Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[horridus]

(I know he has lots of female characters, but for the love of god, could he have phrased that any worse?)

 

And most if not all of them could be cardboard for how much he actually characterizes and has them do. Most if not all major developments for his female characters came from other writers, AND he tried to permanently kill off one major female character (Sally), ignored another save to reveal her relation to one of his MALE characters (Amy), and then roboticized another to show that 'even a female could make the ultimate sacrifice for her loved ones' (Lupe). 

 

This guy can talk a good game, but at the end of the day he is supremely disinterested in actually writing for a female character in any significant way. 

[Osmium]

Speaking of him trying to kill off Sally, wasn't it because the Sally miniseries didn't sell well? 

 

I find it kind of scary that the first thing that comes to Penders' mind if a character is not very popular is KILL THEM OFF! You know, instead of trying to write them better to be more likable?

 

And if were talking about Sally, I remember Penders' Sally being about as interesting as a rock. The Sally miniseries in particular showed her as being some serious no nonsense flawless leader, and nothing else. 

[horridus]

Speaking of him trying to kill off Sally, wasn't it because the Sally miniseries didn't sell well? 

 

I find it kind of scary that the first thing that comes to Penders' mind if a character is not very popular is KILL THEM OFF! You know, instead of trying to write them better to be more likable?

 

And if were talking about Sally, I remember Penders' Sally being about as interesting as a rock. The Sally miniseries in particular showed her as being some serious no nonsense flawless leader, and nothing else. 

 

He has given several contradictory statements regarding why Sally had to die. The lack of sales for the miniseries was one excuse he gave (while conspicuously not suggesting that any of HIS characters introduced and utilized in said series should die too, or that Knuckles' cancellation should have meant the end of the storylines due to a lack of a interest). Another was that he felt her presence was 'redundant' with King Acorn around (and yet he introduced her mother and brother, who he evidently intended to take her place). Yet ANOTHER was that he felt Sally 'cramped Sonic's style', which OBVIOUSLY had nooothing to do with his failings as a writer. And finally, his most RECENT excuse was that, and I shit you not, it did not make sense for her to be out in the field with Sonic but if he kept her behind it would offend the female readership, so the obvious solution was to kill her off. 

 

He even tried to have it that she would be revealed as dead after Endgame and that the Sally encountered was in fact a robot replica. THis guy was insanely dead set on having her killed, and the only consistency in his explanations for why is that her death was 'neccessary'. 

[Zaysho]

He has given several contradictory statements regarding why Sally had to die. The lack of sales for the miniseries was one excuse he gave (while conspicuously not suggesting that any of HIS characters introduced and utilized in said series should die too, or that Knuckles' cancellation should have meant the end of the storylines due to a lack of a interest). Another was that he felt her presence was 'redundant' with King Acorn around (and yet he introduced her mother and brother, who he evidently intended to take her place). Yet ANOTHER was that he felt Sally 'cramped Sonic's style', which OBVIOUSLY had nooothing to do with his failings as a writer. And finally, his most RECENT excuse was that, and I shit you not, it did not make sense for her to be out in the field with Sonic but if he kept her behind it would offend the female readership, so the obvious solution was to kill her off. 

 

He even tried to have it that she would be revealed as dead after Endgame and that the Sally encountered was in fact a robot replica. THis guy was insanely dead set on having her killed, and the only consistency in his explanations for why is that her death was 'neccessary'. 

[Osmium]

He has given several contradictory statements regarding why Sally had to die. The lack of sales for the miniseries was one excuse he gave (while conspicuously not suggesting that any of HIS characters introduced and utilized in said series should die too, or that Knuckles' cancellation should have meant the end of the storylines due to a lack of a interest). Another was that he felt her presence was 'redundant' with King Acorn around (and yet he introduced her mother and brother, who he evidently intended to take her place). Yet ANOTHER was that he felt Sally 'cramped Sonic's style', which OBVIOUSLY had nooothing to do with his failings as a writer. And finally, his most RECENT excuse was that, and I shit you not, it did not make sense for her to be out in the field with Sonic but if he kept her behind it would offend the female readership, so the obvious solution was to kill her off. 

 

He even tried to have it that she would be revealed as dead after Endgame and that the Sally encountered was in fact a robot replica. THis guy was insanely dead set on having her killed, and the only consistency in his explanations for why is that her death was 'neccessary'. 

[horridus]

Whoa wait what. So he felt keeping her around was tokenism or something?

 

For fuck's sake Penders, you couldn't even try to write her to be interesting? Did the Sally mini-series' low sales really put him off the character that much? Cripes, how the hell is a professional writer this fucking lazy and uncreative. Seriously, I do not get his damage with her.

 

Out of curiosity, this is a new one for me. Was that on his forum?

[Osmium]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70FiHUMz9U4. I don't recall the exact point where it came out, and I despise the sound of the man's voice enough that I don't wanna check, but it's there. 

[Zaysho]

What, you don't remember? That recorded interview he gave with several Stadium members? We were asked to submit questions? I remembered that part specifically because it was so goddamn *insane* that I could never forget it. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70FiHUMz9U4. I don't recall the exact point where it came out, and I despise the sound of the man's voice enough that I don't wanna check, but it's there.

[Osmium]

Now I know what Ken sounds like. A big fucking dork.

 

Also, everyone else sounds really bored XD. 

[horridus]

Oooh right. I haven't listened to it since it first dropped. The only thing that stood out to me was about Gabrie keeping Penders from killing her off and I was kind of in shock he actually did his job. And some misguided belief that his contributions were what was keeping the sales up and that's why he did back-ups for the book post "End Game" and somehow ignoring that he was the sole writer for Knuckles and that tanked hard.

[Lara-Sunders]

Now I know what Ken sounds like. A big fucking dork.

 

Also, everyone else sounds really bored XD. 

[Zaysho]

Yeah, that's the thing about Penders. He actually seems nice and even amiable enough from all the interviews I've listened to with him (there's only a few that I know of).

 

What he says in another story altogether though...

[biznizz]

In the end, it's friggin' hilarious just how much Pen really hated Sally when, to the best of my knowledge, there was one page in one of the books where most of the staff at the time drew their interpretations of Sonic, yet Pen was the ONLY one who drew someone else, and that was Sally.

 

It's also worth noting:

 

Tails Mini- Starring Tails and the Downunda and Forty Fathoms Freedom Fighters; introucing Athair. By Gallagher

Knuckles Mini 1- Starring Knuckles and Archemedes the Fire Ant vs Enerjak. Also starring the Chaotix and introducing Locke. By Pen

Knuckles Mini 2- Starring Knuckles and the Chaotix vs the Dark Legion. Introducing Julie-Su; became the ongoing. By Pen

Sonic Mini- Starring Sonic the Hedgehog and the Freedom Fighters vs Dr. Robotnik. Lead to the ongoing. By Gallagher

 

Death Egg Saga- Starring Sonic, Tails & Knuckles as they try to get rings to save King Max. Other than nearly ramming Angel Island into the ocean, the Death Egg didn't really do much but provide a fighting location for Silver Sonic. By Gallagher

Sally Mini- Starring Geoffrey St. John and the Substitute Freedom Fighters, with a Robo-Sally. Sally Acorn cameos in issues 1 & 3. By Pen.

 

Those last two dropped the ball on what they were supposed to be about, but at least Gallagher tried harder even if his product was inferior to StC's Death Egg stories.

 

Also, wow. I completely forgot that Gallagher wrote the original 4 issues of the mini-series which lead to Sonic's ongoing. That just makes Pen even more of a hypocrite when it comes to Gallagher.

 

Gallagher was the first writer for the book, which Pen says the only ones who matter in comics were the original creative team. Yet Pen says Gallagher was less important than him.

 

Gallagher pursued other jobs and even left temporarily to work on Guardians of the Galaxy but came back. Pen tries to do so with Lost Ones, fails, and even tho he didn't 'leave', he's still got more commitment to Sonic than Gallagher did.

Sorry for the doublepost, but found it. The "Pro-Art" was from issue 25. For the record, Mike Kanterovich drew a Robotnik, but that's understandable since he was, ya know, Sonic's archnemesis from the actual games. And Mike K. never tried to kill off Robotnik (credits for Director's Cut of 50 doesn't list him, anyways).

 

 

[Osmium]

Holy shit, some of those designs are freaky. 

[Verb & Noun]

It's funny that the inker Rich Koslowski drew such a fluid, emotive picture in comparison to Pendejo's, considering how much Penders slags off inkers.

[Osmium]

It's funny that the inker Rich Koslowski drew such a fluid, emotive picture in comparison to Pendejo's, considering how much Penders slags off inkers.

[biznizz]

Ah, I forgot that Pen basically echoed the Chasing Amy thing about inkers. That they aren't important enough to deserve credit like writers & pencilers [since they're basically tracers]*, right?

 

*My take from his words.

[horridus]

Ah, I forgot that Pen basically echoed the Chasing Amy thing about inkers. That they aren't important enough to deserve credit like writers & pencilers [since they're basically tracers]*, right?

 

*My take from his words.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Something along the lines of how they aren't as 'essential' to the creation process as writers or pencillers or something along those lines. 

 

I wonder how he reconciles this, given that the majority of his Non-Archie work was as an inker, colorist and letterist. 

[Zaysho]

Ah, I forgot that Pen basically echoed the Chasing Amy thing about inkers. That they aren't important enough to deserve credit like writers & pencilers [since they're basically tracers]*, right?

 

*My take from his words.

 

Pen's words were, and I am paraphrasing at the moment, that inkers just finish the artwork. They don't "create something from nothing" the way a writer, penciler, or even a layout artist would.

 

Even if I could read that in his friendliest voice, I would probably react just like Jason Lee's character did (guess who likes inking)...

 

EDIT: Exact words.

 

 

While Art Mawhinney is credited with finished ink art, I would not consider him a creator, nor would I consider any inker a creator, including myself on any listed work. Only the writer(s) and pencil artist--and in this case the layout artist--can be said to have created something from nothing. [...] The inker, letter (SIC) and colorist are craftsmen who provide the finishing look, but they are not considered creators as they are considered all interchangeable.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

The things I could say about this...

Edited May 23, 2015 by Zaysho

[horridus]

Pen's words were, and I am paraphrasing at the moment, that inkers just finish the artwork. They don't "create something from nothing" the way a writer, penciler, or even a layout artist would.

 

Even if I could read that in his friendliest voice, I would probably react just like Jason Lee's character did (guess who likes inking)...

 

Yep, THAT was it. It's a pretty disdainful view ot have, and again, staggeringly hypocritcal given that his work outside Sonic was mostly AS an inker and a colorist. Given how he was mouthing off about how Flynn should be working other companies and things other than Sonic, I wonder if that means he views the bulk of his career as 'not counting'. 

[Osmium]

Pen's words were, and I am paraphrasing at the moment, that inkers just finish the artwork. They don't "create something from nothing" the way a writer, penciler, or even a layout artist would.

 

Even if I could read that in his friendliest voice, I would probably react just like Jason Lee's character did (guess who likes inking)...

Eh. Its not that unusual, it seems to be on par with Penders' normal level of ignorance and hypocrisy.

[horridus]

@Zaysho: 

 

Wooow. Somehow that's even MORE condescending and pompous than I remembered. 

[biznizz]

"Interchangable"

 

Which is why there is a (shared with Penciler) Best Inker Award in the Eisners, and why most comic companies like Marvel & DC use the third credit on the cover to credit inkers.

 

Why there is actual talk about why Terry Austin's inking is less regarded than someone like Amash's.

[Zaysho]

"Interchangable"

 

Which is why there is a (shared with Penciler) Best Inker Award in the Eisners, and why most comic companies like Marvel & DC use the third credit on the cover to credit inkers.

 

Why there is actual talk about why Terry Austin's inking is less regarded than someone like Amash's.

 

Or to use one of his own examples, every time I ask someone who reads old superhero books about Vinnie Colletta... boy do those conversations turn dark fast.

 

I mean, the obvious irony given his career aside, it boggles my mind that he can possibly think like this AND still consider himself an expert in the field, when the very people he mentioned in the letter (comic collectors, historians, etc.) would vehemently disagree with him on that point. I actually don't even consider myself that knowledgeable on everything about comics, but between my own training and just reading a lot of fucking comics, I know that this is probably the most disrespectful and pompous thing I've seen someone who claims to care so much about creators' rights say. This just makes me genuinely angry on a whole other level.