping they take the criticism they got for lost world and will improve. I don't dislike these guys but I will admit that their writing hasn't really been all that stellar since colors. I doubt anything will be as bad Shattered Crystal though.

[Nepenthe]

Sonic Adventure 1 honestly had more interesting characterization and development than Lost World did, mainly because it endeavored to actually write characters with aspirations and goals that followed logically from their personalities and the circumstances that were happening around them, all without making either them or said conflicts aggravating. The only thing Lost World's narrative does that's commendable is try to discuss the moral implications of Sonic's actions, but it fucks that up so thoroughly that it doesn't get more than a gold star for effort.

Spoiler

It also actually got characters like Tails, Knuckles, and Amy in on the action but that's another rant for another time.

 

[Chris Knopps]

22 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Sonic Adventure 1 honestly had more interesting characterization and development than Lost World did, mainly because it endeavored to actually write characters with aspirations and goals that followed logically from their personalities and the circumstances that were happening around them, all without making either them or said conflicts aggravating. The only thing Lost World's narrative does that's commendable is try to discuss the moral implications of Sonic's actions, but it fucks that up so thoroughly that it doesn't get more than a gold star for effort.

  Reveal hidden contents

It also actually got characters like Tails, Knuckles, and Amy in on the action but that's another rant for another time.

 

I didn't like the tacky "love confession attempt" it pulled off with Amy, it just... I dunno... Oddly enough, brought back Elise vibes for some reason. It was just something about it that was really, really lame to me, plus the woman's voice acting in that scene was atrocious to boot.

Granted the game attempted to do... Something with the characters, but it felt like a desperate attempt to force character into them rather than just... i dunno... naturally doing so, It literally screamed to me that the writers know nothing about who they're actually writing about, even though we already had this confirmed beforehand that they didn't know the cast and Wikipedia'd the whole franchise.

I feel like rather than uphill, they went sharply, VERY sharply downhill. In the Colors/Colours title they didn't seem to butcher the cast at least.

(Seriously, what kind of game company hires writers who know nothing about their property and have zero personal attachment to it?)