Pontaff Retrospective: What's Up with all the Hate?

[Nepenthe]

I love how people think the characters had no personality back then because they weren't made out to be some combination of sarcastic and assholish all the damn time.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

1 hour ago, Dr. Chaotix said:

It's so much fun watching Sonic and Tails stand in a white void while the Time Eater flies over sometimes, does nothing, then fucks off again. What a grand adventure. 

Oh no no no, you left out the best part! Everyone just stood there like my doll collection and gave me such helpful advice! Oh yes sirree if it wasn't for them, I would have never have seen that damn homing shot! Damn, I am so blind! Thank you friends of Sonic

[JezMM]

5 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I remember hearing they had lot more creative freedom in Lost World than in Generations or Colors, so they might have been the scenario writers as well. It was in an interview that I cannot for the life of me remember. Regardless, I have no idea how close they work with Sonic Team, the former might have just said "Do whatever the fuck you want" and just treated the story as an afterthought after the game was finished.

In the staff credits, a Japanese name I cannot remember is billed as writer before Pontaff are, so it's safe to assume they were the original scenario writer, then the torch was passed over to the duo to write the individual cut-scenes.  Possibly with specifics on what the broad strokes of each cut-scenes were, possibly simply saying what the progress layout of the game would be and giving them free reign to decide where cut-scenes would fit, who knows.

[Vertekins]

The "Stories are too serious!" complaint is, quite frankly, bullshit.

Shadow and '06 weren't the only games released in the mid-late 2000's believe it or not.

SatSR. Unleashed. Black Knight. Holy shit even the two Rush games on the DS exist believe it or not and all of them are a hell of a lot better at nailing a tonal balance without ever feeling like they were veering off too far in any one particular direction to the detriment of the narrative or the characters than anything before them (With the exception of the Adventure's and Classic's) or after them (Colours+) ever accomplished.

I'll take Unleashed for example because despite it's rather nothing-y middle, it still manages to balance it's tones admirably.

Whenever Unleashed went serious such as in the intro i.e Sonic getting caught by Eggman in his metallic fist and escaping (That was friggin' awesome how he did that BTW), Super Sonic being trapped, reverted, tortured and transformed and the world being split and the penultimate scenes i.e Dark Gaia showing it's complete self, it ripping it's last fragment out of Sonic and weakening him to the point that he was rendered defenseless, it metamorphosing into it's perfect form and causing the planet to be enveloped in darkness, those things never felt out-of-place to me. Instead, it made me feel "OHHH shit's starting to hit the fan now!", gave me something to be legitimately interested in.

Likewise, whenever Unleashed exhibited it's light-hearted elements such as Sonic's and Chip's comedic antics i.e Sonic knocking him away with one finger after smacking into him after escaping the Chun-Nan Gaia Temple, Chip stealing the teapot in Pickle's lab after Sonic is too busy paying attention to what Pickle's saying to pour him more tea, those incredibly charming unlockable videos, it never felt overbearing, obnoxious and out-of-place. They were just small, legitimately humorous elements that didn't shaft plot development.

In other words, they were subtle. They went with the flow of the story instead of making it come to a halt for the sake of being blatant to the audience. Truly good humor in Sonic games IMO doesn't always have to do that - It's there without being the most prominent factor to the detriment of both the storytelling andthe characterization.

They were character-driven. When Chihuahua-Fairy does his antics, that's what I expect to see out of him because he is established as having a whimsical nature. When Sonic gets irritated with him, that's what I expect to see out of him because he has a shorter fuse in Werehog form.

Not relentlessly in your face and hard to swallow as a result of character derailment for the sake of "humor!"/"DRAMA!". Whenever there's drama, it's both worked up-to and decently executed. When it's touching as in the cutscene in which Chip reveals his true purpose and Sonic prevents him flying-off to do his job solo as he has no reason to stay around anymore insisting that he doesn't need a reason to help a friend, it never felt maudlin, never felt try-hard. I never felt that Kiyoko Yoshimura (Unleashed's writer) was flippant in regards to her execution of tone or that she didn't have a good grasp of character and therefore had to derail characters for the sake of tension or humor unlike Pontaff.

I've talked about how the Storybook games absolutely nail both tone, plot development and characterization before numerous times so at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm not going to reiterate.

So I'll finish on this; Unleashed, Storybooks and Rushes exist and they jolly well executed their stories and characterization admirably well and far, far better than Shadow, '06, Colours, Gens and Lost World ever did.

Quote

In the staff credits, a Japanese name I cannot remember is billed as writer before Pontaff are, so it's safe to assume they were the original scenario writer, then the torch was passed over to the duo to write the individual cut-scenes.  Possibly with specifics on what the broad strokes of each cut-scenes were, possibly simply saying what the progress layout of the game would be and giving them free reign to decide where cut-scenes would fit, who knows.

I believe you mean Yasushi Otake.

I always thought Otake adapted the script for the JP version from the English script. It would explain why some of the 'jokes' were rewritten i.e Sonic refusing to pay Eggman's Yen toll for the Ferris Wheel. Yes, Yen. Believe it or not. One of Cubot's voicechip glitch persona's being of a Sumo wrestler.

[Zaysho]

51 minutes ago, JezMM said:

In the staff credits, a Japanese name I cannot remember is billed as writer before Pontaff are, so it's safe to assume they were the original scenario writer, then the torch was passed over to the duo to write the individual cut-scenes.  Possibly with specifics on what the broad strokes of each cut-scenes were, possibly simply saying what the progress layout of the game would be and giving them free reign to decide where cut-scenes would fit, who knows.

I just looked up the credits, and Pontaff and Harumasa Nakajima are all filed under "Writers, Story, Script" so it's not totally clear who did what. I think it is a fairly safe bet that Nakajima provided some outline and directions for each scene and otherwise let Pontaff approach things however they wanted and then the script was localized back into Japanese with whatever changes Sonic Team wanted for that track while the American/English version was more or less left alone (and would explain the odd characterizations).

The credits for these games are never consistent, though. There's not always a "scenario writer" credit, sometimes it's just "game script" or whatever, which was a case with Sonic '06, for example (credited there are Shiro Maekawa and Kiyoko Yoshimura--she was a writer for Sonic X and was also credited as "scenario writer" for Sonic Unleashed). I'm not sure why they do things this way sometimes...

5 hours ago, SBR2 said:

I'm personally really excited that they're still doing Scripts. They pulled the plots heads out of their butts where they'd been buried for a looooooooooong time and are just writing fun adventures.

Things like this bother me because whenever people say these things, they pretty much only point to '06 or Shadow, which most have been in agreement were executed poorly or are just badly written in general, and neither are ever really indicative of the general tone of games that came before or after those particular entries. Are you going to say the Adventures, Storybooks, or even Unleashed don't fit the bill of "fun adventures" especially when put next games like '06?

Of course, this is entirely subjective. But I'm just going by general consensus here. If you feel those games don't do a good job of representing what Sonic's about, that's fine. That said, I'd still be hard pressed to say it's been a long time when we really only had two entries that are usually considered the low point between otherwise decent to good Sonic stories.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

Oh, your right how couyld I forget all the times that Sonic and Co acted like characters in the Adventure era games like *ENTRY MISSING*

Unleashed and Black Knight (the games I actually mentioned) weren't in the Adventure era. However, if you desire to talk about those, there are plenty of character moments you could bring up that were done a lot better compared to what we're getting now. And if character moments aren't your thing we could bring up specific events. Just say the word.

[Chris Knopps]

6 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

That depends on whether or not Pontaff actually tried to work with Sonic Team and were rebuked for some reason or if they just didn't give a shit to bother going to them in light of their perceived creative freedom.

And since we're trying to narrow down blame, is Pontaff responsible for Lost World's scenarios or just the script writing? Again, the idea to explore Sonic's mistakes is a good one but if that was actually the work of some Japanese dude then maybe Japanese dude should be writing instead.

Wasn't it told that Sonic Team/SEGA had set demands for the Deadly Six and co. and made the writers follow their demands?

I think there was much less freedom than let on, sounds even worse to me.

[Nepenthe]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Wasn't it told that Sonic Team/SEGA had set demands for the Deadly Six and co. and made the writers follow their demands?

I think there was much less freedom than let on, sounds even worse to me.

Sonic Team is going to set the outline of the story to some degree; it's their game and their property. Regardless, the Deadly Six have nothing to do with what I'm saying.

[shdowhunt60]

6 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

That depends on whether or not Pontaff actually tried to work with Sonic Team and were rebuked for some reason or if they just didn't give a shit to bother going to them in light of their perceived creative freedom.

And since we're trying to narrow down blame, is Pontaff responsible for Lost World's scenarios or just the script writing? Again, the idea to explore Sonic's mistakes is a good one but if that was actually the work of some Japanese dude then maybe Japanese dude should be writing instead.

I do suspect that there is an overall lack of communication between Sonic Team and Pontac and Graff: the amount of dissonance between the game's story and the game itself is only evidence of that. The fact that so many cutscenes just boil down to standing around and talking, or that we're getting absolutely no narrative context for a lot of the environments we're getting placed in (especially in the case of Lost World) really feels like an indication of that.

The kind of situation that we're in right now is that story and gameplay both exist in a void separate from each other. Sonic's had that problem certainly before Pontac and Graff came on board, but that was usually something relegated to handheld spinoffs with a few exceptions.

I can't help but wonder if this is a consequence of Pontac and Graff being writers based in the US. Nevermind how corporations tend to treat foreigners at complete outsiders, Sonic Team just might flat out not be interested in communicating with them.

This is kinda why I think that even having a writer that has a knowledgable grasp on the characters and setting, to the point where he even built a fully cohesive universe (which is something that Sonic Team never fucking managed, I might add) like Ian Flynn wouldn't be really a fix-all. At the end of the day, we'd still suffer from a lack of communication, and the story being left completely tacked-on as per usual.

[Gabz Girl]

It's really weird that Japanese Sonic games are now adapting their script from an American one when it used to be the other way round. Yet the game is made in Japan..? So odd.

[shdowhunt60]

I think it's more of a testimony of how much of a confused clusterfuck Sonic as a whole has gotten, and how that seems to progressively get worse as times goes on.

[DarkLight]

They probably figured since Sonic has almost always appealed more to the Western audience, why not get Western writers to do most of the script in English.

[Chris Knopps]

1 hour ago, shdowhunt60 said:

I think it's more of a testimony of how much of a confused clusterfuck Sonic as a whole has gotten, and how that seems to progressively get worse as times goes on.

Again, they shut down Sonic Team in the USA.

How can you make appealing game for the world based on various territories tastes tucked away on a little island in the east with only random phone calls and emails to connect you to the world...?

Their isolation was their mistake, and we're paying for it.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I do want to point out a thought I had about Pontaff's writing of the characters. It's probably not going to be agreeable but this is what I have to say:

I stand by my point that the writing of the characters and interactions in Lost World is the best this series has seen and the fact that they had the balls to do something with the main characters rather than them be heroes in someone else's story arc (especially if that someone else's story arc is really what the game is about). 

I also do want to say that I feel kind of the same way about Rise of the Lyric and Shattered Crystal when it comes to character interactions and writing. Yes the gameplay is pretty bad and the story is OK, however the characters felt like friends rather than mere sidekicks. There is even personality and development built into the gameplay itself. Even when you are playing, you know these characters have known each other for years judging by how they treat each other and the jabs they make at each other.

In short, the writing for these games and Lost World for that matter made the character feel more like real people, who just so happen to be anthropomorphic. They felt more like real companions rather than sidekicks and it didn't feel like one friend had priority over the others. One thing that irked me the most was that, yes Tails is Sonic's little brother, but in the modern games (except for Unleashed, Sonic Riders (maybe) and the story book series), it felt like Tails was Sonic's only friend while Knuckles and Amy, even though they were called "Sonic's friends"; they mostly felt like mere sidekicks of Sonic's or roadblocks. 

I want the main characters to feel like they are friends, and in the games I mentioned, they have. They are all equals and they all matter to each other. It was quite a breath of fresh air to see that. Also, per the interactions, it's a minor nitpick, but Lost World was probably the first game where Sonic and Tails actually had personal tension. Ok, mostly on Tails' end but still.... friends do sometimes have personal conflicts and that's OK. Not everything can be sunshine and roses, sometimes friends disagree and there can be tension but the important part is how it gets fixed. In short, these two felt a little more like real people in the game. They are best buds but they have their moments which makes it special.

I want to see more like that in future games and more interactions between the main characters.

[shdowhunt60]

And the reason they feel more like real people is that Pontac and Graff have effectively made Sonic and Tails (and to a lesser extent, Orbot and Cubot) their self-inserts. Anyone can write a character naturally when that character is themselves. That's not something that takes any skill. Hell, Roger has even speculated further on this as to how it fits even further into the direction that Sonic has been going in the past 6 years.

 

The particularly relevant bit is at 6:52

[Diogenes]

57 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

 

 

Oh wow.

I'd laugh, but I think he's trying to make serious points with this.

[shdowhunt60]

Yes. He is.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Just now, Diogenes said:

Oh wow.

I'd laugh, but I think he's trying to make serious points with this.

TrueSonicSpirit is always serious. But some of their points on the self-insert thing are just so laughable it can be it's own Sonic Boom comedy. 

[shdowhunt60]

6 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

TrueSonicSpirit is always serious. But some of their points on the self-insert thing are just so laughable it can be it's own Sonic Boom comedy. 

That.... That... You missed the point entirely. The whole point is that Sonic and friends don't even act like themselves any more. They're not their own people. They're what the audience wants them to be. They're the writers themselves who are too damned lazy to write the characters instead of themselves.

You can have a comedy operate off of internal logic. That's the ENTIRE flipping point of a character based comedy.

[Chris Knopps]

Being honest, they do bring up valid points/arguments and in general I think they really should get more respect than they do.

A lot of stuff does get thrown at them on a personal level, which is a bit too far in my opinion. Just let them have their opinions/demands and show the respect you would to any other person with their own thoughts vs pointing and laughing immaturely.

This gets none of us anywhere being so closed minded. (Yes, yes, not that I'm innocent of this myself, but still.)

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

That.... That... You missed the point entirely. The whole point isn't that Sonic and friends don't even act like themselves any more. They're not their own people. They're what the audience wants them to be.

Haha, what? You're seriously going to say that, when what all these arguments boil down to is, "they should be what I (a member of the audience) want them to be!"

[shdowhunt60]

Just now, Diogenes said:

Haha, what? You're seriously going to say that, when what all these arguments boil down to is, "they should be what I (a member of the audience) want them to be!"

You know what? Whatever. You're pretty obviously not going to listen to anything. You're just laugh at anything I say.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Just now, Diogenes said:

Haha, what? You're seriously going to say that, when what all these arguments boil down to is, "they should be what I (a member of the audience) want them to be!"

and that "they are no longer a character, they are forum people!!11" as if members on a forum aren't full and complete human beings. and it's a bit of a streach to say that Pontaff's character writing makes the character walking talking forums. I mean yes they do memes, but they are mostly written like real people who have more relatable experiences..... however still doing abstract things. 

1 minute ago, shdowhunt60 said:

You know what? Whatever. You're pretty obviously not going to listen to anything. You're just laugh at anything I say.

Seriously? No one is laughing at what our saying!!! We just want to know your opinion, that's all!

[Chris Knopps]

The issue is Sonic and co. are what the employees want them to be currently, not what the audience has been raised up to EXPECT them to be through the years.

That's what I get from it anyways. SEGA developed an expectation for the franchise, how its general locations should look/feel and how the characters should act/behave.

The sudden reboot of their behaviors and locations they traverse is what has so many thrown out of whack and uncomfortable. Really nowadays you don't know what the Sonic franchise even is anymore or who Sonic really is.

[Nepenthe]

The characters are not written like real people. They don't emote towards situations, defend themselves, or ask the obvious questions like real people do. Don't confuse characters joking around for empathy.