Sonic-related pet peeves?

[WarioBone]

I always assumed that Shadow and '06 were dark because there weren't a lot of bright colors

 

Badum-tsh.

 

'Nother pet-peeve is that style of writing from before the team we have now.  I don't know what it is about the old writing team that rubs me the wrong way, but there's just this...blandness and sense of trying too hard.  Of course, the writers we have now aren't especially engaging either, but the characters feel much more human than some awful marionettes.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Ham-Sellin' Wario

[Kuzu]

I don't agree that the superficiality of a work's overall quality changes the elements that help define its tone. Every work has objective traits (realistic, morose lighting vs. colorful cel shading, comedic dialogue vs. serious dialogue, upbeat music vs. downtrodden music, death vs. cartoon violence, etc.) and a context surrounding them that sets a general tone we can easily identify, and this is regardless of whether or not the work is well done. These things aren't superficial- at least inherently. They actively help set the stage. Again, it's like saying a red painting isn't red because the painting itself is bad. I'd argue the painting being bad may be true, but it's still a red painting, and the red doesn't lose any of its authenticity because the painting it creates is bad. Similarly, Heroes is lighthearted, even in all of its badness, just as Sonic 06 and ShtH are dark in their badness. 

 

Or, as Dio put it, there's a difference between darkness and maturity.

 

It doesn't change the tone itself, but it can definitely change someone's perception of it. When you're make something lighthearted or dark, you're writing in a way to convey a certain feeling towards your audience. When something is dark you're trying to show the implications of a specific event, and the consequences surrounding it. When those elements are poorly handled, your audience doesn't think its "dark" anymore, but almost laughable.

 

The tone of something is just as defined by the writing as it is by the artstyle.

[Vertekins]

'Nother pet-peeve is that style of writing from before the team we have now.  I don't know what it is about the old writing team that rubs me the wrong way, but there's just this...blandness and sense of trying too hard.  Of course, the writers we have now aren't especially engaging either, but the characters feel much more human than some awful marionettes.

 

If there's anything Sonic writing-wise that comes off to me personally as "trying too hard", it's;

 

- Sonic Colours' "humor" except for Eggman's PA announcements

- Sonic Generations' absolute fixation with simpleness and lack of exposition to the detriment of the story as well as character development

- Archie Sonic's fixation with maudlin emotion, cheap storytelling that makes a vain and failed attempts to tug at my heartstrings because of the lack of subtlety and lack of understanding that there is more to negative emotions than crying.

- SONIC '06's and Shadow attempts at maturity.

 

As I've said many times before, Unleashed had a pretty good grasp of Sonic's characterization and made him act believably and endearingly but the narrative largely failed to monopolize on the potential of the Werehog in regards to it and it gets very nothing-y in the middle. The two Storybook games are the platinum standard of Sonic game storytelling and characterization that I've seen in the games to date to me personally  and have such an incredibly great grasp of what makes Sonic....Sonic whilst having stories that aren't convoluted or plothole-ridden and some truly great characters (Shahra, Caliburn, Merlina, Erazor etc.)

 

Colours had it's up's such as a splendidly-portrayed Eggman and some downright awesome bromance but it's story and characterization made me want more.

[Jolt_TH]

New peeve, people who are convinced that Lost World is some sort of remake of Xtreme. It may take some ideas from it but its an entirely new game, I'm getting a little tired of people treating it like this rather than its own game

[Mr. Taxi]

New peeve, people who are convinced that Lost World is some sort of remake of Xtreme. It may take some ideas from it but its an entirely new game, I'm getting a little tired of people treating it like this rather than its own game

 

It's impossible to recreate a game that never existed.

[WarioBone]

It's impossible to recreate a game that never existed.

 

Well, it was never released, but it certainly existed.

 

Now whether it's worth recreating is another story, because the game looked like ass.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Ham-Sellin' Wario

[Mr. Taxi]

As far as I know, the game never got past the stage we know of: two or three stages without any sort of objective, binding element or collision detection parameters and a boss battle with a gigantic Metal Sonic.

 

EDIT: Even though the game would never be worth recreating, since it was a mess Sonic Adventure could never dream of becoming, the concept of a 3D stage that gives priority to the stage you're running at over the abilities you're using to do so is interesting and by all means should be revived.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Palas

[WarioBone]

As far as I know, the game never got past the stage we know of: two or three stages without any sort of objective, binding element or collision detection parameters and a boss battle with a gigantic Metal Sonic.

 

Clearly the idea of having no collision detection was carried over into '06 and Adventure DX, and the gigantic Metal Sonic into Heroes.  The game may not have been released, but it's LEGACY OF HORRIBLE IDEAS LIVES ON.

[Wraith]

 

 

This is the GUN Commander from 2005's Shadow the Hedgehog.

 

 

This is Elise from Sonic The Hedgehog 2006

 

  

 

This is Wentos from Sonic Unleashed in 2008.

 

 

These are VASTLY different NPC human designs across 3 different games, one after another. Not a single sign of consistency in site.

 

So, yeah, I'm curious. Why do people so often criticize Lost World for not looking "Sonicy" when even Sonic Team themselves never actually laid down a consistent style for the series yet..? What does "Sonicy" even mean?

[WarioBone]

So, yeah, I'm curious. Why do people so often criticize Lost World for not looking "Sonicy" when even Sonic Team themselves never actually laid down a consistent style for the series yet..? What does "Sonicy" even mean?

 

Basically it's not what they want the game to look like, thus it isn't Sonicy.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Basically it's not what they want the game to look like, thus it isn't Sonicy.

That pretty much sums it up with many of these people: "I don't like it, therefore it's not Sonic."

[Pawn]

Do we really need this intolerance of different opinions? If you are referring to the comments about art style, then it's understandable that people may feel this way. The point is that Sonic's world has always been very detailed, giving it some sense of realism. How they executed this approach over the years may have differed, but this simplistic design is something entirely new.

 

Like I said in the Lost World forum, I don't hate this new style, but it does feel less 'Sonicy' as you put it. It looks great in the screenshots of half-pipes and cylindrical paths, but terrain made of cuboids makes me think more of Mario, even if they are covered in the checkerboard design. I'm not really a fan of the simplified badniks, but at the same time I'm happy to see the old school critters popping out of them again. It's basically a mixed bag for me.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Pawn

[Diogenes]

If your criteria for not being Sonicy is "has blocks" then yeah I am going to call that silly.

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

It makes me think of sonic extreme personaly

[WarioBone]

but it does feel less 'Sonicy' as you put it

 

But there's no definition of the word "Sonicy".  Sonic's designs have been all over the place over the course of his life, from hyper-realistic Unleashed stuff to tweaked-out Sonic CD, Sonic's design is about as consistent as a bipolar woman on her period.

 

When Sonic Adventure first came out, it wasn't "Sonicy" either, because it looked too real.  Shadow wasn't because it was too dark.  '06 because it was too ugly.  Unleashed because it was too PIxar.

 

Lost World doesn't look any less Sonic than anything else in the series because the series has barely kept the same design for more than two games in a row at any given time.

[Pawn]

If your criteria for not being Sonicy is "has blocks" then yeah I am going to call that silly.

 

My post contained more than 'has blocks' as an explanation. The simplistic style on top of the blockier parts made me think of Mario in one of the screenshots. The rest of my post wasn't about blocks, but lack of detail.

 

 

But there's no definition of the word "Sonicy".  Sonic's designs have been all over the place over the course of his life, from hyper-realistic Unleashed stuff to tweaked-out Sonic CD, Sonic's design is about as consistent as a bipolar woman on her period.

 

When Sonic Adventure first came out, it wasn't "Sonicy" either, because it looked too real.  Shadow wasn't because it was too dark.  '06 because it was too ugly.  Unleashed because it was too PIxar.

 

Lost World doesn't look any less Sonic than anything else in the series because the series has barely kept the same design for more than two games in a row at any given time.

 

The simpler shapes and lack of detail are what make it unusual.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Pawn

[Kuzu]

That still doesn't explain how its not "Sonicy" detailed environments aren't exactly what defined the series.

 

When you get down to it, what's "Sonicy" is entirely subjective at this point.

[Celestia]

There was a point where it wasn't subjective?

[Nepenthe]

"Sonic" may not have a concrete definition, but I'd argue there's nonetheless a general pervading image about what does and doesn't fit the franchise, thus it can be used in such subjective contexts. I mean, if we're really going to start arguing that we can't say something doesn't feel like "Sonic," then it makes any and all of the bitching about dark stories that just happened in this thread and has happened elsewhere null and void on this basis. If "Sonic" has no definition, then Sonic 06 is technically in as much of the spirit of the franchise as any classic or lighthearted game. So yeah.

[Pawn]

That still doesn't explain how its not "Sonicy" detailed environments aren't exactly what defined the series.

 

When you get down to it, what's "Sonicy" is entirely subjective at this point.

 

They are a part of what defined the series, yes. I'm not trying to argue that this is suddenly going to turn Sonic into something that it isn't, but it's a big change that, understandably, not everyone is going to be immediately on board with.

[Kuzu]

They are a part of what defined the series, yes. I'm not trying to argue that this is suddenly going to turn Sonic into something that it isn't, but it's a big change that, understandably, not everyone is going to be immediately on board with.

 

But "detailed environments" are kinda broad when it comes to something that defines a series. When you ask someone what they think when you say Sonic, I'm pretty sure detailed environments isn't one of them because its something to be expected whenever we play a game.

[Nepenthe]

Are "detailed environments" actually expected? Lost Worlds has significantly less detail from what we've seen of it thus far than the modern games, and most people don't seem to have a problem with it. If anything, I would think the pervading idea the layman has about Sonic is "bright, geometric patterns and forms."

[Vertekins]

But "detailed environments" are kinda broad when it comes to something that defines a series. When you ask someone what they think when you say Sonic, I'm pretty sure detailed environments isn't one of them because its something to be expected whenever we play a game.

 

But the Sonic series has pretty much always been known to have scenery porn. Back in '91, the sheer level of detail in, say, Green Hill Zone in Sonic 1 blew players away especially when it was compared to it's rivals.

[Pawn]

But "detailed environments" are kinda broad when it comes to something that defines a series. When you ask someone what they think when you say Sonic, I'm pretty sure detailed environments isn't one of them because its something to be expected whenever we play a game.

 

I'd argue that some would think of it. The series' environments have always been highly praised for their detail by critics and fans alike.

 

Are "detailed environments" actually expected? Lost Worlds has significantly less detail from what we've seen of it thus far than the modern games, and most people don't seem to have a problem with it. If anything, I would think the pervading idea the layman has about Sonic is "bright, geometric patterns and forms."

 

For the layman, that is likely true. For me though, it's a pretty big departure to abandon almost all sense of realism after 20 years, assuming that this is permanent.

[Kuzu]

But the Sonic series has pretty much always been known to have scenery porn. Back in '91, the sheer level of detail in, say, Green Hill Zone in Sonic 1 blew players away especially when it was compared to it's rivals.

 

 

I'd argue that some would think of it. The series' environments have always been highly praised for their detail by critics and fans alike.

 

 

 

Well  haven't seen anyone outright state that the series has "abandoned" its roots. The exact opposite in fact, so I think there's a minority here.

 

Lost World may not be as detailed as the previous games, but that doesn't mean its not appealing to look at.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu