Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Yeah that is absolute bullshit.

Clearly what Justin was suggesting here was bringing Knuckles’ DYNAMIC back to Issue #13. Which was Knuckles doing solo adventures away from Penders’ gigantic lore dump that entrapped Knuckles and the Chaotix within Echidnapolis to only do stories relating to Penders’ lore and nothing more.

Like, I get you could try to argue I’m wrong and Penders knows better because he was actually there. But like, we HAVE the evidence that proves him wrong. We have the exact context of what was being suggested here because it did happen. Because as @horridussaid, Bollers did exactly that with a compromise.

Like, clearly the context here was Knuckles being revived from his death in #125, and the dynamic that would spiral from that. Which was exactly what Justin asked, back to Issue 13 where Knuckles was a lone wolf who could pursue adventures as he pleased and actually be involved in the events of the main book, rather than being trapped with only Echnida politics and whatever nonsense Penders’ lore was stuck in. Considering Bollers achieved reverting Knuckles’ dynamic back to the book’s earlier status quo while keeping the story stuff and Julie-Su, it clearly is not the big retcon that Penders is trying to pass off here.

Add in the absolute tantrum Penders threw when Bollers went back to the Echidna lore and tried to give it a big shakeup (successfully at that) via Return to Angel Island, this is absolutely Penders just throwing his toys out of his pram when the editor stepped up to do their job. Absolutely laughable considering that Justin let him get away with so much for so long, and especially hypocritical when you remember Penders mainly came back when he was allowed to write his “magnum opus” with Mobius 25 Years Later, and how he’d throw the exact same tantrum and rage quit AGAIN when another editor tried to do their job and call out the garbage quality of M25YL, and tried to fix it.

[Leebo4]

2 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Yeah that is absolute bullshit.

Clearly what Justin was suggesting here was bringing Knuckles’ DYNAMIC back to Issue #13. Which was Knuckles doing solo adventures away from Penders’ gigantic lore dump that entrapped Knuckles and the Chaotix within Echidnapolis to only do stories relating to Penders’ lore and nothing more.

Like, I get you could try to argue I’m wrong and Penders knows better because he was actually there. But like, we HAVE the evidence that proves him wrong. We have the exact context of what was being suggested here because it did happen. Because as @horridussaid, Bollers did exactly that with a compromise.

Like, clearly the context here was Knuckles being revived from his death in #125, and the dynamic that would spiral from that. Which was exactly what Justin asked, back to Issue 13 where Knuckles was a lone wolf who could pursue adventures as he pleased and actually be involved in the events of the main book, rather than being trapped with only Echnida politics and whatever nonsense Penders’ lore was stuck in. Considering Bollers achieved reverting Knuckles’ dynamic back to the book’s earlier status quo while keeping the story stuff and Julie-Su, it clearly is not the big retcon that Penders is trying to pass off here.

Add in the absolute tantrum Penders threw when Bollers went back to the Echidna lore and tried to give it a big shakeup (successfully at that) via Return to Angel Island, this is absolutely Penders just throwing his toys out of his pram when the editor stepped up to do their job. Absolutely laughable considering that Justin let him get away with so much for so long, and especially hypocritical when you remember Penders mainly came back when he was allowed to write his “magnum opus” with Mobius 25 Years Later, and how he’d throw the exact same tantrum and rage quit AGAIN when another editor tried to do their job and call out the garbage quality of M25YL, and tried to fix it.

Editor tried to fix 25 years later? Don’t think I have heard of that part of this whole story of Ken’s work in the comics; do you have details ir is there an article or video that would explain that please?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just now, Leebo4 said:

Editor tried to fix 25 years later? Don’t think I have heard of that part of this whole story of Ken’s work in the comics; do you have details ir is there an article or video that would explain that please?

There's not much to tell. Basically, Ken originally wanted to continue M25YL with stories about Sonic getting sent into the past and being a ghost who can't do anything, which would ultimately result in Nicole being from the future, and as is typical with this story, nothing much of value would happen.

However, after the reception to Mobius 25 Years Later, and after the new editor was brought onto the series, one of the major changes they wanted was that more action happens, the story is resolved, and in particular, a King Shadow could be introduced in order to add conflict to the story and try to make it interesting. All things that Ken took issue with, and walked away. Although nowadays, he tries to claim it's because SEGA were a pain to work with.

Anyways, you can already see the end result with Ian's two conclusion issues to Mobius 25 Years Later, and Mobius 30 Years Later, because both of those stories took on the criticisms the editor provided. 

[Zaysho]

If I had to guess, Gabrie's suggestion is similar to the one Pellerito eventually made about bringing the Sega characters back to the forefront, including what Ryan mentions about 25YL. Given how late this appears to be (into #125) and Pellerito began as an assistant editor not that long after (#131) before Gabrie eventually left, I could see the intent was more about simplification rather than total elimination. I think if that was the case, they'd have considered a full reboot much earlier as opposed to the streamlining you get in the late Bollers run or Flynn's first two years.

I get Penders was so married to his concept and the Sonic book was a major outlet for him so he might be reluctant toward anything that diminished that, but in general I think he's an unreliable narrator and it's not news he disliked editors "inserting themselves into the creative process" and had very little interest in using anything he didn't make himself.

[Promethean0416]

Well, he's broken his silence and posted another update, and now he's comparing The Beatles "Now and Then" song and its creation to his "work":

https://kenpenders.com/now-and-then/

Still can't stop making it about himself despite that he is miles behind the success of that band and then some...

Also, this quote has me scratching my head:

Quote

In reading the many comments of what people thought of the song, the reasons for its release, and so on, reminded me an awful lot of the comments I experienced over the years in taking my stories and characters I wrote for the SONIC THE HEDGEHOG and KNUCKLES THE ECHIDNA series as the basis for my LARA-SU CHRONICLES. How dare I continue my stories without Sonic and Knuckles stories without the 2 main characters when what I wrote were clearly Sonic and Knuckles stories.

My answer to these critics is that my stories weren’t just Sonic and Knuckles stories, they were stories, period. There was a whole world of characters and events in which these two characters played a part, but the other characters were just as viable on their own without Sonic and Knuckles. And just like NOW AND THEN isn’t meant to compete with the entire Beatles catalog, THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES isn’t the last word on Sonic and Knuckles stories, or contradicts what came before.

Yeah, tell that to Sega, who required those 2 characters to sell the brand in comic form, the fact that the story in question has been dead for 15-20+ years now, and the fact that they are apparently still needed for the rerelease of Mobius: 25YLTLSC: Beginnings, but I digress...

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Promethean0416

[horridus]

3 hours ago, Promethean0416 said:

Well, he's broken his silence and posted another update, and now he's comparing The Beatles "Now and Then" song and its creation to his "work":

https://kenpenders.com/now-and-then/

Still can't stop making it about himself despite that he is miles behind the success of that band and then some...

Also, this quote has me scratching my head:

Yeah, tell that to Sega, who required those 2 characters to sell the brand in comic form, the fact that the story in question has been dead for 15-20+ years now, and the fact that they are apparently still needed for the rerelease of Mobius: 25YLTLSC: Beginnings, but I digress...

 

Man, that is eerie- the conversation about him starts up again and focuses on what a whiny, self-serving crybaby he is, and what do you know, he decides to remind us of that mere moments afterwards!

Heh, in all seriousness though, Penders? It just doesn't work. On any level. The Beatles are living legends. You're a one and done no longer remembered even for the 'one' outside of a video game fanbase that near universally hates you. Those characters were all designed as Sonic characters, to interact with Sonic and his world. Take them away from Sonic? And there's not a whole lot to draw people in. This isn't news, mind you, but evidently it is to Kenny boy.

And that's without getting into the fact that the story he wants to tell just... sucks.

 

[King Scoopa Koopa]

11 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Yeah that is absolute bullshit.

Clearly what Justin was suggesting here was bringing Knuckles’ DYNAMIC back to Issue #13. Which was Knuckles doing solo adventures away from Penders’ gigantic lore dump that entrapped Knuckles and the Chaotix within Echidnapolis to only do stories relating to Penders’ lore and nothing more.

Like, I get you could try to argue I’m wrong and Penders knows better because he was actually there. But like, we HAVE the evidence that proves him wrong. We have the exact context of what was being suggested here because it did happen. Because as @horridussaid, Bollers did exactly that with a compromise.

Like, clearly the context here was Knuckles being revived from his death in #125, and the dynamic that would spiral from that. Which was exactly what Justin asked, back to Issue 13 where Knuckles was a lone wolf who could pursue adventures as he pleased and actually be involved in the events of the main book, rather than being trapped with only Echnida politics and whatever nonsense Penders’ lore was stuck in. Considering Bollers achieved reverting Knuckles’ dynamic back to the book’s earlier status quo while keeping the story stuff and Julie-Su, it clearly is not the big retcon that Penders is trying to pass off here.

Add in the absolute tantrum Penders threw when Bollers went back to the Echidna lore and tried to give it a big shakeup (successfully at that) via Return to Angel Island, this is absolutely Penders just throwing his toys out of his pram when the editor stepped up to do their job. Absolutely laughable considering that Justin let him get away with so much for so long, and especially hypocritical when you remember Penders mainly came back when he was allowed to write his “magnum opus” with Mobius 25 Years Later, and how he’d throw the exact same tantrum and rage quit AGAIN when another editor tried to do their job and call out the garbage quality of M25YL, and tried to fix it.

That makes tons more sense than what he was saying, so thanks for breaking that part down. Based on what he said, I was almost ready to agree with him for once.

But, that's how he operates, isn't it? If he ain't lying, he ain't speaking.

@Promethean0416Thanks for the summary, btw!

Edited November 12, 2023 by King Scoopa Koopa

[Leebo4]

13 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

There's not much to tell. Basically, Ken originally wanted to continue M25YL with stories about Sonic getting sent into the past and being a ghost who can't do anything, which would ultimately result in Nicole being from the future, and as is typical with this story, nothing much of value would happen.

However, after the reception to Mobius 25 Years Later, and after the new editor was brought onto the series, one of the major changes they wanted was that more action happens, the story is resolved, and in particular, a King Shadow could be introduced in order to add conflict to the story and try to make it interesting. All things that Ken took issue with, and walked away. Although nowadays, he tries to claim it's because SEGA were a pain to work with.

Anyways, you can already see the end result with Ian's two conclusion issues to Mobius 25 Years Later, and Mobius 30 Years Later, because both of those stories took on the criticisms the editor provided. 

Thanks very much.

[Promethean0416]

Welp, a reminder of the upcoming FANEXPO event Penders will be attending:

https://kenpenders.com/fan-expo-san-francisco-is-coming-fast/

Looks like a (possibly) new advertising poster and he seems to have dug out a couple of Sonic SatAM shirts in storage featuring those traced Spaz buildings there. Also, guess he doesn't look like he's going to sell his "survive!" limited edition shirts from before despite looking like he still has some in stock, but I digress...

Edited November 16, 2023 by Promethean0416

[Promethean0416]

Bit of an an addendum from the most recent update when someone questioned him on the use of certain characters and his response:

Quote

The short simple answer is I can do this, but I can’t go into details. As long as I’m willing to pay SEGA the usual licensing fee, there’s not a problem. Also, I’m not exploiting Sonic and/or Knuckles in any promotion of the project. Fans may think that’s Knuckles on the cover, but in actuality it’s not, in terms of this project. I own my stories and characters outright.

Funnily enough, on one of his previous posts he talked about not crossing over with Sega, but yeah, more proof he needs that certain connection for his "original characters do not steal" to hold weight in those aged stories...

[Lorekitten]

I mean, by this point we all know he's not a reliable source of information, and quite frankly I fully expect that at the rate he's going either his pet project will fizzle out completely, or he'll get sued over it. Probably the latter. More than once.

And given how convinced he was that Shade and Julie-Su were the same character, he is in absolutely no position to 'replace' Sega's characters in his own work and then claim 'original character do not steal.'

Honestly I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but every time I read something new about Ken Penders, the more I feel sorry for him because whatever he thinks the result of his continually narcissistic actions will be is most certainly not what's actually going to happen. It's like he's wandering straight onto the freeway and expecting the oncoming cars to just drive around him.

(Also on the subject of a Lien-Da image shared a while back -- I did not need to know that the woman has cybernetic... implants. That is not a mental image I want to carry with me the rest of my life.)

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 hour ago, Promethean0416 said:

Bit of an an addendum from the most recent update when someone questioned him on the use of certain characters and his response:

Funnily enough, on one of his previous posts he talked about not crossing over with Sega, but yeah, more proof he needs that certain connection for his "original characters do not steal" to hold weight in those aged stories...

Holy shit, that is spectacularly insane. This man really believes you can do whatever you want with these characters and then send a check to SEGA after the fact.

Does he legitimately not realise a licensee needs to agree to license use??

[Lorekitten]

13 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Does he legitimately not realise a licensee needs to agree to license use??

Look, I'll be honest, from what I've seen of his reasoning capacities, it feels very much like he only believes what he wants to believe, regardless of whether or not it aligns with the facts.

Like I've said: if his project lasts long enough, it'll net him at least one big fat lawsuit and probably more than that. In fact, if I were a gambler I would put money on him spending more on handing lawsuits connected to his project than he ever makes from said project.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

Longtime writer (and other things) of comics, cartoons, and more, Mark Evanier, posted this on his blog today.

https://www.newsfromme.com/2023/11/17/from-the-e-mailbag-408/

Without naming names, I was just reminded of someone while reading it, and I think that as widespread as this saying might be in the biz, there may be some corners it never quite reached.

[Lorekitten]

14 minutes ago, King Scoopa Koopa said:

Longtime writer (and other things) of comics, cartoons, and more, Mark Evanier, posted this on his blog today.

https://www.newsfromme.com/2023/11/17/from-the-e-mailbag-408/

Without naming names, I was just reminded of someone while reading it, and I think that as widespread as this saying might be in the biz, there may be some corners it never quite reached.

I would not trust Ken Penders to 'babysit' any intellectual property of mine. And I'm sure someone or another has told him this, but if they have, either he does not believe it or he simply does not care. Possibly both.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Surprised no one mentioned it, but the first volume of The Lara-Su Chronicles is actually officially up for pre order:

https://thankskenpenders.tumblr.com/post/734839843249700864/the-first-volume-of-the-lara-su-chronicles-is

(I’ll just post this and save anyone visiting Ken’s site).

Granted, by first volume, we don’t mean like the tangible first volume of the series, but rather the big book of unlicensed comics that he intends to sell. So really, even though it seems a tangible book is finally coming, it’s a tangible book made mostly up of preexisting material that Ken is intending to sell without permission, so I’d hardly say this is anything praiseworthy.

What’s going to be interesting is to see how things go from here. Because for a lot of Ken’s nonsense, he never actually tried to sell any book infringing on the Sonic license. He never really had any reason to be cease and desisted because right now, he was just a glorified fan artist.

But now he’s trying to sell a actual book, using Sonic characters, for profit. More over, he’s selling and using unlicensed comics that are tied up in multiple rights issues between himself, the artists, SEGA, and Archie. There’s a big reason why IDW hasn’t been able to reprint Archie Sonic stuff like they could for the likes of Disney and TMNT, and it’s likely those rights issues, along with if SEGA want that material reprinted or not.

I do not believe for a single second that Penders has any right to sell these comics like this, irregardless if he owns the stories or not because that’s only part of the rights. He doesn’t have the rights to the Sonic cast, to our knowledge (could be wrong), he hasn’t asked permission to reprint the art within it, and we don’t know where/how Archie falls into things. Not to mention other characters he doesn’t own like Mina Mongoose, unless he intends to edit the mentions and appearances of her out.

All that to say that there’s a very real chance this is the point, to my knowledge at least, unless I’m mistaken - where things get real for Penders, and definitely not in the way he intends. Given that SEGA already has a (likely exclusive) licensing deal with IDW for Sonic comics, there’s very real consequences for having unofficial Sonic books out in the wild that contains unlicensed appearances of these characters that represent an era of Sonic that SEGA have yet to want to acknowledge. 

Maybe by some miracle, Ken skirts by unnoticed and he gets away with it. But given how in tune the social media team tends to be with the fandom, I heavily doubt that, and that’s assuming Ken doesn’t very stupidly out himself by trying to send a check to SEGA for licensing fees, seemingly not knowing or understanding how licensing is meant to work. Either way, if SEGA is ever going to end up intervening with this series, it seems like within the next few months is the most likely time.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Ryannumber1gamer

[Lorekitten]

I have said this before and I shall say it again: if I were a gambler, I would bet money that Penders loses more money on legal fees and lawsuits related to his 'project' than he gains from selling...

WHATEVER THE FRICK THIS IS.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

Assuming this makes it to print as a real, tangible item...

Is there going to be any real value to this, as a collector? I'm on the fence.

On the one hand, I imagine this will become really hard to find in just a short time. On the other, this is basically as bootleg as taking a bunch of scans and binding them together.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

6 minutes ago, King Scoopa Koopa said:

Assuming this makes it to print as a real, tangible item...

Is there going to be any real value to this, as a collector? I'm on the fence.

On the one hand, I imagine this will become really hard to find in just a short time. On the other, this is basically as bootleg as taking a bunch of scans and binding them together.

I doubt it, given it would be basically be a bootleg. If you're a Archie Sonic diehard collector who wants a physical reprint of M25YL in a complete form (assuming the older Super Special Magazine doesn't scratch that itch for you), then I guess it could have personal value. But it's hard to see this having as much more value as say - someone who just prints out a bunch of scans from the internet and staples them into a book for sale on eBay. Could be wrong of course, as I know nothing about comic valuing, but even still, the pricing tends to go from the fact these comics are original prints that are now out of print and hard to get in decent quality. 

Worth noting as well that even that particular itch wouldn't be scratched because Penders' ego wouldn't let him reprint the two follow-up issues that Ian did, or Mobius 30 Years Later. 

Half of the value comes from the fact that it's a authentic copy of the material, so therefore I don't see this holding up to much.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Ryannumber1gamer

[babsiwuff]

Huh.  Now that he doesn't have Twitter anymore, he doesn't post art updates anymore does he?  I mean, he gave up on that great big group pic, didn't he?

[horridus]

1 hour ago, babsiwuff said:

Huh.  Now that he doesn't have Twitter anymore, he doesn't post art updates anymore does he?  I mean, he gave up on that great big group pic, didn't he?

He's joined up with Instagram, so any updates would be posted there. Trouble is in order to properly access it, would mean joining up with Instagram... and frankly, he's REALLY not worth that kind of effort.

[Lorekitten]

I don't think Instagram itself is worth the effort, let alone for Ken Penders. I am very much not a social media woman.

Still, I wonder how long he'll stay on Instagram before giving up on that too.

[Rabid-Coot]

13 hours ago, horridus said:

He's joined up with Instagram, so any updates would be posted there. Trouble is in order to properly access it, would mean joining up with Instagram... and frankly, he's REALLY not worth that kind of effort.

There is a partial way around it, if you can get into any post somehow you can click around what looks to be the most recent 9 from it.

[The Tenth Doctor]

Any idea what his handle is on Instagram? Its not Threads or whatever its called right, I don't do that bit.

[babsiwuff]

I have IG and I looked him up:  "Therealkenpenders".  Honestly, he barely updates it and doesn't have that many followers.