Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Soon, it will have officially been a decade since this thread started (pretty sure it's already been a decade since Penders announced this blasted story).

I'm willing to bet by March, we still won't have even a single issue of this thing out still.

[Lorekitten]

28 minutes ago, dwitefry666 said:

I have no idea why Penders did that, possibly because he sucks at drawing K'Nox face on?

In my personal opinion, I'm not sure Ken Penders can draw properly from any angle.

[horridus]

On 12/18/2023 at 11:46 AM, dwitefry666 said:

This isn't uncommon in comic books. Except Penders gets it wrong and it bugs me: the point is to have the new characters bursting out from a picture of the old characters. The new hotness smashing through to the shock of the old boringness and not caring at all, it's supposed to be saying "look at this, it's new and different and cool and it’s HERE". Penders has it the wrong way 'round though: He has the old versions smashing through a picture of his new versions, his cover is unintentionally telling the reader that 'from the ashes of his NEW THING comes this OLD THING that's hotter and newer and cooler".

This is kind of a recurring thing with Penders and the various references/"homages" in his work- he understands that things are Cool or Impressive or Profound, but he really, really does not understand why that is, only that if he emulates/incorporates such things into his own work then HIS work will be Cool/Impressive/Profound. You just laid out why the original X-Men cover is as iconic as it is, why Spaz's version of it successfully emulates and homages the original so well. None of that would even occur to Penders, because Penders simply does not process or analyze art in a serious fashion, and you can see it in his work.

Case in point- this CLASSIC.

Setting aside how tasteless it was for him to do this and not credit Niemoller... this Poem, as presented, does not work within the wider context of the book. The Echidna never lived among other Mobians when the Coup happened. Robotnik's takeover did not proceed as described. This poem was stolen because it is famous as a cautionary about how Fascism operates, but it does not reflect the context of this setting, nor does it even fit the context of the story given that we don't actually witness anything resembling what's described here, with the Legion  trying to gain power by brainwashing (in extremely obvious fashion) Echidnapolis' current high councilor to gain support for their ROBOT.

... God it was such a stupid, stupid story.

The point of order? This and the other 'significant' quotes are there not because they fit, but because they are 'profound'. And thus that makes his work 'Profound'. It's an incredibly shallow way of looking at such things, but that's Penders in a nutshell for you. He is shallow. He is a shallow thinker. He consumes media in the most shallow way imaginable. And this would not be be bad because, hey, there's no law that says you need to Think Deep on everything you read or watch in life... but it becomes a problem when you're trying to come off as Deep, and in doing so only betray how little you actually UNDERSTAND about anything.

I could really go on, but this is already more than enough time spent illustrating the holes in Penders thinking and approach to writing, so, I'll summarize it once more- he can't recognize that HIS version of the cover Doesn't Work on a number of levels even getting past how unappealing it looks, and this is because he doesn't truly understand the 'why' of what he enjoys or what others enjoy on a very fundamental level.

[Lorekitten]

Honestly, I think a lot of Penders' popularity in the early days stemmed from the fact that he was using Sonic characters in his work and Sonic was a really big deal back then, so people saw what looked like 'Sonic, but deeper' and actually believed that it was Sonic but deeper. (It probably helped that Archie was building off the SatAM cast and plot elements, since SatAM actually succeeded in creating a compelling narrative and world branching off from the Sega games.) Now that Penders' readers from that time have grown up and can give a more critical eye to his works, they realize, 'oh yeah, this wasn't nearly as good as we thought it was before.'

I was fortunate enough to get into the Archie comics at precisely the point where they started actually getting good. (Specifically, the start of the Darkest Storm arc -- technically Ian Flynn did write a two-part series before that, but it wasn't anything special aside from giving us Scourge's origin story.) I don't know if I would've stuck with the comics if I'd started during the Ken Penders era.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Lorekitten

[MetalSkulkBane]

I am willing to give Ken some credit.
He did push for more serious stories. I will never know if it was solely his choice or editors or what but as far as I can tell we would be stuck in the Gag Era. I will go so far as to say that I enjoyed his first two Knuckles miniseries and one or two characters in the ongoing book (Remington).

As for his flaws (numerous, but let's focus on the main one) it's not that people were dumber in the 90s. I read his stuff in 2010s and all the mysteries and complex plotlines sounded like he had a plan. But instead of waiting years i finish his run in month or two and realized "oh god. There is no substance here. All plots either go to nowhere or end anticlimactically". That hindsight you only get with time.

Honestly, due to this I kinda developed a fear of any "mystery stories". How can I get hyped for anything, if the answers might be complete bull? (BTW, I never watched "Lost", but I heard things).

[Lorekitten]

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

As for his flaws (numerous, but let's focus on the main one) it's not that people were dumber in the 90s. I read his stuff in 2010s and all the mysteries and complex plotlines sounded like he had a plan. But instead of waiting years i finish his run in month or two and realized "oh god. There is no substance here. All plots either go to nowhere or end anticlimactically". That hindsight you only get with time.

I never meant to imply that people were dumber in the 90s (at least on average), I simply meant to say that all of us were younger back then and we now have the benefit of age and hindsight. But you do make a valid point in that reading the comics as they came out, it would've felt like they were leading up to something, but ultimately there was never any real tangible payoff.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Lorekitten

[King Scoopa Koopa]

10 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I read his stuff in 2010s and all the mysteries and complex plotlines sounded like he had a plan. But instead of waiting years i finish his run in month or two and realized "oh god. There is no substance here. All plots either go to nowhere or end anticlimactically". That hindsight you only get with time.

 

9 hours ago, Lorekitten said:

I never meant to imply that people were dumber in the 90s (at least on average), I simply meant to say that all of us were younger back then and we now have the benefit of age and hindsight. But you do make a valid point in that reading the comics as they came out, it would've felt like they were leading up to something, but ultimately there was never any real tangible payoff.

Yeah, so much this. It honestly felt like there was a plan, and it turned out the plan all along was just "make it to the next issue."

[MetalSkulkBane]

My "favorite" was Tobor. Sad background story, then he and Kragok (one of main villains) fall into portal, stay there for over a year, plop out and both just die instantly with no ceremony or care, with no main character even noticing. Neither Knuckles, Locke or Lien-Da ever wondered what happened to their relatives.

[Lorekitten]

8 hours ago, King Scoopa Koopa said:

It honestly felt like there was a plan, and it turned out the plan all along was just "make it to the next issue."

To borrow from an old joke, Ken Penders needs no introduction, but he could use a conclusion.

[Zaysho]

19 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

He did push for more serious stories. I will never know if it was solely his choice or editors or what but as far as I can tell we would be stuck in the Gag Era.

It was something of a natural progression because Sonic's tone shift mirrored the Archie TMNT Adventures book going into more of a serialized storyline with more serious storytelling (maybe to the point of being just as off-the-rails). I think some of that might have been editor influence, either Fulop or his successor, Gabrie, as well + wanting to match the tone of SatAM. Most of Penders's early writing was also gag focused (probably aided by Kanterovich), and while I think Penders deserves credit for what he did bring to the book's early years, especially with Knuckles, he wasn't the only one.

[horridus]

9 hours ago, King Scoopa Koopa said:

 

Yeah, so much this. It honestly felt like there was a plan, and it turned out the plan all along was just "make it to the next issue."

Very much so. If there was ever an ultimate conclusion in mind, his goal was to stretch out as much time between issues until finally reaching that goal, and I'm not all that confident he really did have much in the way of anything thought out. I think it kind of says something that a lot of his writing ultimately just seems dedicated to preserving the status-quo he had erected in the Knuckles comic, with this Brotherhood-Guardian conflict basically never getting anywhere. Even 25YL it seems was ultimately just going to be a return to a new iteration of that with Lara-Su against Lien-Da.

26 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

It was something of a natural progression because Sonic's tone shift mirrored the Archie TMNT Adventures book going into more of a serialized storyline with more serious storytelling (maybe to the point of being just as off-the-rails). I think some of that might have been editor influence, either Fulop or his successor, Gabrie, as well + wanting to match the tone of SatAM. Most of Penders's early writing was also gag focused (probably aided by Kanterovich), and while I think Penders deserves credit for what he did bring to the book's early years, especially with Knuckles, he wasn't the only one.

The Kanterovich factor can't be ignored here- while the books were more jokey when Kanterovich was his co-worker, Kanterovich also gave Penders a few things he really, truly desperately needed. Namely a better sense of direction as well as a sense of brevity. I re-read the stories where Kanterovich was co-writer, and while they weren't outstanding, they were none the less decent... and the very moment Kanterovich stopped being Penders co-writer, all of the things that would later come to define his work in the worst ways reared their head.

I suspect that the decision to go to a more serious form of storytelling was indeed of Penders' own choice... but it was less for the sake of the book and more for his own. Looking at a lot of Penders statements over the years, it becomes clear to me that he deeply resented working on a 'kiddie' book, and very badly wanted to work on something that was more 'legitimate' in his eyes. His turn towards the more 'serious' storytelling, and eventually his cack-brained attempts to be 'political' are a reflection of this, I feel.

Edited December 20, 2023 by horridus

[King Scoopa Koopa]

9 hours ago, Zaysho said:

Most of Penders's early writing was also gag focused (probably aided by Kanterovich), and while I think Penders deserves credit for what he did bring to the book's early years, especially with Knuckles, he wasn't the only one.

I just want to know what blood pact they signed that would see "Zoot Chute" carried from the gag era through most of the "dramatic" era.

[Phoenix]

It's still incredible to me that Evil Sonic made it through like that.

[Promethean0416]

An update of sorts on attempting to appeal to Lien-Da "fans" on what she may or may not be wearing depending on which book one gets as well as his current "plan" on distributing Mobius: 25-excuse me, TLSC: Beginnings:

Quote

One last note: If I do end up going to additional printings, the sure-fire way to tell which printing one has obtained is by checking to see which outfit Lien-Da is wearing on her DATA FILE page. Above is the version that will be seen in the original print run. The only way to see all the outfits she’s depicted in will be in her Data File page on the Lara-Su app.

https://kenpenders.com/so-how-can-anyone-get-a-copy-of-the-lara-su-chronicles-beginnings/

Edited December 22, 2023 by Promethean0416

[horridus]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:32 PM, Promethean0416 said:

An update of sorts on attempting to appeal to Lien-Da "fans" on what she may or may not be wearing depending on which book one gets as well as his current "plan" on distributing Mobius: 25-excuse me, TLSC: Beginnings:

https://kenpenders.com/so-how-can-anyone-get-a-copy-of-the-lara-su-chronicles-beginnings/

Huh. Guess it's a Christmas Miracle, because honestly... that outfit isn't all that bad, actually. Truth be told, its one of the more aesthetically pleasing bits of clothing he's designed so far.

I'm not gonna read him ramble on about the printing though. Either it happens or it doesn't, and I'm the fact he won't name any of the companies those publishing agents represent leaves me less than convinced about the status of all this.

[Promethean0416]

Okay, so there's some "new" art for his upcoming rerelease for M:25YLTLSC: Beginnings:

https://kenpenders.com/finally-after-all-these-years/

(At first, I thought with his heading, he finally released something of importance, but alas, no...)

Quote

If nothing else, the image above should resolve the issue of how much of THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES is connected to my previous stories seen the SONIC THE HEDGEHOG and KNUCKLES THE ECHIDNA series published by Archie Comics. And the answer is…

Very much so.

Welp, so much for:

Quote

"There will be no crossovers with SEGA"

From old update: https://kenpenders.com/coming-attractions/

Yeah, not wowed by that image claiming that it supposedly wraps all those stories and timelines into a neat little bow for all the readers to admire. Though I dunno, maybe an attempt at a concept cover for his supposed debut release of old bootleg Sonic stories?

[horridus]

On 12/27/2023 at 10:37 PM, Promethean0416 said:

Okay, so there's some "new" art for his upcoming rerelease for M:25YLTLSC: Beginnings:

https://kenpenders.com/finally-after-all-these-years/

(At first, I thought with his heading, he finally released something of importance, but alas, no...)

Welp, so much for:

From old update: https://kenpenders.com/coming-attractions/

Yeah, not wowed by that image claiming that it supposedly wraps all those stories and timelines into a neat little bow for all the readers to admire. Though I dunno, maybe an attempt at a concept cover for his supposed debut release of old bootleg Sonic stories?

Wow. That is shoddy. Even by Penders' standards, that is shoddy. It's almost impressive. And yet somehow, I am completely unsurprised by him so confidently expressing his belief that this 'answers everything', and I am even MORE unsurprised that even now he's doing all he can to cling at SEGA's coattails. The thing that pretty much everyone has said about this project since its announcement has been proven to be completely and utterly true.

Who coulda guessed?

[Phoenix]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be a jerk, but what does anyone know what that image is answering?

[Promethean0416]

On 12/29/2023 at 12:23 AM, Phoenix said:

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be a jerk, but what does anyone know what that image is answering?

Anyone's guess is as good as mine, it's likely his usual pandering for attention. 

Anyway, first TL-SC update for 2024:

https://kenpenders.com/happy-new-year-to-everyone/

So yeah, he seems to have redone a panel from 25YL for a "flashback" scene featuring Lara-Su and her father What the Fuckles-I mean, K'nox.

Also, he is apparently close to 100 pre-orders now, though I think this is another serving of pork pies, but I digress...

And finally, guess we will see in less than two weeks if he crosses the point of no return with getting 25YL "remastered" to the printers...

 

[Lorekitten]

1 hour ago, Promethean0416 said:

And finally, guess we will see in less than two weeks if he crosses the point of no return with getting 25YL "remastered" to the printers...

He is rapidly approaching the Legal Event Horizon and I'm just sitting here with what would be a bag of popcorn but I have gastritis so I can't have corn so I'm holding a bag of baby carrots instead.

[Promethean0416]

Well, he posted this in the previous topic:

Quote

People can expect bits and pieces they’ve never seen before the main event. Neither Archie or SEGA would ever allow or depict the crucial story moments that I’m working on.

Yeah, I'm sure they wouldn't take kindly to some of those "what if's" and outline plans he posted way back when on his forum and Xitter, but I digress...

But then, I just saw that he posted a new update, which I will not post the link to due to a reason I will put in a spoiler tag with his usual rambling and reasoning why he is choosing to include

Spoiler

a flashback of a breastfeeding scene.

If anyone wants to see the latest in the Uncanny Valley, just click the previous update link I provided and find the most recent one. Anyway, guess this is a part of the man wanting it to be a "not-kid-friendly-13-and-up-mature-audience project", maybe?

Edited January 4 by Promethean0416

[Lorekitten]

And with every new update this guy continues to dig his own legal grave. There is no way on this planet that Sega won't be coming after him for besmirching their brand like this.

[castell-neath]

This guy has always struck me as a bit of a stuck up, arrogant, arsehole. I hope he just finally goes away and crawls back under the rock he spawaned under

[Danj86]

2 hours ago, Promethean0416 said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

a flashback of a breastfeeding scene.

If anyone wants to see the latest in the Uncanny Valley, just click the previous update link I provided and find the most recent one. Anyway, guess this is a part of the man wanting it to be a "not-kid-friendly-13-and-up-mature-audience project", maybe?

Wait! HOLD IT!!

I rarely partake in this topic since I just don't care about the guy. (Which is probably why Sega also never acknowledges him.) But I assume his fan characters are still echidna's right?

Because the thing hidden in that spoiler tag...can't actually be performed by an echidna. Now I could be generous and say that they do something similar but they lack something we humans often associate with that particular act.

Spoiler

No dancing around the subject in this spoiler. Echidna are monotremes which means they are of a small number of mammals that give birth through laying eggs. Now, according to my research, they do perform an act that is similar to breast feeding but they don't actually have nipples.

I respect IP holders who will incorporate real life elements from the things they are based on. It adds an educational layer that is hidden under the surface. (I would never have known of a creature called an echidna if Knuckles did not exist.) As somebody that takes most things way too literally, I might actually get triggered if Penders incorporates a mammal trait into a monotreme. Not that that matters in the long run, any annoyance I was feeling had already disappeared before I finished writing this post. lol

[Lorekitten]

Okay, a few points here.

Spoiler

One: Ken Penders has openly stated that this reboot will have the 'echidnas' as alien creatures who just happen to have an unpronounceable name that is linguistically similar to echidna. As if that's not entirely transparent, but I digress.

Two: if we go back to the Archie Sonic canon, it's indicated that the Mobians were the result of the Xorda's gene bombs breaking down genetics and new life springing forth, including many human-animal hybrids that became the Mobians. Thus, Knuckles and his kin are not 'just' echindas; they're part human, part echidna, possibly with bits and pieces of who knows what else mixed in.

Three: the Archie Sonic series has had different Mobian species actively interbreeding, including an echidna and a hedgehog (Mari-An and Rob) and later on in Ian Flynn's run, an echidna and a crocodile (Lara-Su and Argyle are heavily implied to be the future Edmund's parents). How is this possible? Biologically speaking, it makes no freaking sense, but this isn't uncommon in furry fantasy.

And four: female echidnas, and most likely some other non-mammalian female Mobians, have been drawn with breasts before.

So basically, hecc biology, this is furry town.