Pokemon Anime General Discussion

[Tails spin]

Golem used Magnitude on Charizard.

 

This fight is off to a lovely start.

spoiler alert. Charizard survives to battle Blastoise.

[Sami]

"Charizard! Burn the field!"

 

Meanwhile Blastoise stands completely still. Gary makes no move at all. Everyone's just watching him do this going "durrr I wonder what his strategy is lol".

[Tails spin]

"Charizard! Burn the field!"

 

Meanwhile Blastoise stands completely still. Gary makes no move at all. Everyone's just watching him do this going "durrr I wonder what his strategy is lol".

Best part of the episode. Ash is considered a genius

[Kuzu]

The DBZ syndrome its called Blaze.

 

Same result:"What's that, our hero is down for the count but watch as he finds some hidden resolve from nowhere and completely ass rapes his opponent"

[Soniman]

How is it out of nowhere when it had a perfectly legitimate reason to activate when it did?

[buba]

Same result:"What's that, our hero is down for the count but watch as he finds some hidden resolve from nowhere and completely ass rapes his opponent"

 

What do you want then? Its an ability every fire starter has.

It not like they decided to introduce that in the precise moment he was going to lose without any explanation.

Paul shoud have expected it.

[Tails spin]

What do you want then? Its an ability every fire starter has.

It not like they decided to introduce that in the precise moment he was going to lose without any explanation.

Paul shoud have expected it.

Not only that but it was Chimchar's many development since it first appeared.

[Kuzu]

How is it out of nowhere when it had a perfectly legitimate reason to activate when it did?

Because its a pretty convenient way to turn a battle around he was otherwise losing.

 

What do you want then? Its an ability every fire starter has.

It not like they decided to introduce that in the precise moment he was going to lose without any explanation.

Paul shoud have expected it.

 

You're right, Paul should have expected it, but he didn't. I'm not against the ability itself, just how it was used as a Dues Ex Machina to help Infernape win.

[Tails spin]

Because its a pretty convenient way to turn a battle around he was otherwise losing.

 

 

You're right, Paul should have expected it, but he didn't. I'm not against the ability itself, just how it was used as a Dues Ex Machina to help Infernape win.

If I recall I don't think that Paul ever saw Infernape master the ability I think he still thought that he wasn't able to master it yet

[Soniman]

Because its a pretty convenient way to turn a battle around he was otherwise losing.

 

 

You're right, Paul should have expected it, but he didn't. I'm not against the ability itself, just how it was used as a Dues Ex Machina to help Infernape win.

So we complain about how Ash always loses but when he does legitimately win it's okay to pull a really weak "deus ex machina" card? Okay then.

 

As Shy Guy said Blaze was a major factor of Chimchar's character that was built up throghout the entire series, it doesn't "come out of nowhere" and therefore is in no way a Deus Ex Machina.

 

Not to mention Ash wasn't losing by that wide of a margin anyway, they both only had one Pokemon left, the Blaze was just a way of making Ash's victory a ton more exiting and fulfilling that a simple flamethrower or something. Think of it as a flashy finishing move.

[Kuzu]

 

So we complain about how Ash always loses but when he does legitimately win it's okay to pull a really weak "deus ex machina" card? Okay then.

 

 

 

Patronizing me isn't helping your argument.

 

 

As Shy Guy said Blaze was a major factor of Chimchar's character that was built up throghout the entire series, it doesn't "come out of nowhere" and therefore is in no way a Deus Ex Machina.

I just said I wasn't against the ability itself and more on how it was used in that fight. And yes, it is a Dues Ex Machina because of how convenient it helps Infernape win. I never said it was bad writing, just that I personally didn't like it.

 

 

 

Not to mention Ash wasn't losing by that wide of a margin anyway, they both only had one Pokemon left, the Blaze was just a way of making Ash's victory a ton more exiting and fulfilling that a simple flamethrower or something. Think of it as a flashy finishing move.

 

So this means I have to like it? From a DBZ Rule of Cool standpoint, its fine, but from my own objective standpoint, its not very good strategy.

 

 

I see it as necessary evil because you're right, a simple flamethrower wouldn't be very exciting to watch, but it still annoys the hell out of me when I see it.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Not!Dante

[buba]

Infernape was "forced" to use it.

Whenever a fire starter has less than or equal to ⅓ of its maximum HP remaining the ability activates itself. Thats how it works.

The writters worked with that, its not something they decided to do for him to win in the last moment, its something that happens naturally with any fire starter.

[Tails spin]

Infernape was "forced" to use it.

Whenever a fire starter has less than or equal to ⅓ of its maximum HP remaining the ability activates itself. Thats how it works.

The writters worked with that, its not something they decided to do for him to win in the last moment, its something that happens naturally with any fire starter.

But we have to look at it in the other way as well. There are times when pokemon like fire starter, water starters and grass starters are near the point of fainting and the ability does not activate. I for one haven't seen Pignite, Snivy, or Oshawott activiate their abilities. Let alone I don't think Overgrown as been shown in the anime. And Torrent I believe was used by Barry's Empoleon.

[buba]

But we have to look at it in the other way as well. There are times when pokemon like fire starter, water starters and grass starters are near the point of fainting and the ability does not activate. I for one haven't seen Pignite, Snivy, or Oshawott activiate their abilities. Let alone I don't think Overgrown as been shown in the anime. And Torrent I believe was used by Barry's Empoleon.

 

Overgrow was already used in the anime by Ash's Grovyle/Sceptile.

 

 

I don't know about the Unova Pokémon since I never really followed the BW series.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Tmsp

[Sami]

Okay, done.

I... wow. Okay. Where to begin.

Alright, time to compare.

*spoilered for size*

For starters, this is just a preference thing, but I prefer the way the battle begins in the manga. In the anime, it's basically a coin toss so whoever has to go first is at an instant disadvantage. That's how lots of sports games start though as far as I know, so technically that's fair. In the manga, the two trainers pick their Pokemon, keep them in the ball, and then drop them and run into position. It's completely luck based and you have to predict what your opponents first Pokemon will be.

Not really anything significant, but it's a nice little distinction in my opinion.

So Blue has the advantage for the moment and uses Fire Spin, then tries to follow up with a Fire Punch. Red predicted this and has Venusaur use a point blank Poison Powder to blind and choke Charizard before he can attack, following up with a quick Razer Leaf to stun him long enough for a switch.

While Charizard is still dazed, Snorlax starts charging his Mega Punch, but taking Snorlax's slow speed into account, Blue switches into Machamp who moves quickly enough to grab Snorlax's arms. Red tries to counter with a Mega Kick, but predicting he would do this, Blue has Machamp grab Snorlax's legs as well, as the two begin their own little wrestling match. Machamp lifts him up into the air and then slams him into the ground, shattering the ground in the arena. Blue then follows up with a Karate Chop, and Red, anticipating this, has Snorlax use Harden so he can break Machamp's hand and have one less arm to worry about.

Turns out Blue anticipated this and had Machamp use Karate Chop on the shattered ground next to Snorlax, using the terrain as a giant lever to send Snorlax flying into the air, out of bounds.

Rather than just let him fall, however, Red has Snorlax maneuver in the air and use Double Edge on Machamp, which makes Machamp dizzy. I mean, think about it. It's a punch from a Pokemon that weighs half a ton, that just fell out of the sky. Red uses Blue's move against him, and gets a powerful hit in as a result.

This prompts Professor Oak to note how Red has progressed and developed not only as a trainer, but as a person. He's not as rash as he used to be, and he's much better at thinking logically on the spot than he used to be; a trait that he picked up from Blue, who was good at this from the beginning.

Now let's switch over to the anime for a moment and see how that fight begins, before going back to Adventures.

Gary sends out Nidoqueen and Ash counters with a Tauros. Alright, let's see what his strategy is...

Gary leads with a Rock Smash, but Tauros just pushes through the rocks with brute force and goes for a horn attack. Nidoqueen grabs its horns and counters with a point blank Hyper Beam. One Hit KO.

Welp. Back to the manga I guess to see how the next match goes.

Despite Machamp still having a third of his health, Blue recognizes that he needs some rest and decides to take him out of the battle. He's already poisoned and dizzy as it is. This is the same guy who didn't even notice a sick baby Kangaskhan earlier on in the story, which was something Red called him out on and got really upset about. Blue sends out Ninetails and Red decides to take Snorlax out of the fight as well, remembering their first battle, when Blue specifically told him to "know his limits".

Again, Oak notes that Blue has learned a strategy from Red; while Red was known to be rash and stick to his guns previously, he was also able to tell the condition a Pokemon's in by looking at it, whereas Blue had to use his Pokedex for statistics and data. Now, Blue can do the same thing, being able to tell what condition Machamp was in just by checking up on him.

Character development, how 'bout that shit.

Continuing like this would take ages though, so I'll just skip to the finale for both battles now. I've already posted my thoughts on the Ash vs. Gary battle throughout the past two pages anyway.

Blue sends out Charizard as Red is considering his next move. Right as Red throws the ball, however, Blue attacks and uses a Fire Blast, which hits Poliwrath the second it's released, knocking it up into the air and hitting the ceiling, causing it to spurt out a ton of water into the air. Red sends out Pikachu, but Blue uses another Fire Blast, sending it flying into the air up with Poliwrath. Finally, Red sends out Venusaur, catching everyone by surprise. Before Charizard can attack, however, Venusaur grabs him with its vines and lifts it up into the air. Blue scoffs at this and is about to have Charizard break loose, when he notices the thundercloud forming up above.

Turns out that after Fire Blast knocked Poliwrath into the air, Red decided to take a gambit and sent Pikachu on purpose. The super-heated water droplets that Poliwrath released condensed to form a cloud, and Pikachu charged it with electricity. Then, he used Venusaur's vines to serve as a lightning rod, lifting Charizard up into the air right underneath the cloud. Lightning strikes, Charizard is hit full blast, and the battle is over when Charizard and Blue are both knocked out. Seconds later, when Red is declared the winner, he and his Pokemon fall over as well, showing just how close the fight really was.

Alright, now the anime.

Blastoise vs. Charizard. Alright, it's the same type scenario, but instead of it being a Fire vs. Grass advantage, this time it's a Water vs. Fire advantage. Let's see what kinds of strategy are used here.

Charizard gets hit by a Hydro Pump, but takes the hit and flies away without taking too much damage. Gary keeps using Hydro Pump, but Charizard keeps dodging the attacks and isn't able to get in to attack without taking a Hydro Pump to the face. So then Ash comes up with a genius strategy: burn the rocky terrain. Gary is dumbfounded by this strategy, and does absolutely nothing to stop Charizard from flying around at a leisurely pace, lighting the field on fire and heating it up immensely. Blastoise is now immobilized, and after the damage is done, Gary tries to reverse it by using a Hydro Pump to cool the field down; this only releases steam and makes it impossible to see, however.

When the steam clears, the two Pokemon are locked up in close-range combat. Blastoise doesn't have enough room to use Hydro Pump, and Charizard's Dragon Rage misses. Ash commands Charizard to use a Seismic Toss, and the attack knocks Blastoise out in a single hit.

So. What's the difference here?

For starters, the battle in the manga can basically be described as a gambit pileup. The two trainers clearly know what they're doing, and are constantly trying to predict each others moves and outsmart each other, with both of them getting some really good strategies in.

Red is able to win by using Blue's own moves against him, but Blue's attacks had done so much damage and Red's own strategies were so risky that even he couldn't take anymore and also faints mere seconds after Blue does.

Ash and Gary? The entire battle is just a collection of moments where one Pokemon dodges the other's attack and counters with a stronger one. Moves that should knock the opponent out (fire spin followed by a point blank flamethrower on Heracross) don't, and attacks that shouldn't (Seismic Toss on Blastoise) do, for whatever reason.

It's not logical, it's not strategic, and it isn't entertaining as a result. On top of that, the fight between Red and Blue served as an excellent display for their character development, showing what the two of them learned from each other not only as trainers, but also as people in general.

Again, the fight between Ash and Gary doesn't do this. There's no indication of the two learning from each other at all, and the two of them carry on acting as they always have throughout the series. Their strategies haven't evolved, and they haven't developed as characters. It's just a fight, and it doesn't really mean anything in the long run.

I'll watch the Paul vs. Ash fight later. My wrist kind of hurts from writing so much, haha. But there's my point. The characters in the manga are better, and the battles in the manga are better. It's clear that the author actually cares about the series and stopped to think about what he was doing, an impression I don't get from the anime at all.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Discoid

[Soniman]

Yep, don't really disagree here.

 

The only real peice of character develop comes from Gary not being a total douchenozzle to Ash anymore and respecting his skills as a Pokemon trainer. Other than it there was not much else, you're just supposed to be enthralled by the fact that Ash and Gary finally have a match together.

[Sami]

So I just watched the Paul vs. Ash fight, and it was... actually pretty legit. 

 

It started out kind of weak "____! Use ____!" "Dodge it ____! Now counter it with a _____!", but once Paul and Ash started using their actual strategies, things quickly took a huge turn for the better. I love clever shit like what was used in this battle.

 

Using Dig and then Fire Blast to consume the Toxic Spikes and attack a Pokemon in midair? Pretty clever. Kudos, Ash.

 

Using Thunder on the ground to create an explosion, with the shower of rocks being used to beat up the opponent's Pokemon? Awesome. Nice job, Paul.

 

Using Iron Tail to create a gust of wind that'll blow the hail away? Good idea. You're doing alright, Ash.

 

etc.

 

I mean, it wasn't genius or anything, but it was actually pretty good. I enjoyed watching it, and not once did I stop and think "oh my god are you fucking kidding me" like I was every two seconds during the Ash vs. Gary fight. 

 

On top of that, the commentary by Brock towards the end about Paul and Ash being two sides of the same coin, and fighting tooth and nail in order to win what had essentially became a battle of ideals was interesting. They unfortunately didn't capitalize on it for some extra room for character development and analysis, but the idea was there, and I liked that.

 

Is it fair to call this the best fight in the whole show? That's the vibe I'm getting so far. It's not saying much at all, but hey, it's something.

 

Damn shame this has to be the exception instead of the rule; shows to me that at least one person working on the show actually does know how to come up with engaging, interesting battles. Yet for whatever reason this doesn't ever happen.

[Soniman]

Unlike Gary and Ash, this was a rivalry that had constant focus throughout the series to that point. An exact fight like this occurred earlier but ended in Paul's favor and a defeated Ash had to learn and grow form it to get where he was at that point in order to defeat Paul.

 

It's moments like these where I don't agree with the census that claim DP to be the worst series (personally I think that goes to Johto easily) but what can you do.

[Tails spin]

So I just watched the Paul vs. Ash fight, and it was... actually pretty legit. 

 

It started out kind of weak "____! Use ____!" "Dodge it ____! Now counter it with a _____!", but once Paul and Ash started using their actual strategies, things quickly took a huge turn for the better. I love clever shit like what was used in this battle.

 

Using Dig and then Fire Blast to consume the Toxic Spikes and attack a Pokemon in midair? Pretty clever. Kudos, Ash.

 

Using Thunder on the ground to create an explosion, with the shower of rocks being used to beat up the opponent's Pokemon? Awesome. Nice job, Paul.

 

Using Iron Tail to create a gust of wind that'll blow the hail away? Good idea. You're doing alright, Ash.

 

etc.

 

I mean, it wasn't genius or anything, but it was actually pretty good. I enjoyed watching it, and not once did I stop and think "oh my god are you fucking kidding me" like I was every two seconds during the Ash vs. Gary fight. 

 

On top of that, the commentary by Brock towards the end about Paul and Ash being two sides of the same coin, and fighting tooth and nail in order to win what had essentially became a battle of ideals was interesting. They unfortunately didn't capitalize on it for some extra room for character development and analysis, but the idea was there, and I liked that.

 

Is it fair to call this the best fight in the whole show? That's the vibe I'm getting so far. It's not saying much at all, but hey, it's something.

 

Damn shame this has to be the exception instead of the rule; shows to me that at least one person working on the show actually does know how to come up with engaging, interesting battles. Yet for whatever reason this doesn't ever happen.

The battle of ideals was touched at various stages in the whole DP saga. This battle was just the climax of said battle. Look into their first full battle at Snowpoint City. As a matter of fact look into the whole Snowpoint city arc. Paul's method of training has to do with an encounter with Brandon the Froniter brain.

[Kuzu]

Unlike Gary and Ash, this was a rivalry that had constant focus throughout the series to that point. An exact fight like this occurred earlier but ended in Paul's favor and a defeated Ash had to learn and grow form it to get where he was at that point in order to defeat Paul.

 

It's moments like these where I don't agree with the census that claim DP to be the worst series (personally I think that goes to Johto easily) but what can you do.

 

In hindsight, Johto is pretty bad. I didn't really hate DP, just things about it.

[Soniman]

In hindsight, Johto is pretty bad. I didn't really hate DP, just things about it.

 

I like the theme songs, it gives me good memories of the series which aren't even there in the first place.

I think I only really like the Pokemon League and some of the Gym Battles, and maybe the odd filler episode (especially the ones where Todd Snap returns).

Edited April 21, 2013 by Soniman

[Tails spin]

I like the theme songs, it gives me good memories of the series which aren't even there in the first place.

I think I only really like the Pokemon League and some of the Gym Battles, and maybe the odd filler episode (especially the ones where Todd Snap returns).

The first season was good. The second season dragged way to long with only the Morty Arc being interesting. Master Quest was interesting especially the Whirl Island arc and from phanpy forward.

[Kuzu]

I like the theme songs, it gives me good memories of the series which aren't even there in the first place.

I think I only really like the Pokemon League and some of the Gym Battles, and maybe the odd filler episode (especially the ones where Todd Snap returns).

 

Yea, nostalgia is a powerful thing, but I don't really remember what I particularly loved about it too.

 

 

I'll give the DP era one thing in that the series got a lot better about its battles at that point, shit like Thunder Armor was out and actual strategy was used in the battles, and this carried over to BW. 

[-Robin-]

The music and lyrics are good, though the singer does sound a bit...off, I guess.

Oh look, every single main character ever is in the ending. Needs more endings like that. Oh hai TR Delibird!

Lawl Misty's wearing her Kanto attire. OH SHIT TOGETIC.

WhythefuckisPaulholdinghands.

Where's Tracey's Marill .

Oh hey, Pidgeot's in the final image with EVERYTHING in it.

All in all, a very nostalgic showing. It really gives a "Yep, we're done with Unova now. Sayonara" vibe to it.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Joshua

[buba]

The music and lyrics are good, though the singer does sound a bit...off, I guess.

Oh look, every single main character ever is in the ending. Needs more endings like that. Oh hai TR Delibird!

Lawl Misty's wearing her Kanto attire. OH SHIT TOGETIC.

WhythefuckisPaulholdinghands.

Where's Tracey's Marill .

All in all, a very nostalgic showing. It really gives a "Yep, we're done with Unova now. Sayonara" vibe to it.

 

Corphish instead of Squirtle? They fucked up.

And why does Brock have Onyx? It evolved.

And yeah, this is really nostalgic, but it gives more a "We're done with Pokémon now" vibe with that ending than just Unova.