Sonic-related pet peeves?

[Spin Attaxx]

No, it's not a bad thing, but I wouldn't be sure what you mean overall. For example: Blaze being from the future was retconned by Iizuka. It doesn't mean that the creators never intended for "the future" as an actual concept to exist in the series, (again, time travel was introduced via the Time Stones in a Classic Sonic game, so clearly time travel as a concept "fits" the aesthetic of Sonic) and that it's some kind of concept too mature for the series. My point is that we've had the idea of gods and other dangerous/mystical/serious stuff since the series' roots and, as you say with the Time Stones, care should merely be taken to write about these concepts properly instead of arbitrarily deciding that they don't fit because Sonic looks just cartoony enough to be completely unable to "handle" them.

 

I was talking more about the plot holes than the Time Stones, but OK.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Spin Attaxx

[Dr. Crusher]

Just came by to say I feel achieved for pointing something minor out regardless of it having any likely meaning.

 

Feels good, man.

 

EDIT: Grrr, computer isn't letting me quote Verte for some reason.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Dr. Crusher

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Um, yeah...probably late to the punch, but to add to this whole "Sonic is a cartoon that doesn't need to take itself seriously"...

 

Kung Fu Panda 1 is about an anthropomorphic talking Panda in China trying to learn kung fu and being destined to defeat a leopard who threatens his land. Pretty much The Jungle Book meets Kung Fu Hustle. It's funny, but then shit gets real dark and heavy in the climax...and it STILL ends up being hilarious when that panda joins the fight.

 

Kung Fu Panda 2 takes all that and starts off with fucking on-screen genocide in the introduction. Nevermind how it even goes darker than the first movie by being about the panda trying to stop a fucking peacock (and a downright EVIL and SADISTIC one at that) from trying to conquer all of China with cannons that make kung fu pointless, and that peacock actually kills a few characters both on and off screen. Basically takes the stuff in first movie up to eleven.

 

Both of those manage to take themselves seriously while actually being pretty funny and slapstick.

 

You want more?

 

How about Lion King, Pokemon: The First Movies (or any movie), Toy Story, Wreck-it Ralph, and hell since people love to compare this series with Mario let's add him to the list. I could type a whole dissertation-esque essay over how hella one-sided and ridiculous it is to believe that there's no way you can't have such cartoons treating themselves seriously while at the same time being funny, slapstick, and overall cartoony through out it, and I think we have the intelligence to know that there isn't an absolute with these things.

 

We are dealing with fiction people. It doesn't have rules, but it has principles, and of those principles is knowing what the fuck you're doing when it comes to writing it. If you wanna have a game about a pink puffball slaying a bleeding angel eye-ball, then go right on ahead, but don't use the argument that it's a cartoon when there are plenty of cartoons out there that do exactly what you say couldn't be done.

 

Or to put it short and sweet into one paragraph:

 

Sonic being a cartoony animal is a statement that adds absolutely nothing to the discussion because it labels cartoony design as being uncredible enough to explore heavy-handed themes when we have tons of successful media that explicitly shows this isn't the case. The Looney Tunes dealt with sex, politics, and race. Tom and Jerry dealt with depression and suicide. Pixar films are Pixar films. Sonic doesn't need to be Inception, sure, but at the same time, SA2 doesn't actually surpass the level of actual maturity of something like Up either, and that film has cartoony-rendered humans, chocolate-eating, ride-giving birds of paradise, and talking dogs that flew biplanes alongside its handlings of miscarriage, death, and living. Cartoony design isn't all that mutually exclusive with heavy-handed themes, and if nothing else it reeks of hypocrisy to oppose darkness and maturity in the Sonic series only on that basis.

Edited May 30, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[WarioBone]

Can I say that my primary concern with people wanting the series to be taken seriously is that several of them are, in fact, referring to a "return to form" to the Shadow/'06 days?

[DarkLight]

Can I say that my primary concern with people wanting the series to be taken seriously is that several of them are, in fact, referring to a "return to form" to the Shadow/'06 days?

 

 

No, I don't think anyone's asking for that here. Just that the current stories could have more meat to them that's all.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Can I say that my primary concern with people wanting the series to be taken seriously is that several of them are, in fact, referring to a "return to form" to the Shadow/'06 days?

Believe me when I say that most of us are actually on your side when it comes to wanting to return to Shadow or 06 as far as plot goes.

 

But aside from that, there is no absolute to these things. No one wants a plot that is so serious it makes an unintentional parody of itself, but that's not saying we don't want some tension and edginess in the games either. It says a lot that we have more people willing to jump to the defense of games like SA2 than we do ShTH when both of those games are fairly dark; one of them happened to do dark right, the other failed.

Edited May 30, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Can I say that my primary concern with people wanting the series to be taken seriously is that several of them are, in fact, referring to a "return to form" to the Shadow/'06 days?

 

Well the "concern" has become the equivalent of paranoia in more extreme circles, to the point that Sonic is being forcibly railroaded from doing anything remotely interesting for the sake of his "cartoonyness" and the few things that he is allowed to try are thrown away for cheap gags. At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if everything devolves to dialogue like:

 

Sonic: I'm WAY PAST COOL!"

Eggman: I'm SO EVIL! (Get's blown over by a gust of wind) and NOW I AM DEAD!"

Friends: "We are so shitty!"

 

And it's going to be met with thunderous applause...

Edited May 30, 2013 by 743-E.D. Missile

[WarioBone]

I'm all aboard the Paper Mario train, trust me.  If Sonic can pull of that kind of complexity and "darkness" without it being...well...all "Sonicy" about it, more power to the writers who can make it happen.

 

I'd honestly like to see what the current writers are capable of; although the last time a mainly comedic/throwaway writing team got ahold of a serious story and tried to do it seriously, we got Other M.

[Celestia]

Sonic: I'm WAY PAST COOL!"

Eggman: I'm SO EVIL! (Get's blown over by a gust of wind) and NOW I AM DEAD!"

Friends: "We are so shitty!"

As far as the general gaming public is concerned, this sums up every Sonic story since Adventure, anyway. Especially the """""""shitty friends"""""" part.

[Ducktor Naldush]

Can I say that my primary concern with people wanting the series to be taken seriously is that several of them are, in fact, referring to a "return to form" to the Shadow/'06 days?

Well, now I understand your point of view. Eh. Once, I don't remember when, I was talking with a guy on the net about Shadow The Hedgehog, and it turned out that his only major complaint about the game was the fact that "stages like the Casino Park level and the Haunted Castle looked too childish", the Casino level being my favourite level in the game. I can relate to that. It's just that, nowadays, stories in Sonic games are... not really there. And I would really like an engaging story for them. Alongside a good gameplay, that is.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Nald From Never Lake

[Nepenthe]

Can I say that my primary concern with people wanting the series to be taken seriously is that several of them are, in fact, referring to a "return to form" to the Shadow/'06 days?

 

That's a fair point, and clearly Sonic Team won't be taking pointers from them, like...ever...but the seething, near-blind hate around these two games does make it more difficult than it should be to actually argue, "Hey, maybe Sonic should have stories where some exciting shit happens, like a Disney or Dreamworks movie," especially when the ruling consensus is that "Sonic is a cartoon and should act as such," by which people really mean "cartoons are for kids so nothing "bad" can happen in them." It's literally the exact same arguments people in the actual animation industry have attempted to do away with since Disney had the audacity to make Snow White, so to see these arguments and sentiments brought up over and over again over the years frustrates me and leads me into ranting. The nuance of the issue is just gone most of the time, so I pull my hair out and slam on my keyboard. Meh. xP

[Vertekins]

Can I say that my primary concern with people wanting the series to be taken seriously is that several of them are, in fact, referring to a "return to form" to the Shadow/'06 days?

 

The funny thing is, whilst ShTH and '06 had all the maturity of a a child who tries to act edgy by riding his dad's motorcycle, Colours and Generations are so immature or so devoid of exposition that it's near-impossible to take them seriously either or put much value in a lot of it's portrayals of characters; Note - A lot. Not all.

 

ShTH and '06 aren't a return to form for the series but then neither are Colours or Generations and they are, IMO, not tje route to take regarding the series' narratives because they espouse much compelling character depiction and multidimensional stories in favor of extreme basicness and inhibitingly basic characterization.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

As far as the general gaming public is concerned, this sums up every Sonic story since Adventure, anyway. Especially the """""""shitty friends"""""" part.

I'm saying that's what the paranoid fans want it to be turned into because they can't grasp anything else due to said paranoia, and thus everyone will lose in the end.

Edited May 30, 2013 by 743-E.D. Missile

[Komodin]

I'd honestly like to see what the current writers are capable of; although the last time a mainly comedic/throwaway writing team got ahold of a serious story and tried to do it seriously, we got Other M.

 

Wario, let's be fair now -- those writers certainly weren't the only major problem with Other M's mediocrely executed story.

[WarioBone]

Wario, let's be fair now -- those writers certainly weren't the only major problem with Other M's mediocrely executed story.

 

No no, I know that.

 

But Team Ninja had never handled a serious story before then, with characters who were pre-established and so on.

 

They had a lot on their plate and they really shouldn't have had that responsibility foisted onto them just because Sakamoto liked Ninja Gaiden.  (I mean seriously, dude.)

Edited May 30, 2013 by Ham-Sellin' Wario

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's literally the exact same arguments people in the actual animation industry have attempted to do away with since Disney had the audacity to make Snow White, so to see these arguments and sentiments brought up over and over again over the years frustrates me and leads me into ranting. The nuance of the issue is just gone most of the time, so I pull my hair out and slam on my keyboard. Meh. xP

And you'd think Bambi's mom getting shot, Mufasa getting killed, and all sorts of other things that have happened in Disney movies would have gotten that message across, but NOOOOO~!

[Gabz Girl]

I have to agree that ever since Sonic Colours the plot for Sonic games has been...lightweight, too lightweight. Maybe not as bad as Sonic Heroes, but it still is too simple a story. And too much cheesy humour!

 

I actually would love to see Sonic go the route of a Paper Mario game! Something with an epic story yet with some funny moments thrown in as well to suit its cartoony look. Hey, maybe something like the comic book Bone which is, and I quote "as sweeping as the Lord of the Rings cycle, but much funnier." If anyone has actually seen or read this comic, you'll know what I mean.

 

If only SEGA was willing to actually go in this direction. And that's my current pet peeve...SEGA is always playing it safe nowadays. True they seem to be going in the right direction when it concerns gameplay but the story needs to be more akin to Unleashed, with better script. 

[WarioBone]

In Sega's defense, I'd much rather have a very fun game with a shitty plot than a bad game with a great story (if I was presented with the option of only those two extremes, of course).

 

I hate to be "that guy", but they are video games.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

In Sega's defense, I'd much rather have a very fun game with a shitty plot than a bad game with a great story (if I was presented with the option of only those two extremes, of course).

 

I hate to be "that guy", but they are video games.

Well being video games doesn't mean it should be an either/or and that we should have to sacrifice either one delivering us entertainment. While playing the game will always be given the higher priority, that shouldn't have to come at a cost of having a great story.

 

So I'd rather have a very fun game with a great story.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

In Sega's defense, I'd much rather have a very fun game with a shitty plot than a bad game with a great story (if I was presented with the option of only those two extremes, of course).

 

I hate to be "that guy", but they are video games.

"Statement about this being the reason video games will never be seen as anything except toys"

[Vertekins]

I'd rather have a game that has both good gameplay, art direction and level design and a good story that lives up to it's potential, gives the characters room for development and facilitates an interesting portrayal. But doesn't everyone?

 

Bad game, good story and Good game, bad story don't have to be mutually exclusive. The games should strike a happy medium of the two and shouldn't be constrained because some fans claim that Sonic game stories should take a backseat regarding exposition, complexity and characterization in favor of good gameplay. It's so arse-backwards and is a constraint on games potential all-round.

 

It's a problem the Sonic series has had. The Storybook games had the most truimphant portrayal of Sonic in the series and had great stories but were lacking in the gameplay department. Colours and Generations had good gameplay but were seriously lacking in the story and characterization department. I can't wait to see a Sonic game that nails both.

[WarioBone]

Like I said, that's what I'd pick if I had to pick one of the two extremes.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'd rather it not have to be extremes in the first place. =/

[WarioBone]

>:V But I was just saying, if I had to pick, I would take gameplay over story.  Of course no one wants it to be those two extremes, I just value having a fun game to play over having a game with a great story.

[Nepenthe]

The point is, there's no need for extremes. The only reason that dichotomy exists is to actively justify bad storytelling as okay. Well, it's not. There's literally no excuse for bad storytelling in video games, and to say otherwise is harmful to the industry. I mean, since the game and story departments of major companies work in tandem with one another (they don't call the entire programming department over to work on cut scenes or anything. It's linear development; there's no trade-off of resources between the story and game departments), there's literally no downside to advocating for better storytelling. People who don't care about storytelling aren't actively being ignored with either good or bad storytelling. People who do care are when anyone tries to argue otherwise.