Sonic-related pet peeves?

[Kuzu]

Dammit, I missed the good discussion.

 

 

 

So uh...fuck it, I'll beat the horse to death; 

 

When people ask for more "plot" in Sonic games, they aren't asking for writing akin to Shadow & 06. I don't get why people automatically assume the statement "We want a more structured plot" and interpret it as "LOL I WANT MOAR SHADO AND PRINCESSES". Even if there are people out there who want games like those two(And I question your sanity on why you would want writing akin to those games), I think it goes without saying that Sonic Team will never try to emulate anything from those games. forever.

 

When most people say they want more "plot" they want a game that gives the player a reason to care about what's going on. A plot that utilizes its characters in a meaningful way and fleshes them out. A plot that uses its established plot threads. A competent plot is what we want. It doesn't have to be particularly complex or profound just something that I can fucking care about. The current writing for the games is arguably as bad as it was between Heroes to 06, just for the opposite reasons: Whereas those games were overly wrought and pretentious, the current games are boring and inconsequential. We went from too much shit happening to barely any shit happening at all. 

[Celestia]

I want more Princesses!

What, did you think I was talking about Elise?! Pfft!

 

Anyway, I wouldn't mind a more serious story in future Sonic games. You can remain lighthearted and still have stuff like tension and even sad moments or nightmare fuel. Plenty of cartoons get away with that stuff when the plot calls for it, so why not Sonic?

Edited May 30, 2013 by Celestia

[Vertekins]

Anyway, I wouldn't mind a more serious story in future Sonic games. You can remain lighthearted and still have stuff like tension and even sad moments or nightmare fuel. Plenty of cartoons get away with that stuff when the plot calls for it, so why not Sonic?

 

You mean the Storybook games? Yea I know but those games stories and tones were great so...

 

They had a pretty good and balanced mix of light hearted elements, sad moments and tension. And it's not like any one of those tones dominated to the detriment of the story as a whole or the characters.

 

SatSR had Sonic's and Shahra's casual banter during levels including Shahra's teasing of Sonic's swimming inability, her faint-heartedness and her disbelief at Sonic's propensity for hyperactivity and non-seriousness. It had nightmare fuel in the form of everything about Alf Layla Wa-Layla and the implications of the method in which Sonic gets shot of Erazor and it had tension in the way of the Ifrit burning away pages and Sonic's mortality haunting him, he's dying and he knows it. It also had the subtle yet dark element of Shahra being in an emotionally abusive relationship and her inability to escape from that relationship until Sonic takes it upon himself to sever that relationship for her because she simply doesn't have the strength to do so herself.

 

SatBK has Sonic enter a world that has customs and rules of honor that he's expected to abide by and eschewing them in order to follow his own heart and his own sense of right and wrong which is so in-line with his established characterization. It explores the merits of sticking up for ones ideals and the value of living life to the full despite inevitability of the end.

 

God I miss the time when this series had some level of profoundness to it's characters and plots and facilitated them showing greater dimension

[Kuzu]

My only problems with the storybook games is that they tend to over idealize Sonic. I understand he's the "Chosen Hero" in both cases, and Secret Rings is better at balancing him than Black Knight. But in Black Knight, Sonic literally shows up, gets a sword, beats up every single Knight of the Round with nary difficulty, and manages to get a power up to beat the final boss because he's just that awesome apparently. On top of everything else, he's also a king. 

 

I get it game, Sonic is the hero and better than everyone you don't need to beat it over my head with it. Other than that tho, they're fine games with probably the most competent storytelling in the series.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[SenEDDtor Missile]

My only problems with the storybook games is that they tend to over idealize Sonic. I understand he's the "Chosen Hero" in both cases, and Secret Rings is better at balancing him than Black Knight. But in Black Knight, Sonic literally shows up, gets a sword, beats up every single Knight of the Round with nary difficulty, and manages to get a power up to beat the final boss because he's just that awesome apparently. On top of everything else, he's also a king. 

 

I get it game, Sonic is the hero and better than everyone you don't need to beat it over my head with it. Other than that tho, they're fine games with probably the most competent storytelling in the series.

Power Fantasy: always comes packed in with the protagonist for most games. It's not any less annoying for Sonics case, but just saying.

Edited May 31, 2013 by 743-E.D. Missile

[Soniman]

This is why I prefer Sonic in gams like Colors, or hell even SA1 and to an extent SA2. He's just a regular guy who has flaws, jokes around, and just likes to go on adventures and save people.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

This is why I prefer Sonic in gams like Colors, or hell even SA1 and to an extent SA2. He's just a regular guy who has flaws, jokes around, and just likes to go on adventures and save people.

Not really. Most of his flaws, much like before, still don't hinder him in any way, so until that happens, he's just the same Sonic in a cheesy jokester skin.

[Vertekins]

My only problems with the storybook games is that they tend to over idealize Sonic. I understand he's the "Chosen Hero" in both cases, and Secret Rings is better at balancing him than Black Knight. But in Black Knight, Sonic literally shows up, gets a sword, beats up every single Knight of the Round with nary difficulty, and manages to get a power up to beat the final boss because he's just that awesome apparently. On top of everything else, he's also a king. 

 

I get it game, Sonic is the hero and better than everyone you don't need to beat it over my head with it. Other than that tho, they're fine games with probably the most competent storytelling in the series.

 

I agree that those two games do make it crystal clear that Sonic is in the right and do put across his more positive and so-called goody two-shoe attributes of selflessness and compassion but then he does have his vices, most particularly in Black Knight in which he blames Caliburn for his sloppy swordsmanship instead of himself, is very obstinate and aggressive, even making the first move to strike Merlina down where she stood when she revealed her motives and is occasionally prone to being short-tempered or whiny i.e Complaining about getting dirty or wet, butting heads with Caliburn and trading insults.

[Kuzu]

This is why I prefer Sonic in gams like Colors, or hell even SA1 and to an extent SA2. He's just a regular guy who has flaws, jokes around, and just likes to go on adventures and save people.

Eh...Honestly, the writing for this series has never been to my ideal, and probably never will be.

 

I agree that those two games do make it crystal clear that Sonic is in the right and do put across his more positive and so-called goody two-shoe attributes of selflessness and compassion but then he does have his vices, most particularly in Black Knight in which he blames Caliburn for his sloppy swordsmanship instead of himself, is very obstinate and aggressive, even making the first move to strike Merlina down where she stood when she revealed her motives and is occasionally prone to being short-tempered or whiny i.e Complaining about getting dirty or wet, butting heads with Caliburn and trading insults.

 

True, but its mostly just meaningless squabbling really. It doesn't really lead anywhere.

 

Its ironic. For all of the flaws that we've pointed out of Colors & Generations, its almost my ideal representation of the characters. They're over exaggerated personalities are brought to attention more and are made fun of. Tails calling Sonic out on talking to a dead robot, and their "bet" are probably two of my favorite scenes of the franchise for how "human" they feel.

 

 

I don't want the characters to be exaggerated caricatures of themselves, but I also don't want them idealized to an absurd degree. I just want balance.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I agree that those two games do make it crystal clear that Sonic is in the right and do put across his more positive and so-called goody two-shoe attributes of selflessness and compassion but then he does have his vices, most particularly in Black Knight in which he blames Caliburn for his sloppy swordsmanship instead of himself, is very obstinate and aggressive, even making the first move to strike Merlina down where she stood when she revealed her motives and is occasionally prone to being short-tempered or whiny i.e Complaining about getting dirty or wet, butting heads with Caliburn and trading insults.

While true, it still doesn't really do enough to actually be a hindrance to him, since he still somehow manages to get by.

[scourgeandfionafan123]

Biggest Issue: Sega making Sonic fight Eggman 22 years in a row and not finding a new villain for Sonic to fight. 

[Vertekins]

Biggest Issue: Sega making Sonic fight Eggman 22 years in a row and not finding a new villain for Sonic to fight. 

 

Eggman is as important as Sonic is. He's an eternal and enduring part of the franchise and I don't see why that ought to drastically change.

 

Besides, it's not as if Sonic fights Eggman 100% of the time. Not only is he often sidelined by his monster-lackeys but Sonic has thought villains other than him throughout the entirety of games without Eggman in sight. The Storybook games are a good example of this.

[NiGHTS]

Well honestly the story books seem to be the only games that Eggman isn't apart of... would be nice to not FIGHT eggman, (though it seems in Sonic Lost World, they say Sonic will team up with Eggman.) So I wouldn't know...

[sonfan1984]

Biggest Issue: Sega making Sonic fight Eggman 22 years in a row and not finding a new villain for Sonic to fight. 

 

Isn't that what they're doing for Sonic Lost World?

[Nepenthe]

Isn't that what they're doing for Sonic Lost World?

I'm not convinced Eggman isn't going to try to screw Sonic over anyway.

[Meta77]

My favorite stories in the series were unleashed and 06. Maybe shadow to. Sure the games did not do that well but yet they were deeper than some games like generations and from the looks of it Lost World. both these titles look geared to a much younger crowd. the others had more dark tones to them and pushed to a more mature group yet cause of the gameplay they gripped over it.

[Diogenes]

My favorite stories in the series were unleashed and 06. Maybe shadow to. Sure the games did not do that well but yet they were deeper than some games like generations and from the looks of it Lost World. both these titles look geared to a much younger crowd. the others had more dark tones to them and pushed to a more mature group yet cause of the gameplay they gripped over it.

Actually '06 and ShtH are pretty much designed for children. They are what a child might think maturity is.

[Kuzu]

My favorite stories in the series were unleashed and 06. Maybe shadow to. Sure the games did not do that well but yet they were deeper than some games like generations and from the looks of it Lost World. both these titles look geared to a much younger crowd. the others had more dark tones to them and pushed to a more mature group yet cause of the gameplay they gripped over it.

 

Man, Shadow & 06 are as dark as teletubbies. People only say they're dark for extremely superficial reasons and never exactly bothered to look at the games beyond those reasons.

[Nepenthe]

Both games have dark aesthetics and foreboding/tragic sequences of events. To say they're not dark on account of neither were handled well is kind of ridiculous. It's like saying a painting made entirely out of red paint isn't red because it was done by a three-year old.

[Diogenes]

It's important to remember that "dark" and "mature" are two different things.

[Kuzu]

Both games have dark aesthetics and foreboding/tragic sequences of events. To say they're not dark on account of neither were handled well is kind of ridiculous. It's like saying a painting made entirely out of red paint isn't red because it was done by a three-year old.

 

Like I said, they're dark on a superficial level.

[Nepenthe]

I don't think art style and story events are superficial when it comes to measuring how dark something is. Heroes isn't "not lighthearted" or "lighthearted for superficial reasons" because it's a piece of crap. It's a piece of crap that also happens to be lighthearted.

[Kuzu]

Artstyle and story become superficial when they're handled poorly. I never said that the games aren't dark, just that its the kind of "darkness" that lacks any substance and subtly to be taken seriously.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[Nepenthe]

Artstyle and story become superficial when they're handled poorly. I never said that the games aren't dark, just that its the kind of "darkness" that lacks any substance and subtly to be taken seriously.

 

I don't agree that the superficiality of a work's overall quality changes the elements that help define its tone. Every work has objective traits (realistic, morose lighting vs. colorful cel shading, comedic dialogue vs. serious dialogue, upbeat music vs. downtrodden music, death vs. cartoon violence, etc.) and a context surrounding them that sets a general tone we can easily identify, and this is regardless of whether or not the work is well done. These things aren't superficial- at least inherently. They actively help set the stage. Again, it's like saying a red painting isn't red because the painting itself is bad. I'd argue the painting being bad may be true, but it's still a red painting, and the red doesn't lose any of its authenticity because the painting it creates is bad. Similarly, Heroes is lighthearted, even in all of its badness, just as Sonic 06 and ShtH are dark in their badness. 

 

Or, as Dio put it, there's a difference between darkness and maturity.

[Meta77]

Sorry was on youtube putting fav anime openings in a playlist.

The storys were dark for several reasons more so than generations and a few other sonic games for many levels.

Sonic being killed by mephiles

Perfect Dark Gais transformation and sacrifice of chip *holy crap that transformation*

Perfect Choas Destorying Station Square and possibly killing people when flooding the city.

Dr eggman flipping out during the egg dragon fight.

Shadow and Black Doom pretty much planning to kill everyone on the planet and shadow going along till he can figure out :who: he is.

There are a ton of elements from these games that show a more mature. darkend storyline. to say they are not is just trying to turn a blind eye cause the main hero is sonic and some do not want to see him mature or enjoy his joking style from colors and generations. Truth be told if anything I wish sega would mix it up. Like games in story like colors and generations for nintendo systems and storys like 06/unleashed//shadow/ more towards the next gen systems.

 

 

but to each their own. Everyone has opions.