Sonic Lost World @ Gamescom

[Scar]

2D padding is better than other padding, I'd agree. 

However, it seems like they don't really know what to do with their new gameplay and its better movement paradigm. That they need to use 2D stages as crutches in spite of having a better 3D gameplay engine, is kind of concerning.

[Soniman]

delete this please

Edited August 26, 2013 by Soniman

[Scar]

Or or OR.

 

 

 

 

Maybe

 

Whut?

[Soniman]

Whut?

 

My post literally just glitched out on me and won't save anything I say, so here's the actual post.

 

 

 

 

"Maybe they want to implement the 2D/3D design as their new philosophy for Sonic and they know what they're doing and have confidence in their own design abilities"

Edited August 26, 2013 by Soniman

[ArtFenix]

"Maybe they want to implement the 2D/3D design as their new philosophy for Sonic and they know what they're doing and have confidence in their own design abilities"

..except if that was actually their goal, you'd think they would at least TRY to make 2D stages as good and as close to classic games (in terms of gameplay and design) as possible. Unfortunately current 2D stages are mostly shit.

[Soniman]

Because 2D stages can only be good if they emulate the classics 100%, right.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Soniman

[SuperLink]

2D padding is better than other padding, I'd agree. 

However, it seems like they don't really know what to do with their new gameplay and its better movement paradigm. That they need to use 2D stages as crutches in spite of having a better 3D gameplay engine, is kind of concerning.

Basically yeah, they're relying on it because they can always fall back on it if something else goes wrong. Good to know Sonic Team is as talented and confident as ever (but I do have hopes that they're finally getting better)

 

..except if that was actually their goal, you'd think they would at least TRY to make 2D stages as good and as close to classic games (in terms of gameplay and design) as possible. Unfortunately current 2D stages are mostly shit.

And this too, they still don't seem to know how to actually make "classic" 2D. Maybe they'll get there someday, but for now.. yeah they're definitely lacking.

 

Because 2D stages can only be good if they emulate the classicc 100%, right.

No, but at the same time you can't just get a gameplay style designed to work in 3D and expect it to be equally exciting and engaging in 2D. It's not awful, but it's kinda bland..? Very standard unimaginative platforming. (well, in some opinions at least)

Edited August 26, 2013 by SuperLink

[SilentDoom]

It had to be done.  The universe would've collapsed if it wasn't

 

[Cyrus]

The second part of Windy Hill is designed more closer to a classic Sonic stage than any 2D section from Unleashed and Colors anyway.

[Scar]

Because 2D stages can only be good if they emulate the classicc 100%, right.

 

The Generations Classic and Sonic 4 debate.

But 2D Sidescrolling Sonic stages that don't function more or less the same as the pinnacle of 2D sidescrolling Sonic is kind of pointless.

And its not exactly a bad thing if they do emulate them, given that the classics were the pinnacle of 2D Sonic. The fact that they can't suggest that they fundamentally misunderstood what made the classics great in the first place. 

 

Basically yeah, they're relying on it because they can always fall back on it if something else goes wrong. Good to know Sonic Team is as talented and confident as ever (but I do have hopes that they're finally getting better)

 

See the thing is, for them to fall back on it, would be OK, if they got it remotely right at any stage. Which as of yet, they haven't managed to do. And I feel they should be trying to push the 3D gameplay as far as they can, without resorting to using 2D. Its not a huge deal, but after 3 games which had a bunch of 2D sections thrown into what was supposed to be a 3D game, I've kind of had enough.

 

..except if that was actually their goal, you'd think they would at least TRY to make 2D stages as good and as close to classic games (in terms of gameplay and design) as possible. Unfortunately current 2D stages are mostly shit.

 

This was the case in Generations and 4, but I haven't yet seen enough of Lost Worlds to comment. The fact that gravity acts in any direction the designers want, I have a feeling that it won't really feel like the classics anyway. Plus there is the run button, which puts a constraint on speed that wasn't there in the classics.

Anyway, tangenting.

 

The second part of Windy Hill is designed more closer to a classic Sonic stage than any 2D section from Unleashed and Colors anyway.

In what way?

A link to a video of said section would be helpful in illustrating your point too.

[SuperLink]

In what way?

A link to a video of said section would be helpful in illustrating your point too.

In terms of stage design I'd agree with Auto, even if not totally, there is more gradient hills and stuff like that.

 

However the total lack of momentum-based gameplay means it might not be all that great.

Still run buttons do work in 2D games, and the parkour system might be nice.

 

So while I don't think it's as good as transitioning to classic gameplay for 2D segments, I'm thinking it'll at least be better than Unleashed and Colours' 2D segments (and Generations' modern 2D)

Edited August 26, 2013 by SuperLink

[Scar]

The problem with the gradients I've seen so far, is that the gravity is still centralised. So though it may look like a slope, Sonic treats it like any ordinary flat surface.

[SuperLink]

The problem with the gradients I've seen so far, is that the gravity is still centralised. So though it may look like a slope, Sonic treats it like any ordinary flat surface.

Yeah I think this is indeed the case. So while the design itself may feel more classic and natural than the blocky 2D platforming of the last 3, it doesn't seem to affect Sonic himself at all. We'll just have to see if parkour and wall running/jumping add anything significant to make 2D gameplay interesting enough.

 

Oh and, it does look like spin-dashing off certain places can get you to higher spots, which is great.

[Vec]

 

 

 

It'd be painful if Sonic miscalculates while sliding and hits a cactus with his crotch D:

[Cyrus]

In what way?

 

As I've said before, it has more classic Sonic-y design elements than the 2D boost gameplay did, outside of the cheap loops that scream "HEY, LOOK! LOOPS! YA KNOW, CLASSIC! "

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ5OSu76rk8

 

Here's a checklist of what I think is classic Sonic level design, I'll check off what is in Windy Hill 4.2, as seen in the video above.

 

-Loops ✓

-Slopes ✓

-Environmental platforms ✓

-Flow ✓

-Multiple routes x (The linearity could be just be due to "Level One Syndrome". I'm guessing that this is the first or one of the few first of the 2D stages in the game)

-Momentum based gameplay ✓ (Well, sort of. The spin dash takes you further off ramps than running off of them, but the zero gravity-based gameplay and camera keep Sonic stuck to the ground on downward slopes.)

-Minimum Mario-esque block platforms ✓

 

Now here's what would be checked off for the majority of Unleashed, Colors, and Generations' 2D sections (excluding Classic Sonic's stages)

 

-Loops ✓

-Slopes ✓

-Environmental platforms x

-Flow x

-Multiple routes x

-Momentum based gameplay x

-Minimum Mario-esque block platforms x

 

Sonic Lost World (so far) - 6/7

Boost Trilogy - 2/7

 

So Sonic Lost World's 2D is way more designed like a classic Sonic stage than the boost trilogy's. I know that it's pointless and now kind of a sin to compare modern games to the classics, but I just wanted to point out how Windy Hill 4.2 made me think "Hmmm, this is structured very closely to games like Sonic 1," but also back up my thoughts.

 

EDIT: Aaagh, somehow I knew that those ticks would screw with the text.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Auto

[Scar]

I mentioned not too long ago, that the way Gravity works in Lost World pretty much negates the slopes in Lost World. Because the gravity is centralised, slopes are treated like ordinary flat, level surfaces. The rest of your points are arbitrary. Momentum-based gameplay? What is that, and where is it in Lost Worlds, cause I certainly don't see it. Flow? What is that? What defines it? How is it lacking in the boost trilogy? Given that you can blast through the stages in Unleashed and Generations at max speed, with relative ease, I'd say its got a lot of flow. The only game that could be argued as breaking flow, is Colours. "Minimum-Mario-esque-Block Platforms"? What?

[Soniman]

The slopes as flat surface complaint only works if they are long enough and specifically designed to shift the level orientation, otherwise small normal slopes are just that, normal slopes.

[Kuzu]

I can smell another slope physics argument coming.

 

Damn I sure know how to call'em.

 

While I don't hate 2D in 3D games, I am kind of sick of it being the standard from now on.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[SilentDoom]

Honestly it's difficult to tell from the videos we have so far.  We've only seen 2 2D levels in full and even then we can't fully gauge the significance of the slopes and physics until we get our hands on it and start experimenting for ourselves.  I'm curious to see if there are nifty tricks you can pull off with the slopes and parkour.  

[Cyrus]

Momentum-based gameplay? What is that, and where is it in Lost Worlds, cause I certainly don't see it.

 

In the classic games, the player was able to use speed to build up momentum to do all sorts of things like use the roll to go down hills faster, building up enough speed to fly higher off of ramps, that rolling trick in Spring Yard Zone and Collision Chaos 2 when rolling up and down in the giant half pipes takes Sonic higher and higher, etc.

 

 

 Flow? What is that? What defines it? How is it lacking in the boost trilogy? Given that you can blast through the stages in Unleashed and Generations at max speed, with relative ease, I'd say its got a lot of flow.

 

Flow is when you can breeze through a level easily, sometimes having to memorize set peices like obstacles and enemies, without having to wait for something to happen, like a fire rod to finish rotating, a floating platform to line up to the position that you can jump on and proceed with the level, or an enemy to lower it's sheild. Flow is great for speed running. It lacks in the majority of the 2D stages of the boost trilogy because each game has almost all of what I've just mentioned are things that take away flow in said 2D stages.

 

 

 "Minimum-Mario-esque-Block Platforms"? What?

 

This is what 99% or Sonic Colors was. Blocky, unimaginative platforming that are forced into the game, kinda like Sonic Team's way of saying "You want your platforming? Here you go, merry fuckin' Christmas."

 

 

.... Seriously?

 

Another example is this infamous poster child of block platforming.

 

 

"Now what would a platform game be without platforms?"

Edited August 26, 2013 by Auto

[Scar]

In the classic games, the player was able to use speed to build up momentum to do all sorts of things like use the roll to go down hills faster, building up enough speed to fly higher off of ramps, that rolling trick in Spring Yard Zone and Collision Chaos 2 when rolling up and down in the giant half pipes takes Sonic higher and higher, etc.

Right, so where is it in Lost World?

 

 

Flow is when you can breeze through a level easily, sometimes having to memorize set peices like obstacles and enemies, without having to wait for something to happen, like a fire rod to finish rotating, a floating platform to line up to the position that you can jump on and proceed with the level, or an enemy to lower it's sheild. Flow is great for speed running. It lacks in the majority of the 2D stages of the boost trilogy because each game has almost all of what I've just mentioned are things that take away flow in said 2D stages.

Not sure I understand what you mean by this....Colours had little flow, I agree. Unleashed and Generations did though, considering you could fly through stages quite easily, with little loss in speed, or "flow".

 

This is what 99% or Sonic Colors was. Blocky, unimaginative platforming that are forced into the game, kinda like Sonic Team's way of saying "You want your platforming? Here you go, merry fuckin' Christmas."

 

**pic**

 

.... Seriously?

 

Another example is this infamous poster child of block platforming.

 

**another pic**

 

"Now what would a platform game be without platforms?"

OK, I'll give you that. Still, there's not much evidence as yet, to suggest that Lost Worlds doesn't do this, or is any different.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Scar

[Cyrus]

Right, so where is it in Lost World?

 

Spin dashing off of a ramp takes you higher than running. Sadly, as I mentioned in the check list, Sonic Lost World doesn't have downwards rolling physics. (Just because I'm mentioning physics, doesn't mean that I'm not trying to start another physics argument, put that accusation gun down)

Edited August 26, 2013 by Auto

[Faseeh]

Eh, this Gamescom was pretty damn entertaining from the awesome screenshots to 60fps videos to the trailer. Was all great to see.

 

Honestly guys. I'll take parkour over Hedgehog Engine.

 

I mean, if I can get 60fps, a better gameplay style, more levels, more content, with a slightly less powerful than "omghd" quality graphics engine like Hedgehog Engine, I'll gladly take it. 

 

But I would like too see more grounded and not in the sky levels next time, with city and all the more Sonic-y tropes too. Another cool thing like a World Adventure would be nice haha.

 

Hm, the music. Eh. I'm not kidding, so far I find this OST eh. Desert Ruins is all boring for me, the candy one being the only that I find cool. Oh wait, the honeycomb one, yeah. That's good but I would have had something a bit more foresty but I like it. Windy Hill is good, but not really something I really can listen a lot too. Frozen Factory stuff, I really haven't listened much but they're there for me. This is really my musical opinions, but I'm sure this OST will grow on me. I mean the candy one did.

 

I'm really counting on the Aquarium Park esque level and Sky Sanctuary esque levels to deliver awesome music! AND awesome remixes of those! 

 

Yeah, can't wait to see what else we have in store and play this game! that is...2 or more years later or maybe only after i become adult ;-----------;

[Maddnsk]

Honestly guys. I'll take parkour over Hedgehog Engine.

 

I mean, if I can get 60fps, a better gameplay style, more levels, more content, with a slightly less powerful than "omghd" quality graphics engine like Hedgehog Engine, I'll gladly take it. 

 

 

But Sonic Lost World runs on Hedgehog engine, screens like this is a prove:

http://nintendoeverything.com/wp-content/gallery/sonic-lost-world_11/slw-7-1.jpg

just look at wall that sonic is climbing, look at leaves, that cast green color to wall, SLW has GIA.

 

And here, look on sonic gloves, they have green reflection from the floor.

http://nintendoeverything.com/wp-content/gallery/sonic-lost-world_11/slw-4-1.jpg

 

Because of SLW "opened" nature that not clearly seen most of the time.

 

All that they actually did is programmed different, lets call it, "gameplay" engine to existing render engine.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Maddnsk

[Cyrus]

Global illumination.... *drools*

 

G'aah, must refrain from talking about the graphics!