Tomb Raider - Out 05/03/2013 for X360/PS3/PC

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Haha and also I read multiple comments in this topic about her "moaning", and how she's always been about the "moaning"

and then people are trying to say it's crazy to think that anyone mixes sex and violence as a selling point

[Stacy]

Haha and also I read multiple comments in this topic about her "moaning", and how she's always been about the "moaning"

and then people are trying to say it's crazy to think that anyone mixes sex and violence as a selling point

hahaha fuuuuck

(because I'm sure that in every uncharted preview where they watched the guy litter profanities and carry around a big ass gun, people were really into discussing said characters moaning)

Edited June 2, 2012 by BW199148

[Tornado]

Because for the most part, I assumed they were just joking about the moaning.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And even as a joke, what does that imply?

Exactly.

Edited June 2, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Carbo]

*examples*

Far Cry 3? Really? A guy is being held to hostage and... promptly breaks free and fucking wrecks shit up. Huh.

It's an entirely different bag of chips to roast when we're talking about a girl who never mind the fact has been sexualized far more times than you can count in the past, this time instead being played for the vulnerability card because she's inexperienced. The exploitation fetishism isn't in the violence, but in the psychological interpretation. The idea that the main course of criticism here is the violence is not the main deal. Excessive moaning, posing exploitation, vulnerability and overall weakness on the other hand, is.

Tomb Raider isn't a snuff film, and most other examples, particularly Manhunt, could be attributed to that particular kind of exploitation genre. Saw in particular has never really pushed it's violence into being fetishistic, and I should know seeing how I was a big fan of it for so long.

Oh, wait.

[Tornado]

That people are finding it sexy that she's moaning, battered, and bloodied while trying get out of some place alive?

Is that what you're trying to tell me? Or just that someone thought the moaning alone made it sound like porn?

Edited June 2, 2012 by Tornado

[Nepenthe]

There is a reality to the inherent misogyny and catharsis we get from torture (of both male and females) of horror films and how it and other controversial tropes like it can easily carry over into video games, especially when they're currently being made with a Hollywood attitude in mind. It isn't fair to entirely dismiss that as people stirring up controversy where it doesn't belong; a point can certainly be made here. However, I'm personally giving the developers the benefit of the doubt and won't accuse them of having intentionally meant to sexualize Laura through the use of graphic torture anymore than the developers of Uncharted intentionally implied the inferiority of African and South American natives by using the lost city trope. I think you can say they've avoided that in part because the audience isn't passive here; they're taking control of Laura themselves, and all of the shit she's going to go through is in some subconscious way going to be experienced by the player as primarily negative, and they'll actively be taking steps to avoid any harm. Laura's also a fairly established character, exploitable sure, but probably not to the same extent as some unknown pretty face in a Final Destination movie, which naturally should change the context of how torturing either character would resonate with the average audience.

[Stacy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7n1i2uLOYU&feature=plcp

Watch this for a bit and you'll get what we mean.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

For that joke to even function, the misogynistic link you've been claiming doesn't exist needs to exist. Otherwise the joke isn't even a joke. It's purely random.

Edited June 2, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Tornado]

So then the game's being misogynistic as Sean was saying because people took the moaning sounds and made a joke over them?

Edited June 2, 2012 by Tornado

[Stacy]

I'm watching it, and I'm not exactly understanding what you mean myself...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I didn't say that. I simply said that this statement (and ones like it):

Are demonstrably false. Because it's obvious that the subtext that you were so quick to call ridiculous is there, simply by the jokes people were making before this discussion started that made the same link for the purposes of humor.

The only argument is whether they are doing it intentionally or not; which based on how they developers keep drawing attention to it, the argument can easily be made (as Sean, Carbo and Pelly have done) that it is.

Edited June 2, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[killemoff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7n1i2uLOYU&feature=plcp

Watch this for a bit and you'll get what we mean.

[Stacy]

I honestly didn't laugh at that at all.

Or are you trying to compare and contrast her expression from that game to the newer upcoming game? Besides, I don't think they're saying we're being misogynistic, but that the game is being misogynistic. When you guys are talking about the moaning in this game, I can easily see what they're talking about. But that's not what I'm addressing.

[Pelly <3's U]

It's not that you were trying to be sexist.

It's the very fact that that's a topic of discussion which illustrates the difference in the perception of a male and female in the role of a suffering or torture-esque situation, and how aware of this media developers are.

Which is the pre-requisite to Sean's argument that females are used in such situations to sell with sex (along with violence, which is a wildly popular selling point) because people will perceive the sex in said situations, and it will appeal to them....even if at a fairly deep level.

[Stacy]

It's not that you were trying to be sexist.

It's the very fact that that's a topic of discussion which illustrates the difference in the perception of a male and female in the role of a suffering or torture-esque situation.

Which is the pre-requisite to Sean's argument that females are used in such situations to sell with sex (along with violence, which is a wildly popular selling point) because people will perceive the sex in said situations, and it will appeal to them....even if at a fairly deep level.

When I saw that trailler sex didn't come into my mind I don't know about anbody else. I was playing Tomb Raider before even knew what sex was.

Edited June 2, 2012 by BW199148

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

When I saw that trailler sex didn't come into my mind I don't know about anbody else.

It wasn't coming to my mind either until now, which was probably where the dissonance came from. One side was looking at just the violence, the other was looking at the sex and vulnerability...right?

Edited June 2, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[turbojet]

Uhh except for there's a lot more complexity to the deep sociological attitudes on gender and sexuilization more so than 'swap out a man for this and no one would find it sexist'

You're ignoring the fact that people inherently have culturally defined standards (and perhaps some biologically) to how they perceive men and women, and the differences in not only the perception but also how both are portrayed in their respective roles.

It seems to me your argument is as silly as saying "Well male superheroes are big muscle men in skin tight costumes, so I don't see why people complain that female superheroes are sexualized for the same thing"

Big ass elephant in the room.

Every goddamn time. And yes, people resorted to this argument when character's physical attributes weren't mentioned which is hella ironic right now because the game subverts that to what Lara Croft was before and makes her more realistic.

But since we are pulling feminist theory in this, okay. Let me ask this: how are they supposed to be portrayed then? It is easy to complain about it. Lets put an all knowing woman in there that is impervious from harm and let us present a story from that angle. Get real. We can say that it is obviously being sexist because it's tagline, "Lara suffers" which can be taken that Lara Croft is not the romantic super heroine anymore. Which, by all means, is taking what was the very representation of sexism and giving it character. And lets all ignore that we are taking what looks like the very beginning of the game as what will be happening throughout. Hell, at the end of that trailer, it is Nathan Drake time. But hey, since it is there, it's sexist. Really.Because since there are deep sociological cultural roots and they will always be there, then why bother?

Since you are being coy with Nathan, every single game Nathan gets wet, makes a joke about getting wet, and there is an achievement for getting Nathan Drake wet unnecessarily. Oooooh Fuck.

And even as a joke, what does that imply?

Exactly.

Jacob Taylor is black. Jacob Taylor cheats on female Shepard because he found someone else. Fans noted that Jacob was black and that is why he cheated. Mass Effect 3 is racist. What?

Oh, wait.

We can do this all day.

Edited June 2, 2012 by turbojet

[Nepenthe]

Let's clear up this particular point: No one's accusing anyone here of having thought explicitly of sex while watching that trailer, rather people are describing a well-known phenomena of the sexualization of women in media, even when the situation may not be erotic at all. This phenomena is instantly recognizable, because as Tornado said earlier, we can inherently understand the context of the joke surrounding Laura's (extremely annoying) moaning in the game without anyone having to spell it out. And let's be honest with ourselves, if you replaced her with a male, her moans would then become generic grunts of effort no one would normally ascribe eroticism too.

This idea should not be in contention. The only argument to be had here is whether or not the developers did it and if they did it intentionally.

[Pelly <3's U]

Loool Nathan Drake getting 'wet' isn't the same, I'm sorry it's just not. It's not perceived the same way by the audience and used the same way by the developers.

You can keep trying to shoehorn the same argument over and over again, but apples and oranges will never be anything but apples and oranges.

And the whole why bother thing? It is kind of frustrating to have to deal with this stuff I admit, especially to those who are really trying to actively challenge the standard norms and roles of the media.

But when people actively play into them, I guess most of us have a lot less sympathy.

[Carbo]

We can do this all day.

Yeah you missed the point, wonderful.

[Sean]

Because since there are deep sociological cultural roots and they will always be there, then why bother?

Then I guess this isn't something we're supposed to discuss, ever. Let all of media run its course without us saying a thing, you do know that that's a huge source of frustration for those who are trying to point this stuff out right?

Turbojet I really don't think you get like anything we're saying here at all. We're talking about the social implications of Lara's portrayal and you still think that the "replace women with men and your argument falls apart" retort is going to work, when it just doesn't. The media and audience alike are always going to perceive both genders differently, and the fact of the matter is that all of history has treated both differently.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The only argument to be had here is whether or not the developers did it and if they did it intentionally.

If that's the argument then I seriously doubt they're doing it intentionally. Moaning sounds or no, I find it hard to sexualize someone bleed and surviving in a scenario like this.

I'm not trying to make excuses when I say this, but I'd give it the benefit of the doubt and say that they were trying to make it a point to show the sense of fear in the character and the actor may or may not be overacting her. If they're trying to play into how she's vulnerable, and by all means she's obviously vulnerable, I'd think they'd want to heighten that feel to the player themselves.

[Sean]

If that's the argument then I seriously doubt they're doing it intentionally. Moaning sounds or no, I find it hard to sexualize someone bleed and surviving in a scenario like this.

[Pelly <3's U]

and I'd really have to disagree with CSS considering how this game was marketing and what the trailers were like.....say as compared to something like....I dunno Farcry (big guns, swearing, hot island girl, etc vs moaning, ass up, sexual assault, fear)

Considering how similar this is to almost any scary movie trailer (I actually thought the poster looked like a survival horror/horror movie poster), and how that's effectively one of the major ways /any/ horror film is marketed....I fail to see how there's any 'benefit of the doubt' here.

I doubt many people are going to jerk it to this poster, but that doesn't mean there isn't an inherent sexual exploitation being used to sell this movie (probably in more than the poster alone)