Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[dwitefry666]

Everything about the upcomnig Beginnings HC confuses and annoys me

The cover alone confuses and annoys me. It annoys me that he's just traced or copied (both?) Julie-Su and Lara-Su despite being an outspoken supporter of creator ownership, it annoys me he's used Falcon's likeness without asking despite being an outspoken supporter of creator ownership and most of all it annoys me that he hasn't actually properly aped the layout of Giant-Size X-Men 1! (I kid... mostly). And it confuses me how he thinks that no one will notice these things!

But beyond that it confuses and annoys me that he thinks it's ok to create and use Captain Ersatz stand-ins as balant as K'Nox but took people to court over Shade and not see the problem and it confuses and annoys me how he thinks he can legally sell reprints of artwork he doesn't own featuring characters he doesn't own - after fighting two lawsuits about character ownership and banging on for over a decade about how important it is that his ownership rights be respected. The hypocrisy alone is annoying and the fact that he doesn't see it confusing. 

But do you know what's most annoying? The fact (I think) that he'll very likely get away with it, and will use that as proof he's right instead of proof that he's just not worth bothering with. I can't see Spaz or Steve Butler (if Penders' hasn't paid Butler, I'm assuming he hasn't), or Anthony Mackie, bringing a case against him and I've a feeling he might be judged to small for Sega to bother with, the same way that most Etsy and artist's alley creators are. The only 'hope' (I have) for any kind of action being taken against him is that the previous lawsuits have annoyed Sega enough or that Penders is JUST high profile enough because of his previous work on the franchise but I think he'll get away with it.

[Lorekitten]

Counterpoint: I'm fairly certain he won't get away with this, because given the fandom's outrage over the whole thing, there ain't a snowball's chance in Hell of Sega not being made aware of what he's pulling, and I honestly can't see them just shrugging their shoulders and letting him pull this crap. Not after the lawsuits he's had and the permanent damage he's caused in basically destroying not one but two spin-off media series.

I'm just gonna sit back and watch the chaos. Don't bother making me popcorn; I've got gastritis and can't eat corn anyway.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Lorekitten

[King Scoopa Koopa]

Hopefully, it'll be that very hypocrisy on display that provides the rope with which he can be hung.

[Lorekitten]

2 minutes ago, King Scoopa Koopa said:

Hopefully, it'll be that very hypocrisy on display that provides the rope with which he can be hung.

He seems hell-bent on making that rope as long as possible, doesn't he? Despite all he's done, at this point I can't help but feel sorry for him. Whatever happens next will be his fault, but he's actively making it worse for himself by continuing in his hypocrisy.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

3 hours ago, dwitefry666 said:

Everything about the upcomnig Beginnings HC confuses and annoys me

The cover alone confuses and annoys me. It annoys me that he's just traced or copied (both?) Julie-Su and Lara-Su despite being an outspoken supporter of creator ownership, it annoys me he's used Falcon's likeness without asking despite being an outspoken supporter of creator ownership and most of all it annoys me that he hasn't actually properly aped the layout of Giant-Size X-Men 1! (I kid... mostly). And it confuses me how he thinks that no one will notice these things!

But beyond that it confuses and annoys me that he thinks it's ok to create and use Captain Ersatz stand-ins as balant as K'Nox but took people to court over Shade and not see the problem and it confuses and annoys me how he thinks he can legally sell reprints of artwork he doesn't own featuring characters he doesn't own - after fighting two lawsuits about character ownership and banging on for over a decade about how important it is that his ownership rights be respected. The hypocrisy alone is annoying and the fact that he doesn't see it confusing. 

But do you know what's most annoying? The fact (I think) that he'll very likely get away with it, and will use that as proof he's right instead of proof that he's just not worth bothering with. I can't see Spaz or Steve Butler (if Penders' hasn't paid Butler, I'm assuming he hasn't), or Anthony Mackie, bringing a case against him and I've a feeling he might be judged to small for Sega to bother with, the same way that most Etsy and artist's alley creators are. The only 'hope' (I have) for any kind of action being taken against him is that the previous lawsuits have annoyed Sega enough or that Penders is JUST high profile enough because of his previous work on the franchise but I think he'll get away with it.

The difference here is Penders would basically be trying to sell pirated comics, which is quite a bit different from just selling fan art or sketches. SEGA also don’t have a exclusive license with artists to draw and create art, they do have a exclusive license with IDW to publish Sonic comic books.

In short, both IDW and SEGA would have a vested interest in shutting down unlicensed reprints of pirated material featuring their licensed characters. Archie could even have a part of that fight considering it’s unlicensed material of their comic book (if I’m not mistaken). Ken is kicking a potential hornet’s nest.

Ken gets away with his hypocrisy because as I have said before, he has not legally done anything wrong yet. There’s nothing actually released as of yet that is him trying to sell materials, other than badges and art pieces. With this book however, he is finally making a play and trying to sell a official (well, unofficial, bootleg, and pirated, but likely official to him) book to compete with IDW Sonic and SEGA’s books. SEGA have a obvious vested interest in not having their characters appearing in unofficial, unlicensed books, especially when Penders is involved.

I don’t know if it’ll go as far as a lawsuit, but I would definitely see a Cease and Desist happening. Especially since this book breaches the agreement between Penders and SEGA way back when, specifically that anything, anything within The Lara-Su Chronicles cannot look like SEGA Sonic’s art style, which this book’s cover literally breaks, if you don’t include the contents within.

If Penders is ever going to get a reality check for his behaviour, it’s going to be very soon. I don’t see a world where SEGA lets this happen, no matter how much Penders believes ‘money solves all’.

[Leebo4]

40 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

The difference here is Penders would basically be trying to sell pirated comics, which is quite a bit different from just selling fan art or sketches. SEGA also don’t have a exclusive license with artists to draw and create art, they do have a exclusive license with IDW to publish Sonic comic books.

In short, both IDW and SEGA would have a vested interest in shutting down unlicensed reprints of pirated material featuring their licensed characters. Archie could even have a part of that fight considering it’s unlicensed material of their comic book (if I’m not mistaken). Ken is kicking a potential hornet’s nest.

Ken gets away with his hypocrisy because as I have said before, he has not legally done anything wrong yet. There’s nothing actually released as of yet that is him trying to sell materials, other than badges and art pieces. With this book however, he is finally making a play and trying to sell a official (well, unofficial, bootleg, and pirated, but likely official to him) book to compete with IDW Sonic and SEGA’s books. SEGA have a obvious vested interest in not having their characters appearing in unofficial, unlicensed books, especially when Penders is involved.

I don’t know if it’ll go as far as a lawsuit, but I would definitely see a Cease and Desist happening. Especially since this book breaches the agreement between Penders and SEGA way back when, specifically that anything, anything within The Lara-Su Chronicles cannot look like SEGA Sonic’s art style, which this book’s cover literally breaks, if you don’t include the contents within.

If Penders is ever going to get a reality check for his behaviour, it’s going to be very soon. I don’t see a world where SEGA lets this happen, no matter how much Penders believes ‘money solves all’.

I don’t think Archie would get involved as they don’t own the license and the stories would actually be more sega’s property than theirs. Like how when IDW reprinted the old marvel stuff, while they had to pay a licensing fee to reprint the story with spiderman in the original 4 issues and any and all stories with the character circuit breaker; they could otherwise reprint the rest of the book without Marvel’s opinion since the rest of those stories and issues are the property of Hasbro

[Ryannumber1gamer]

5 minutes ago, Leebo4 said:

I don’t think Archie would get involved as they don’t own the license and the stories would actually be more sega’s property than theirs. Like how when IDW reprinted the old marvel stuff, while they had to pay a licensing fee to reprint the story with spiderman in the original 4 issues and any and all stories with the character circuit breaker; they could otherwise reprint the rest of the book without Marvel’s opinion since the rest of those stories and issues are the property of Hasbro

I did say it was a possibility depending on if they had any remaining control over the comics since it was published under them. I would imagine SEGA owns all of it, but I couldn’t say for certain. 

Either way, SEGA and IDW would still have reason to take issue with it.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

7 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Especially since this book breaches the agreement between Penders and SEGA way back when, specifically that anything, anything within The Lara-Su Chronicles cannot look like SEGA Sonic’s art style, which this book’s cover literally breaks, if you don’t include the contents within.

Out of curiosity, where did this information come from? I thought the settlement and details thereof were kept quiet?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

2 minutes ago, King Scoopa Koopa said:

Out of curiosity, where did this information come from? I thought the settlement and details thereof were kept quiet?

I don't know exactly where it came from ( @horridus would probably be better to ask), but generally, it's been well known for years that one of the conditions from SEGA's side of the settlement was that The Lara-Su Chronicles is not allowed to have a artstyle that resembles the Sonic artstyle, which is why the style has changed multiple times to the creepy half-hearted attempt we have now to be half foot in Sonic and half foot in bizarre humanistic alien design.

As this book is being released as a book within The Lara-Su Chronicles series, that would presumably and technically breach that agreement, even if it's reprinted material.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Ryannumber1gamer

[Adamis]

Even if he sells that book, he would sell how many ? 10 ? 20 to his fans ?

Sega would lose more money by suing him and this might not be worth the effort.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

13 hours ago, Adamis said:

Even if he sells that book, he would sell how many ? 10 ? 20 to his fans ?

Sega would lose more money by suing him and this might not be worth the effort.

Suing him, yes. But a cease and desist would still be in the books. Again, exclusive license with IDW comics + not wanting to set a precedent for others to pursue unlicensed for profit works would give SEGA enough reason to not want to give Penders a inch here.

[Adamis]

Is it worth the effort though ?

At this rate, he's selling a book containing pages from a dead Sonic comic, featuring dead versions of SEGA's characters with even different names. There are what, 10 people interested in this fiasco ? That's basically a fancomic that is sold in conventions. Ken is an idiot, but he certainly knows how to use the details of copyright laws and bend them to his advantage, as he did with Archie.

I'd be more concerned about Butler's art. Ken thinks that storyboarding a piece of art means you own it, but I don't think it works that way...

[Leebo4]

1 hour ago, Adamis said:

Is it worth the effort though ?

At this rate, he's selling a book containing pages from a dead Sonic comic, featuring dead versions of SEGA's characters with even different names. There are what, 10 people interested in this fiasco ? That's basically a fancomic that is sold in conventions. Ken is an idiot, but he certainly knows how to use the details of copyright laws and bend them to his advantage, as he did with Archie.

I'd be more concerned about Butler's art. Ken thinks that storyboarding a piece of art means you own it, but I don't think it works that way...

If there ends up being sega copyrighted characters in the book then Sega would not want to set the precedent that someone can make money off their ip without their permission, commission arts are in thing but fully published comics based on copyright works?

 

plus I think that the lawsuit mainly went well for Ken because of the incompetent record keeping of Archie as well as the incompetence of the legal team that had to be fired mid trial

[Adamis]

It is a self-published comic book that, again, will sell maximum 10 issues. I've seen fancomics being sold over the years without SEGA even noticing. Ken will not be a threat to them.

[Leebo4]

23 minutes ago, Adamis said:

It is a self-published comic book that, again, will sell maximum 10 issues. I've seen fancomics being sold over the years without SEGA even noticing. Ken will not be a threat to them.

Were there being directly marketed though and trying to be more widely know and I doubt something like this would not get Sega’s attention.

[Promethean0416]

Welp, I'm back after a very busy holiday and it looks like I missed out on some events here and there.

Anyway, I looked around a bit, and came across this video tour which passed through the TL-SC booth and it looked like Penders had a bit of activity this time around. Good for him, I suppose.

Also, he responded further to the question regarding how he can get his product out with this (same site update from last page if a reference is needed):

Quote

Nah, not worried for a variety of reasons. That’s what my lawyers are for. I ge† where someone like you is coming from, but I don’t discuss business matters in a public forum. Let’s put it this way: the book is coming out and it’s currently available for pre-order elsewhere on this site.

Also of note, he quoted the wrong person, but it's there.

And finally, here's this huge whopper he just threw out:

Quote

I respond to everyone who posts a comment. Most people seem to be posting from my blog page as opposed to the message board is what I take away. To each their own, but I don’t ignore anyone.

Disclaimer: "Unless you are a troll and question my wisdom..."

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

On 11/29/2023 at 5:06 AM, Adamis said:

It is a self-published comic book that, again, will sell maximum 10 issues. I've seen fancomics being sold over the years without SEGA even noticing. Ken will not be a threat to them.

It's also a matter of precedent. Even if it doesn't exactly take off, Ken getting away with such a maneuver would suggest that this kind of stuff is a-okay to other potential folk.

That's the kind of headache no company wants, so they tend to make examples of the first few foolish enough to try.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I’m gonna give Ken a bit more optimism and say he’ll sell at most 50 issues.

That’s being generous on my end. That’s still not really enough to make a profit given the amount of work and time he’s put into it, quality aside.

Edited December 2, 2023 by CrownSlayer’s Shadow

[King Scoopa Koopa]

5 hours ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

It's also a matter of precedent. Even if it doesn't exactly take off, Ken getting away with such a manuever would suggest that this kind of stuff is a-okay to other potential folk.

That's the kind of headache no company wants, so they tend ti make examples of the first few foolish enough to try.

I'm willing to bet in most cases, SEGA would just turn a blind eye. Fandom is the lifeblood of the franchise, after all.

But in this highly-publicized case from a maverick ex-contractor and not a fan... well...

[Leebo4]

8 minutes ago, King Scoopa Koopa said:

I'm willing to bet in most cases, SEGA would just turn a blind eye. Fandom is the lifeblood of the franchise, after all.

But in this highly-publicized case from a maverick ex-contractor and not a fan... well...

Though if someone was trying to profit of a sonic fan game like the omen debacle; they would also be more willing to notice.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

9 minutes ago, King Scoopa Koopa said:

I'm willing to bet in most cases, SEGA would just turn a blind eye. Fandom is the lifeblood of the franchise, after all.

But in this highly-publicized case from a maverick ex-contractor and not a fan... well...

That's another good point. Ken's one they have a record with, so they may have legal eyes already trained on him.

[Lorekitten]

I can only think of one good reason to buy this book, and it's to do a clickbait YouTube video 'reviewing' it to attract viewers. Which I entirely expect will happen, and may or may not prove to Ken Penders that not all press is good press. This book's very existence is a time bomb and I'm heading for the bunker before it explodes.

[Promethean0416]

Well, here he goes again with advertising his old story compilation:

https://kenpenders.com/the-countdown-is-on-2/

And it looks like a new page of sorts with the man's view on how 25YL went down (apparently), omitting certain details, of course.

And finally, looks like a mid-January send-off to the printers vice a late December-early January, but understandable due to the holiday season...

Edited December 15, 2023 by Promethean0416

[Lorekitten]

25 minutes ago, Promethean0416 said:

And it looks like a new page of sorts with the man's view on how 25YL went down (apparently), omitting certain details, of course.

I'm honestly afraid to read that because I know he's not going to tell the whole truth.

[dwitefry666]

So I looked at the cover for the upcoming Beginning TPB again and it annoyed me again, so I need to do this, please indulge me:

The Beginning's cover is a take-off of Giant-Size X-Men 1, well it's actually a rip-off of Sonic the Hedgehog 131 which is a take-off of Giant Size X-Men 1:

This isn't uncommon in comic books. Except Penders gets it wrong and it bugs me: the point is to have the new characters bursting out from a picture of the old characters. The new hotness smashing through to the shock of the old boringness and not caring at all, it's supposed to be saying "look at this, it's new and different and cool and it’s HERE". Penders has it the wrong way 'round though: He has the old versions smashing through a picture of his new versions, his cover is unintentionally telling the reader that 'from the ashes of his NEW THING comes this OLD THING that's hotter and newer and cooler".

Spaz got this right on his cover of course:

And this almost certainly explains why Penders has done things the way 'round he's done them. Doing it this way allows him to copy/trace Julie-Su and Lara-Su. Weirdly he doesn't copy/trace Knuckles though, instead he draws a version which I assume is his Lara-Su Chronicles K'Nox version - which further makes a mess of the whole image as now we potentially have the new version leading the old versions as they break through from the new version. But this choice also changes the angle of the characters bursting through, further making the image fail as an homage to Giant Size X-Men 1. I have no idea why Penders did that, possibly because he sucks at drawing K'Nox face on? But if that was the case, why not just 'reference' Spaz' Knuckles and change the outfit? Also none of the characters Penders had drawn being smashed through looked shocked, they're not even all looking in the same direction.

I can't remember seeing a homage cover ballsed up this badly before, I'm sure someone has, someone at Solson or something, but Jesus, Ken, this one's a mess, mate.

Thank you for indulging me.

Edited December 18, 2023 by dwitefry666