Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Milo]

The problem then would be how to properly incorporate the whole Solaris backstory with Shadow's. If not done well, it'd just be the same as what we actually got in ShtH, only with sun gods instead of aliens.

 

Oh, and while Black Doom has a crap design that makes him a Wizeman knock-off, I'd still take even that over Fridge-Shadow.

 

 

I'll respectfully disagree, what with Diogene's reasoning and also due to my own hate-boner for Mephiles.

 

I'm surprised such things exist. Eight years and I still haven't been on the internet long enough.

[Semi-colon e]

I was suggesting that they wouldn't. Mephiles would be his own thing and only have his ties to Shadow: the rest doesn't happen.

 

And perhaps not called Mephiles, but he'd have the same sort of role in relation to Shadow and same personality. I guess by this point you'd have a new character, but meh, the whole "trying to tempt Shadow into evil" would have worked better there than in 06 where it just takes the focus off Sonic.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Semi-colon e

[Sega DogTagz]

I'll respectfully disagree, what with Diogene's reasoning and also due to my own hate-boner for Mephiles.

 

Then leave Mephi out of the equation.

 

There is plenty to like about the concept of Shadow being tempted to fall back into the cycle of being dictated by his past.

 

He literally said Sayanora to that crap and reaffirmed that decision in 06. That is quality character development in a series where that has been seriously lacking.

[Diogenes]

There's nothing "quality" about it. He forgets who he is, he blunders around for a while, he eventually says "fuck this", and then Mephiles tries to get him to...????

[Sega DogTagz]

There's nothing "quality" about it. He forgets who he is, he blunders around for a while, he eventually says "fuck this", and then Mephiles tries to get him to...????

 

?

 

I was thinking more along the lines of,

 

Shadow leaves himself behind at the end of shth > Mephilies touts that humanity will still persecute him for what he is, should seek revenge > Shadow reaffirms that he dictates his own destiny now.

 

 

 

Life decision made. Life Decision challenged. Life decision affirmed.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Sega DogTagz

[Kuzu]

?

 

I was thinking more along the lines of,

 

Shadow leaves himself behind at the end of shth > Mephilies touts that humanity will still persecute him for what he is, should seek revenge > Shadow reaffirms that he dictates his own destiny now.

 

 

 

Life decision made. Life Decision challenged. Life decision affirmed.

 

But Shadow is hero, and agent by that point, so what reason would Shadow have to believe Mephiles beyond his own words.

[Sega DogTagz]

But Shadow is hero, and agent by that point, so what reason would Shadow have to believe Mephiles beyond his own words.

 

Its the seeding of doubt that is important (kinda like what he did to Omega). Even if Mephiles was fabricating his story, he offered Shadow and a readily obtainable "out" to a life decision that he has recently made.

 

 

... nevermind that Shadows backstory kinda makes him pretty keen on what darkness humanity is capable of...

 

 

 

None of it really matters anyway. Shadow didn't base his decision on the credibility of Mephilies appeal. He chose to follow the path that he currently set for himself, rather than one dictated by someone else be it Mephi or humanity.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Sega DogTagz

[Kuzu]

Its the seeding of doubt that is important (kinda like what he did to Omega). Even if Mephiles was fabricating his story, he offered Shadow and a readily obtainable "out" to a life decision that he has recently made.

 

 

... nevermind that Shadows backstory kinda makes him pretty keen on what darkness humanity is capable of...

 

 

 

None of it really matters anyway. Shadow didn't base his decision on the credibility of Mephilies appeal. He chose to follow the path that he currently set for himself, rather than one dictated by someone else be it Mephi or humanity.

 

 

But Shadow himself doesn't seem too bothered by his words, I mean after Mephiles tells him all of that he doesn't really dwell on it for long until the situation with Omega is brought up at which point it still isn't really touched upon. It's just kinda treated in passing.

 

Temptation only works well if the tempted actually considers joining the tempter's side, but not only did Shadow never consider joining Mephiles` , he already had made his decision to keep fighting by that point in his life. 

 

Now if this whole subplot was used at the height of Shadow's character development before his Heel Face Turn then it would have been a decent conclusion and prove Shadow's loyalties, but since he was already a hero for all intents and purpose and showed no signs of falling back into the dark side it just doesn't feel as poignant as it should.

[Tara]

As a different form of criticism, the whole Mephiles thing is flawed in general in the fact that by 2006, we--or at least, I--was kind of sick of hearing about Shadow's past to begin with.  I mean, rather or not that scene portrays anything resembling quality character development, is Shadow's past the ONLY thing that makes him weak?  Is that the ONLY thing that he has an emotional attachment to?  Is there NO other way to get under his skin than to incorperate his dark past into the mix?  I mean, didn't ShTH butcher the concept enough?!

[Kuzu]

As a different form of criticism, the whole Mephiles thing is flawed in general in the fact that by 2006, we--or at least, I--was kind of sick of hearing about Shadow's past to begin with.  I mean, rather or not that scene portrays anything resembling quality character development, is Shadow's past the ONLY thing that makes him weak?  Is that the ONLY thing that he has an emotional attachment to?  Is there NO other way to get under his skin than to incorperate his dark past into the mix?  I mean, didn't ShTH butcher the concept enough?!

 

To be fair, Shadow's past wasn't even apart of the equation in regards to Mephiles` temptation. He tried to convince Shadow that humanity would eventually turn on him anyway, and that he's better off going against them. Now I know it sounds similar to ShTH, but it still it's not exactly something related to his past.

[Tara]

To be fair, Shadow's past wasn't even apart of the equation in regards to Mephiles` temptation. He tried to convince Shadow that humanity would eventually turn on him anyway, and that he's better off going against them. Now I know it sounds similar to ShTH, but it still it's not exactly something related to his past.

Not inherently, but even in that regard, it's still about his distrust of humans, which undoubtedly stems from his past.  I'll give you that it's at least not trying to retell the events of SA2, but it's still trying to dig up something that's already been resolved and doesn't need to be brought up yet again.

 

EDIT - NEVERMIND!  Rewatched the cutscene, and you're right.  Has nothing to do with his past.  Sorry about that.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Akito

[Tani Coyote]

I actually liked the Sonic Storybook Series

 

Put her there!

 

I loved Black Knight. Some nice plot twists (if somewhat poorly set up), and very nostalgic due to all the Adventure-era parts.

 

I also want to point out, I had a friend agree with me on this, but I believe that it is a necessity to have Super Sonic fight a "Final Boss" at the end of a Sonic Game, it just doesn't really feel like a Sonic Game without it, to me anyways. I'm trying to word this carefully so I can express my full opinion, but for example, one of the reasons I didn't like Sonic Colors, was because you didn't go Super when fighting the final boss, still an okay boss, but I would have found more excitement from it if it were while gone Super Sonic. I noticed that the DS version of Sonic Colors did have a secret stage for Super Sonic to fight a boss, but I was slightly fustraited and somewhat confused on why it was taken out from the Wii version.

 

Well, Super Sonic is like Shadow. They're both very useful characters for aweing the audience and all, but if they're used often they will rapidly grow stale. You can have too much of a good thing; the same level, the same song, the same food all the time loses what made it so wonderful in the first place. Variety is a must.

 

I mean, rather or not that scene portrays anything resembling quality character development, is Shadow's past the ONLY thing that makes him weak?  Is that the ONLY thing that he has an emotional attachment to?  Is there NO other way to get under his skin than to incorperate his dark past into the mix?

 

I always presumed that reminding him the fact everyone he grows to care about will die probably could get under his skin. He's the usual "act tough to hide the fact you have human emotions" kind of guy. It is a depressing existence. All his power and he can do so little with it. All his power and yet, he's powerless to save everyone from dying at the end of the day...

 

@ Ragna

 

It makes sense. We learn from the past, yes?

 

Humanity betrayed Shadow and all he loved so severely in the past. Trying to convince Shadow that humans will never change and will inevitably sell him down the river again is actually somewhat clever.

 

Unfortunately, the fact Shadow's working for the same organisation that took everything away from him shows he's forgiven, if not forgotten. He's willing to give the humans another chance. As is logical; between Amy and Maria's remarks I think he's determined that as much of a bastard as the race can be at times, people are ultimately good and worth protecting.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[NocturnalTwilight]

I would just be interested in why you think 2006's story is "Awesome but confusing".

If your point is that the game's plot is good because it's "complex", then it ultimately fails its purpose by being unecessarily convoluted with so much garbage writing and plotholes. 

 

Alright. The part about it being "confusing" to me would probably mean that there were some parts of the Story I actually had to look into with research to actually find the meaning of what a particular scene meant. The were several parts I didn't fully understand, so I had to look them up, I can't exactly remember what parts, but some just confused me. 

 

Also, I really don't know how to explain why I thought the Story was good, I just liked it!

 

About the second quote, I never said that I thought it was good because it was complex. I actually don't care much for games with complex stories.

 

Do Sonic 1 and 2 not feel like Sonic games to you, then?

 

I never said that, my friend. Sonic 1 was a time before Super Sonic was introduced.

Sonic 2 was good, never said it wasn't. It does however, have Super Sonic. Not sure why you brought it up xD

This does make me think of the games from the Sonic Storybook Series that don't end with Super Sonic, but a new Super Form. I'm okay with that. Although I would have been happy to see Darkspine Sonic return in the Black Knight, but Excalibur Sonic was fine too!

 

Oh, but I kid.  I don't understand your point, but I respect it.

 

I appreciate that, not everyone usually does. It's a hard opinion to express without someone fussing about it xD

 

Put her there!

Well, Super Sonic is like Shadow. They're both very useful characters for aweing the audience and all, but if they're used often they will rapidly grow stale. You can have too much of a good thing; the same level, the same song, the same food all the time loses what made it so wonderful in the first place. Variety is a must.

 

Thanks! I was hoping for the return of Darkspine in Black Knight, but Excalibur Sonic was good too! 

 

Also, I have to respectfully disagree with your comment "Super Sonic is like Shadow". At least if you're comparing by power, because I think Super Sonic would defeat Shadow with little to no effort.

[Spin Attaxx]

Sonic 2 was good, never said it wasn't. It does however, have Super Sonic. Not sure why you brought it up xD

Because Sonic 2's final boss doesn't have Super Sonic in it. I suppose Sonic Colours doesn't feel like a Sonic game to you either.

[Tara]

Because Sonic 2's final boss doesn't have Super Sonic in it. I suppose Sonic Colours doesn't feel like a Sonic game to you either.

More specifically, Sonic 2 didn't have the rings that enabled you to become Super Sonic during the final boss fight.  However, Super Sonic did appear in the ending cutscene provided you collected all the Chaos Emeralds.  As for Colors, you can go Super Sonic in that fight if I remember correctly.  At least, I know you can go Super Sonic on the level before the final boss anyway.

[Spin Attaxx]

You can't turn Super in any boss fight in Colours.

[Tani Coyote]

Also, I have to respectfully disagree with your comment "Super Sonic is like Shadow". At least if you're comparing by power, because I think Super Sonic would defeat Shadow with little to no effort.

 

The comment's entirely on their role in a story. They both can be fairly awe inspiring and useful in a plot and gameplay due to what they bring to the table, but if utilised too much could lose that special status. I think this is the reason Sega cut Shadow after four games straight of him; they wanted to save him for more limited, special occasions.

[Diogenes]

But they cut practically everyone at the same time.

[Kamakai]

IMO, this was probably to restore focus to Sonic. His role had been dramatically reduced in the stories of Shadow and 06, so SEGA gave him the spotlight again. The others come back I n Generations, though, to make sure they are remembered in the anniversary.

[Kuzu]

It's still pretty annoying to have the entire cast bar a few to be cut, especially since others already had reduced roles before Unleashed. If anything, the only characters whom they should have cut the relevance down for was Shadow considering he was essentially the center of the franchise at that point.

[Diogenes]

I honestly can't fault them for trimming back on the cast; they desperately needed to refocus, to reexamine the characters and find out how to apply them better, and that would probably be easier starting with just a few core characters than trying to do everyone at once.

 

The problem is that they didn't really fix much, tho'.

[Kuzu]

Well I wouldn't say that; they reestablished Sonic as the protagonist and hero considering up until 2007, it was hard to even call him such given how irrelevant he was. And the same can be said about Eggman's role as the Antagonist. Everyone else was kinda irrelevant tho.

[iDEATH]

I've possibly mentioned this in this topic already but I FRIKKIN' LOVE all three Jaleel cartoons. AoStH is by far the best IMO. It's just awesome, great recurring characters, zany plots, just a lot of fun. SatAM's great but a little too serious at times and a few episodes are a little too samey. Sonic Undergrounds a good mix between the two, it's got the "serious" satam story but with a few fun elements of aosth, and the songs are pretty good a lot of the time.

[Diogenes]

Well I wouldn't say that; they reestablished Sonic as the protagonist and hero considering up until 2007, it was hard to even call him such given how irrelevant he was. And the same can be said about Eggman's role as the Antagonist. Everyone else was kinda irrelevant tho.

As far as Sonic being the hero, they only really fucked that up once, with '06; ShtH wasn't his game, and in everything else he's pretty clearly The Guy, so I don't really count that. Eggman, I guess they did fix him a bit.

[Kuzu]

As far as Sonic being the hero, they only really fucked that up once, with '06; ShtH wasn't his game, and in everything else he's pretty clearly The Guy, so I don't really count that. Eggman, I guess they did fix him a bit.

 

 

Well, while Shadow wasn't about Sonic, it did kind of go out of it's way to portray him as being so inferior to Shadow, so it does kinda count.