Sonic Lost World @ Gamescom

[Sami]

Are we really discussing whether or not this or the boost games had "flow"? ... Alright, I guess.

 

They both look fine to me as far as that goes, I suppose. Not the candy level, but eh. Some of the other stuff we've seen looks good in that regard. Unleashed and Generations were awesome about it though, as well. Possibly even better, honestly. If you're good you can beat an entire level without stopping for a moment. If you're good.

 

Like, actually really good at the game and memorized the level. No hyperbole here. 

 

I can't fathom how those games could possibly have bad "flow" when they're literally built for speedrunning. 

 

Hell - the classics had you stop to jump platforms and whatnot a lot more often, so I'm really not sure why "flow" is suddenly a pivotal part of game design.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Discoid

[Cyrus]

If THAT isn't the most pure example of great flow then I don't know what to tell you.

The parkour is definitely gonna add to the flow, especially in the 3rd person stages. Ooooh boy.

[Diogenes]

Hell - the classics had you stop to jump platforms and whatnot a lot more often, so I'm really not sure why "flow" is suddenly a pivotal part of game design all of a sudden.

Flow is important to almost any game, but different kinds of games have different kinds of flow.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Still much better than a full stop that you have to do in SLoW. Often.

Nice try though)).

 

As someone who has actually played the game and who is NOT a fan of it right now (based on the SOS/Boom/Comic con build).

 

This is completely false.

 

As long as Sonic is actually running/parkour, you can NOT crash to a dead stop. You are constantly moving.

 

There are however problems in which if you do not move out of the way you'll climb up a tree or a wall as apposed to running past it. But the claim that Sonic hits the wall and stops dead is wrong. Don't believe me?

 

Here is my actual quote from my preview.

 

 

 

When you run as Sonic and you have ‘Magical anti-gravity shoe mode’ activated, you’re gonna get frustrated, I started off Windy Hill running at a great pace, when suddenly I started running up a tree because I had ‘Magical anti-gravity shoe mode’ activated, I don’t wish to climb this tree, yet due to the nature of the controls, you’re not pushed to the side and continue on, you start to climb up objects if you want to or not unless you release/hold specific buttons during your sprints, again, adds to the controls being very complicated.

 

http://www.sonicstadium.org/2013/08/tss-preview-sonic-lost-world/

 

Now I don't particually like the idea of suddenly going up a tree when I want to run past it, I would rather sonic hits the tree and slows down or something or other.

 

The claim 'Sonic dead stops' is completely wrong.

[SilentDoom]

Are we really discussing whether or not this or the boost games had "flow"? ... Alright, I guess.

 

They both look fine to me as far as that goes, I suppose. Not the candy level, but eh. Some of the other stuff we've seen looks good in that regard. Unleashed and Generations were awesome about it though, as well. Possibly even better, honestly. If you're good you can beat an entire level without stopping for a moment. If you're good.

 

Like, actually really good at the game and memorized the level. No hyperbole here. 

 

I can't fathom how those games could possibly have bad "flow" when they're literally built for speedrunning. 

 

Hell - the classics had you stop to jump platforms and whatnot a lot more often, so I'm really not sure why "flow" is suddenly a pivotal part of game design all of a sudden.

 

I actually can agree with this.  However, I'd say there's a sort of gradient.  Games like Unleashed and Generations have really great flow when you're really good at the game, but terrible flow when you're not.  Whether or not Lost World will have as good a sense of overall flow considering the pace of the game has yet to be seen as we have yet to see any really good players that make the best of the mechanics, but so far to me Lost World's flow overall seems a little better since it seems like it's a little easier to ease into when you're less skilled at the game or knowledgeable with regards to the level design.

 

[Linkabel]

Yep, I agree with Hogfather. Like him, I've played the game and right now I'm not a big fan but it does not suffer from "flow problems"...well maybe in the wisp part, but that's because I did not know how to control it during that particular moment.

[Blitz 'n Burst]

how come there's no eagle wisp in silent forest? was that one a different act?

[Soniman]

He just didn't use it im guessing. Which kinda highlights how optional they are.

[Celestia]

It's either hidden somewhere/on a path we haven't seen yet or in a different act.

 

Personally I'm thinking the former. There's still probably a lot of Silent Forest we haven't seen yet, kind of like how it took a bit to see (almost?) everything of Windy Hill Zone 1 because of all the different paths.

Edited August 26, 2013 by ElementofChaos

[Captain Candle]

how come there's no eagle wisp in silent forest? was that one a different act?

Either that, or it's in a different area of the level.

EDIT: Double ninja'd.

Edited August 26, 2013 by TheCandlemaker

[Chaos Warp]

 

If THAT isn't the most pure example of great flow then I don't know what to tell you.

True, but that's a 3d section, which in general (from what we've seen) seem to have great flow if you play them skilfully. While some 2d levels have shown flow, some like that 2d Candy level have shown a worrying lack of it. 

[Blitz 'n Burst]

ah, never mind. I looked through the footage again and there's a wisp icon by it so yeh, it must be on a seperate path

The fact that the wisps aren't necessary to enjoy the game is definitely a good thing, but makes me think the wisps will ultimately be inconsequential to the story and will just kinda be handwaved by the writers, which bothers me but oh well

Edited August 26, 2013 by Blitz 'n Burst

[Willsy]

Just adding my two cents into the whole "flow" thing;

 

By the looks of it, flow depends on player choices and skill. If you want to rocket through the stage, you can. It's just in the gameplay videos, the demo-er kept stopping so the PR could show things off. It's not because Lost World is slow and flow-less, its because we haven't played the game for ourselves yet. I bet I could shoot through Windy Hill on my first playthrough, but I won't since I want to explore and rescue some animals.

 

Thing is, Unleashed isn't a game that has flow. The flow of the game in it's eternity was crushed by the Werehog. I even gave up on the game for about 6 months because I was so pissed off with the Werehog levels and just generally the flow of the game. Also the irresponsive controls and framerate issues broke my flow a lot too. Generations had some good flow to it, however some control issues did return from Unleashed, but overall, Generations handled it pretty well.

 

Lost World, as I said, gives the player a choice; You can go fast and lose the chance to explore and discover things, or you can slow down a little and find collectables, save animals, etc. It also depends on player skill. Going fast might be risky in some areas, and could result in death. The player would need to slow down or come up with a strategy to go fast over that section. 

 

So I'm very satisfied with Lost World in the terms of flow, and merging it with player skill is a very good decision in my opinion..

Edited August 26, 2013 by Wil348

[Sami]

Flow is important to almost any game, but different kinds of games have different kinds of flow.

 

... So then, how could one say that the boost games didn't have flow? And for that matter, what the hell is it?

 

The impression that I got from @ut0's explanation is that an abundance of flow connotes the ability to play through a level without stopping for a moment, something Unleashed and Generations absolutely excelled at (Sonic Adventure was quite good at this too, if I recall). The classics were not built like that; they were much slower games in general and not as much emphasis was placed on speedrunning and constant movement back then.

[Diogenes]

... So then, how could one say that the boost games didn't have flow?

Some games are bad at it.

And for that matter, what the hell is it?

It's like, the rhythm of the gameplay. How it moves between things. Between parts of the level, from obstacle to obstacle, from encouraging aggressive play to encouraging defensive play...the boost games are bad at this because they're only really designed for one thing. Yeah, when you know what you're doing you can move through the levels smoothly, but it doesn't have good flow because there's no ebb, no contrast, just a plateau of samey speed. When the levels do have platforming sections (assuming you don't simply pass them on another high speed route), Sonic doesn't have any meaningful way to interact with things, so they're clumsy and boring, and they feel like a punishment; there's contrast with the speed sections, but they're not actually fun, and the transition is like hitting a brick wall.

SLoW backs away from the super-high speeds which softens the transition between speedy sections and more platforming-heavy ones, and the parkour abilities both enhance Sonic's ability to platform and serve as a link between platforming and speed, so I think it's going to do a lot better with having a proper flow to it than the boost gameplay ever did or ever could.

[Ratcicle King]

ah, never mind. I looked through the footage again and there's a wisp icon by it so yeh, it must be on a seperate path

The fact that the wisps aren't necessary to enjoy the game is definitely a good thing, but makes me think the wisps will ultimately be inconsequential to the story and will just kinda be handwaved by the writers, which bothers me but oh well

Yacker is seen on the World Map for Windy Hill talking to Sonic... I know these are the writers of Generations but I dont think one can handwave THAT much.

[Faseeh]

From what I've seen, the Hedgehog Engine was either totally revamped with several elements sticking, they used the so called 'Hedgehog Engine 2.0/Secret Rings Engine except we added some Unleashed stuff into it' engine or they made a new engine.

 

Due to the gameplay being so much different from Generations to Lost World, and the visuals looking like just some global illumination but not as omgechdeeeeee as Unleashed and allowing the game to played at 60fps without asking for a huge amount of things, I'd say is it's actually the so called 'Hedgehog Engine 2.0' from Colours updated to better fit the Wii U is the most probable thing that happened. Seems the easiest and most possible imo.

 

 

(Note: The moment you put in GIA, have a huge draw distance, have a whole lot of details you're really not gonna get near 60fps on a current gen console on the Hedgehog Engine.)

 

(Note 2: I call it Hedgehog Engine 2.0, it's an unofficial name. Sonic Team has said here and there that an engine from SatSR and a scaled down version of an Engine from Unleashed 360 was used for Colours, so I'll just think from the visuals and gameplay, they were mixed. Yup.)

 

Also since Colours was already kinda like one system only, it was pretty much already tailored and 'perfected' for the Wii. Even though the Wii and Wii U are very different, I'd guess it'd be easier to 'convert' engines from that to this then 360 to Wii U and get worse results.

 

 

But Sonic Lost World runs on Hedgehog engine, screens like this is a prove:

http://nintendoeverything.com/wp-content/gallery/sonic-lost-world_11/slw-7-1.jpg

just look at wall that sonic is climbing, look at leaves, that cast green color to wall, SLW has GIA.

 

A lot of games have GIA dood. It's pretty close minded to think that Hedgehog Engine is the only one that supports. I mean, it's one of the earliest developed ones, but it's also one of the most lacking ones now.

 

 

The visual "sacrifices", aren't necessary for performance increases. We are afterall, on more powerful platforms now. Besides, the actual Hedgehog Engine is obsolete and was pretty inefficient at what it was trying to do anyway. There are far more sophisticated graphics engines out there, that can  provide exceptional visuals, without a ridiculous performance overhead.

 

I don't really think the Wii U is a HUUUUGE enough step from the 360 to make sure it could have the visuals and the performance together. That'd mean the Wii U had to be as good as current-day really good computers, and even those aren't really the norm. But I'd rather Sonic Team focus on gameplay first before visuals. I mean dood, it's not even that case here. The visuals are stellar and we have pretty much everything except the so called richness from Hedgehog Engine and that's mostly cos of the art direction.

 

Now that is your choice to like it or not, but yeah. I think this is a great choice, even tho graphical and technical speaking, it's not as 'innovative' and 'outstanding' as the Boost Era stuff. 

 

And I'd rather Sonic Team use an engine they made so they know it best, from its limits to its advantages. The last time we had a gameplay/graphics engine from somewhere else (Heroes, Renderware, not sure what engine it was but anyways), we knew that Sonic Team didn't know it best from the controls/visuals. 

 

Making/modifying an existing engine they made is best for them and the game.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Faseeh

[ArtFenix]

What I meant to say, in SLoW there are some parts where you HAVE to make a full stop. Some examples:

 - kicking badniks. You stop after a kick

 - snowball level checkpoints. Once you touch one, you lose ALL your speed and stop

 - Silent forest level, spiders section. Makes you stop completely to kill enemies AND wait for the butterflies to do stuff to open the flower so you could move on.

etc.

It's not about the player, it's about the physics and level design

[Faseeh]

What I meant to say, in SLoW there are some parts where you HAVE to make a full stop. Some examples:

 - kicking badniks. You stop after a kick

 - snowball level checkpoints. Once you touch one, you lose ALL your speed and stop

 - Silent forest level, spiders section. Makes you stop completely to kill enemies AND wait for the butterflies to do stuff to open the flower so you could move on.

etc.

It's not about the player, it's about the physics and level design

 

I'm so damn sure there are more than one paths in Silent Forest from what we've seen. I mean there has to be.

 

The kick is mostly optional, but yeah it doesn't take up much time, it takes some flow yes but it is just to break up the flow then and now, which is good.

 

Snowball levels, are cool gimmicks. Think of it like Emerald Hunting.

[edvedd]

Well, I don't see anything in Silent Forest that indicates you HAVE to do the spider bit. They were bouncing off a lot of paths in the gamespot demo, and it seems that the rep was using the slowest possible one down the middle. 

[ArtFenix]

Snowball level is cool only if you used it as a pun. It's garbage. You litarelly play as a friacking snowball the whole level. Who asked for this? Heck, even on result screen you see the snowball! It's slow, it's boring and I see absolutely no fun in that level.

As for the spiders sections.. Yeah, ok, we'll see if they can be avoided nce the game comes out.

[Lady Soniko]

What I meant to say, in SLoW there are some parts where you HAVE to make a full stop. Some examples:

 - kicking badniks. You stop after a kick

 - snowball level checkpoints. Once you touch one, you lose ALL your speed and stop

 - Silent forest level, spiders section. Makes you stop completely to kill enemies AND wait for the butterflies to do stuff to open the flower so you could move on.

etc.

It's not about the player, it's about the physics and level design

 

This is a straw man argument as it comes, what exactly are you trying to prove here? Is there something inherently wrong with stopping and taking out a set number of badniks to proceed? Just because you can't, say... Boost through everything like cannon fodder pretty much rendering all of Eggman's mechs pointless in the boost games, but I digress and god forbid that we must briefly stop in a Sonic game!

[ArtFenix]

This is a straw man argument as it comes, what exactly are you trying to prove here? Is there something inherently wrong with stopping and taking out a set number of badniks to proceed? Just because you can't, say... Boost through everything like cannon fodder pretty much rendering all of Eggman's mechs pointless in the boost games, but I digress and god forbid that we must briefly stop in a Sonic game!

Did you like those areas in Sonic Rush where you HAD to destroy all enemies to proceed? Did you like the werehog battles where you couldn't get any further until all the enemies are destroyed?

I didn't. That's why I don't want it ever again.

[Spееdy]

Even speedrunners on Unleashed/Gens/Colors have to stop sometimes in order of not being screwed up and loose the "good" flow that they had. It's a platformer game, and that what's it said. Of course you have to stop. It's not like a racing or something.

Edited August 27, 2013 by SpeedyTH

[ArtFenix]

Even speedrunners on Unleashed/Gens/Colors have to stop sometimes in order of not being screwed up and loose the "good" flow that they had. It's a platformer game, and that what's it said. Of course you have to stop. It's not like a racing or something.

Except it's a SONIC platformer but it's not only slow but also forces you to stop often making it even slower than it already is.