Pokemon Anime General Discussion

[Soniman]

@Discoid

 

You know, I would have just find it non-believe able if Ash won the Kanto League.

 

You can't go from completely noobish to the best ever in a single region, through Kanto Ash got more than half of his badges through pity or non-battle reasons. Not to mention he never bothered to train his Pokemon, when he got a shiny new Charizard he didn't even try to get along with him or train him so he could listen, he just kept him locked up in his Pokeball to never cause trouble.

 

So when he arrived at the League (which there were a few episodes leading up to where Ash was told to train but he specifically found reasons not to) and Charizard costed him the match because he didn't listen to him (which was entirely his fault), because the main point of that was despite making it into the League, it was established throughout this and the Indigo League season that he still had a long way to go before becoming the Pokemon Master. Should he have one at Johto? Maybe. Hoeen? Probably. Sinnoh? Defintley. But on his first try? Nah.

 

Maybe Red's character was handled differently but in Ash's case I wouldn't buy it.

 

Because that goal has never been clearly defined in series, which go's back to my question of what is a pokemon master even supposed to be at this point? I almost get the feeling the writers use that as an excuse to mask the fact that they have no clear goal for Ash and will just have him wander aimlessly.

 

Characters like Lance, Cynthia, and Aldder are pretty clearly seen as Pokemon Masters, and that's the general position that Ash wants to strive for.

[Tails spin]

@Discoid

 

You know, I would have just find it non-believe able if Ash won the Kanto League.

 

You can't go from completely noobish to the best ever in a single region, through Kanto Ash got more than half of his badges through pity or non-battle reasons. Not to mention he never bothered to train his Pokemon, when he got a shiny new Charizard he didn't even try to get along with him or train him so he could listen, he just kept him locked up in his Pokeball to never cause trouble.

 

So when he arrived at the League (which there were a few episodes leading up to where Ash was told to train but he specifically found reasons not to) and Charizard costed him the match because he didn't listen to him (which was entirely his fault), because the main point of that was despite making it into the League, it was established throughout this and the Indigo League season that he still had a long way to go before becoming the Pokemon Master. Should he have one at Johto? Maybe. Hoeen? Probably. Sinnoh? Defintley. But on his first try? Nah.

 

Maybe Red's character was handled differently but in Ash's case I wouldn't buy it.

 

 

 

 

Characters like Lance, Cynthia, and Aldder are pretty clearly seen as Pokemon Masters, and that's the general position that Ash wants to strive for.

But you have to think of this as well. I believe that the show was original plotted for a solo season, which is why Ash was given pitty badges. If the show was never popular it begs the question if the writers might have given Ash the league win to close out the series.

[Kuzu]

The writers don't give a shit about Ash's ambitions. The anime is designed specifically so that each season is catered for a new brand of viewers, due to a wealth of kids getting into the games for the first time for each generation that comes out with absolutely no regard to what came before it. However, the anime keeps Ash, Pikachu, and Team Rocket around for brand recognition I suppose. Ash has no character because new viewers are never given the indication that they ought to care about what happened in previous episodes.

 

The Pokémon anime is little more than a marketing vehicle due to the popularity of the franchise, although it's inoffensive as a children's show because the average viewer is going to move onto better things once they lose interest. Obviously it would require effort to give the show as captivating a narrative as Pokémon Adventures. The anime isn't worth the time of most older audiences, for better or for worse.

 

Though I do agree that Ash is shit. I never even liked him as a kid. Team Rocket always stole the show for me.

 

Yea, this is the sad, unfortunate truth. The Anime is simply marketing for the games and nothing more hence why it has such a formulaic approach(although BW tried to mix it up here and there). Its popularity basically means the writers have no reason to try, and probably won't do much.

 

And I started to hate Team Rocket after a while because their antics got just as formulaic as Ash's after a while, and was like that for a LOOOONNNG time.

 

Characters like Lance, Cynthia, and Aldder are pretty clearly seen as Pokemon Masters, and that's the general position that Ash wants to strive for.

 

Dude was offered a Frontier Brain position, but he turned it down because...

Edited April 20, 2013 by Not!Dante

[Soniman]

Dude was offered a Frontier Brain position, but he turned it down because...

 

I think it was because he wanted to go on more adventure and being a Frontier Brain =/= being a Pokemon Master

[Sami]

@Discoid

 

You know, I would have just find it non-believe able if Ash won the Kanto League.

 

You can't go from completely noobish to the best ever in a single region, through Kanto Ash got more than half of his badges through pity or non-battle reasons. Not to mention he never bothered to train his Pokemon, when he got a shiny new Charizard he didn't even try to get along with him or train him so he could listen, he just kept him locked up in his Pokeball to never cause trouble.

 

So when he arrived at the League (which there were a few episodes leading up to where Ash was told to train but he specifically found reasons not to) and Charizard costed him the match because he didn't listen to him (which was entirely his fault), because the main point of that was despite making it into the League, it was established throughout this and the Indigo League season that he still had a long way to go before becoming the Pokemon Master. Should he have one at Johto? Maybe. Hoeen? Probably. Sinnoh? Defintley. But on his first try? Nah.

 

Maybe Red's character was handled differently but in Ash's case I wouldn't buy it.

 

 

 

 

Characters like Lance, Cynthia, and Aldder are pretty clearly seen as Pokemon Masters, and that's the general position that Ash wants to strive for.

 

Ash and Red are both based on the same character, though. If one could do it, the other should be able to as well.

 

You know what? I'm very curious what your stance on this would be if you'd have read the manga. If you've got time, just read up to the end of the Red and Blue Arc. Trust me, it's good. If you like the anime then you'll love this.

 

And yeah, I'd say calling the anime a glorified commercial as opposed to Pokemon Adventure's actual story with actual characters is a fair argument.

[Amomynous]

Mewtwo was technically always genderless to the feminine voice isn't an extreme stretch, but I do wonder if this is the same individual were dealing with here, I know new artists have come in since the other movies but it looks different.(The cloning process was heavily implied to have produced prototypes,namely ditto) Possibly Metwo inherited Mew's transforming powers and used them to gain feminine attributes?

Edited April 20, 2013 by Amomynous

[Tails spin]

I think it was because he wanted to go on more adventure and being a Frontier Brain =/= being a Pokemon Master

I think that Frontier Brains are ranked higher than Gym Leaders but of equal or slightly less that an Elite Four member.

[Kuzu]

I think it was because he wanted to go on more adventure and being a Frontier Brain =/= being a Pokemon Master

 

You listed official positions that other characters hold as a way of saying what a Pokemon master is, then you said Ash wants to be a Pokemon Master. A frontier brain is an official position within the Pokemon and that would effectively make a him a Pokemon Master.

 

Conclusion: the writers are full of shit.

[Tails spin]

Mewtwo was technically always genderless to the feminine voice isn't an extreme stretch, but I do wonder if this is the same individual were dealing with here, I know new artists have come in since the other movies but it looks different. Possibly Metwo inherited Mew's transforming powers and used them to gain feminine attributes?

The anime only has one Mewtwo. The only other one was an illusion. Its simply a case of the original actor is not available and the writers think that the people who actually know the difference have moved on.

[Soniman]

And yeah, I'd say calling the anime a glorified commercial as opposed to Pokemon Adventure's actual story with actual characters is a fair argument.

 

If were just not including Ash, characters like May, Gary, Paul, Dawn, Brock, Iris, hell even Misty all have character and character arcs. They also get focus and development and such, Ash may be the protagonist but they're are other decently develop characters hovering around him to.

 

You listed official positions that other characters hold as a way of saying what a Pokemon master is, then you said Ash wants to be a Pokemon Master. A frontier brain is an official position within the Pokemon and that would effectively make a him a Pokemon Master.

Conclusion: the writers are full of shit.

 

That's the equivalent of saying that just because you have a position in the Government, you're automatically the President.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Soniman

[Candescence]

For the record, at the end of each arc of Adventures, that arc's protagonists generally achieve great things (Red won the Pokemon League tournament in a climatic battle over Green, for example), but they also often reappear in later arcs, depending, and there's even arcs based on rereleases, such as Yellow, Emerald, Platinum, FRLF, HGSS, etc. The FRLG and GGSS arcs in particular featured the return of old protagonists with new designs, putting their character development to use while also being able to develop further.

Not to mention Red was a vastly more developed character than Ash ever was. Hell, he ever got the FRLG arc. And, briefly, he commands Mewtwo in battle against Giovanni's Deoxys. Which was an absolutely amazing fight, btw.

Giovanni: Welcome, Red and Mewtwo! How does it feel, looking down on me from where you're standing?
Red: What's that mean?!
Giovanni: You're on higher ground... Because the only one who has bested me in battle... Is none other than you, Red! I wish to make our positions clear... It is only fitting for me, as the challenger, to look up at you on lower ground. I stand here not as ex-gym leader of Viridian City, nor Team Rocket leader... But simply a trainer without any titles! Now... Come and face me, champion!

 
Oh, yeah, did I mention Giovanni in Adventures was amazingly badass? He makes his anime counterpart look lame by comparison.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Shirou Emiya

[Sean]

Yeah the thing I like about the Pokémon manga (even though I haven't read much of it) is that it seems to focus way more on the trainers and their development over the creatures themselves. Dunno about you guys but I've always been more of a fan of the human characters in the series. I have plenty of favorite human characters in the games, but I struggle to think of what would constitute as my all-time favorite Pokémon. I really want to read through it in its entirety one of these days because it sounds a lot like my ideal alternative take on the Pokémon universe. Yellow in particular seems like a total cutie.

[Kuzu]

That's the equivalent of saying that just because you have a position in the Government, you're automatically the President.

 

 

You're seriously at grasping at straws here; This is what you said:

 

 

Characters like Lance, Cynthia, and Aldder are pretty clearly seen as Pokemon Masters, and that's the general position that Ash wants to strive for.

 

 

This is what you described what a Pokemon Master is in the Anime. I responded by saying that he was offered a position as a Frontier Brain, which is a position comparable to the ones you just listed that describe a Pokemon Master. So, going by this, Ash being a Frontier Brain would have effectively made him a Pokemon Master but then you said that a Frontier Brain apparently isn't a Pokemon Master. So, this goes back to my first question: What the hell is a Pokemon Master supposed to be if its apparently not an official position with the Pokemon League?

Edited April 20, 2013 by Not!Dante

[Sami]

Hm. Actually, after rereading that fight between Red and Blue, I really want to analyze and compare.

 

Can someone point me toward the best fight between Ash and Gary?

[Kuzu]

Yeah the thing I like about the Pokémon manga (even though I haven't read much of it) is that it seems to focus way more on the trainers and their development over the creatures themselves. Dunno about you guys but I've always been more of a fan of the human characters in the series. I have plenty of favorite human characters in the games, but I struggle to think of what would constitute as my all-time favorite Pokémon. I really want to read through it in its entirety one of these days because it sounds a lot like my ideal alternative take on the Pokémon universe. Yellow in particular seems like a total cutie.

 

I prefer a mix of both honestly; a mix of character for the humans and pokemon alike, it makes their interactions more relatable. Its why I like watching fan Nuzlocke runs and the personalities the writers develop for their team.

[Spin Attaxx]

Hm. Actually, after rereading that fight between Red and Blue, I really want to analyze and compare.

 

Can someone point me toward the best fight between Ash and Gary?

Probably the Johto League fight.

[Ferno]

Hm. Actually, after rereading that fight between Red and Blue, I really want to analyze and compare.

 

Can someone point me toward the best fight between Ash and Gary?

 

That'd probably be their battle at the Silver Conference.

[Kuzu]

Hm. Actually, after rereading that fight between Red and Blue, I really want to analyze and compare.

 

Can someone point me toward the best fight between Ash and Gary?

 

They only had one full battle, and it was in the Johto Silver Conference. I believe it was episode 265.

 

EDIT: Nope, 271-272, two parter.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Not!Dante

[Soniman]

You're seriously at grasping at straws here; This is what you said:

 

 

This is what you described what a Pokemon Master is in the Anime. I responded by saying that he was offered a position as a Frontier Brain, which is a position comparable to the ones you just listed that describe a Pokemon Master. So, going by this, Ash being a Frontier Brain would have effectively made him a Pokemon Master but then you said that a Frontier Brain apparently isn't a Pokemon Master. So, this goes back to my first question: What the fuck  is a Pokemon Master supposed to be if its apparently not an official position with the Pokemon League?

 

 

Except you have no basis in assuming that a Frontier Brain is comparable to a Pokemon Master. Should we include Gym Leaders as Pokemon masters as well? Since they also hold an official position in the league?? There is a Pokemon Master for each region, and those people have to hold onto their title because the established Elite Four are those who have a shot of becoming the next Pokemon Master of their respective region and challenge the Pokemon Masters for their title (like the Sinnoh Bug Elite Four Trainer did with Cynthia).

 

 

 

 

Can someone point me toward the best fight between Ash and Gary?

 

You mean the full Johto League 6 vs 6 match that was actually pretty good?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w45HOdQjzkI

 

23:45

Edited April 20, 2013 by Soniman

[Tails spin]

Hm. Actually, after rereading that fight between Red and Blue, I really want to analyze and compare.

 

Can someone point me toward the best fight between Ash and Gary?

There was only like three. The first was Pikachu vs. Eevee (forgettable) Their league battle ( Best), and Pikachu Vs. Electrivire ( eh).

[Sean]

The phrase Pokémon Master doesn't even fucking mean anything.

 

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pok%C3%A9mon_Master

 

It's just a term that the show (and some of the early games, I think) spouts to entice viewers into thinking he's trying to achieve something that is greater than it actually is. Saying that the show is about "Ash trying to become a Pokémon Master" is a lot more appealing than "Ash and friends walk around aimlessly." Like "Gotta catch 'em all," it's just another marketing catchphrase.

 

Which is why once again Ash's ambitions amount to jack shit other than to keep viewers interested in watching for as long as their attention spans allow them to. It even explicitly states this in the rep's statement.

[Spin Attaxx]

I think it's safe to assume "Pokémon Master" means "carrot dangling above donkey".

 

Let's be honest, this is the truth.

[Tails spin]

The term pokemon master like most have said is a throwaway word now adays. they give this term to champions of only a single region now a days.

[Kuzu]

Except you have no basis in assuming that a Frontier Brain is comparable to a Pokemon Master. Should we include Gym Leaders as Pokemon masters as well? Since they also hold an official position in the league?? There is a Pokemon Master for each region, and those people have to hold onto their title because the established Elite Four are those who have a shot of becoming the next Pokemon Master of their respective region and challenge the Pokemon Masters for their title (like the Sinnoh Bug Elite Four Trainer did with Cynthia).

 

 

 

So then tell me why has Ash not challenged any of these "Pokemon Masters" if its his goal to be one? What has he done to pursue this?

 

This entire argument is moot anyway because Sean confirmed what I already believed: The writers don't know what the hell a Pokemon Master is and just made it up to give Ash an excuse to go travel.

[Amomynous]

Twist: Ash Learns there's no such thing as a Pokemon master.