Tomb Raider - Out 05/03/2013 for X360/PS3/PC

[Pelly <3's U]

Nintendoga, I think you're very unfairly coming down on Sean. You want examples of how women are treated in the media? They are in this topic, they are in numerous other topics (there is another topic linked in this very topic where it's been discussed in depth), the 'Dear internet: Grow up' topic is on the first of page of this subforum. There's quite a lot of material out there, and to deride it because you're either not keeping up on the issue or because of one article you didn't like doesn't seem like a very strong basis to start your argument from.

 

And while you said you're not here to talk about feminism, I'm going to assume that's part of the many confusing contradictory things in your post considering it's basically the subject you are debating and refer to many times in your post

 

I'm not sure you've fully read through the topic if you don't understand if Sean or the so called 'detractors of this game' have a problem because the lead is female. Yes, this has a lot to do with Lara being a female  character.....bringing that up like it's a counter point doesn't make sense.

 

Also it's a bit strange to see 'if you don't like something, then what are you doing to change it' being used as a argument against someone who is actively debating the very subject. To me, putting out information and opinions, and trying to actively influence people is taking an active part in trying to change things.

[Autosaver]

Woah, that part where Lara gets impaled is pretty epic. I mean, I know it is pretty violent but woah!

 

It's not like I haven't seen worse.

 

Edit: I hope there's a part where she gets impaled up her ass. Sexy. :3

Edited February 16, 2013 by Autosaver

[Match]

Besides the fact that the game now revolts me, that gameplay looked fucking stupid, so I'm no longer into this. I mean, I'm not saying the death was worse than say, Dead Space, but it's still unnecessary and, as Sean says, serves only to make her seem vulnerable. I'm not saying everyone should be offended by this, but I am, and that's really all that counts towards whether I want this.

 

Before, I said I wanted it to sort of dilute the discussion, but that was before I realized how right you guys are. This game is crossing some serious lines. Sorry if I trivialized it before.

[Autosaver]

@Tails guy

 

As posted, it seems like Tomb Raider always had these gruesome deaths. Go through the video and you'll see tons of trivial ways of dying. Impaled by spikes, burned alive, screams from Lara, etc.

[turbojet]

At Nintendoga,

About this being accurate to how women are presented, I stand by what I said. Women are treated as a spectacle and that scene fits the damn bill. We want Lara to survive but at the same time also go through as much hell as possible because I guess something something about it contributing to her development blah de blah. And no, this would not be the same at all had this game's main character been male. There's no subconscious desire to see men go through suffering as a means of making them vulnerable; we want to see them go through that because if they survive, that just makes them tough manly men and shows how badass they can be !! and if they die then no big deal, doesn't affect us emotionally like the death of a woman would. This is entirely how the audience is expected to react.

So the ideal situation would be that 1. women do not die or at least do not die in a spectacular fashion compared to male characters who do die in spectacular fashion in multiple media, 2. or that we don't empathize with women characters at all and just harden our "subconscious" to not feel for them as we do for men or feel for them as we do for men because we want them to tough, 3. Do have female characters at all, 4 . Treat them better then men 5, and...well fuck it, you know where I'm going. 

 

You make sweeping generalizations here about what an audience feels and before you cite a study, there is no empiricism in the world that could make your study in more or less valid. 

 

You know the difference between cynical and critical? I have not seen any effort but complaints from you people who feel so impassioned about it, critically analyze the problem and offer a bloody solution. So far, every time this discussion about feminism is brought up( a shallow and one sided view of feminism at that) no one here offers a counter solution. They just complain. I've seen you guys champion blatant sexualized things such as Lollipop Chainsaw and somehow this is worse? Really? Don't be a hypocrite.

 

What bothers me is that we act like Lara Croft prior to this reboot(I hate this game too, don't get me wrong) was anything but a blatant tabula rosa. She had no character and any trait applied to her was because she was unnaturally beautiful. "Lara was tough." So? "Lara was a strong character." She had no character. "Lara was intelligent." She was crap archaeologist and a glorified thief. I remember one game that she was somehow world renowned when she was a fucking criminal. She had no depth. She was just a pretty face with an impossible figure who wielded guns akimbo and had acrobats. Guess which made her a video game icon? But somehow that's supposed to be better? A shallow character? It's like me saying that I'd ditch Flavor Flav for Souljah Boy and Chief Keef. There all crap. Both are sexist in their own way and honestly, choosing one brand of sexism over another makes it just as sexist.

Edited February 16, 2013 by turbojet

[Match]

Woah, that part where Lara gets impaled is pretty epic. I mean, I know it is pretty violent but woah!

 

It's not like I haven't seen worse.

 

Edit: I hope there's a part where she gets impaled up her ass. Sexy. :3

 

Alrighty.

 

Well, TWEWY guy, I was going to respond to your other post, but now I have no idea whether to take your argument seriously. Like, are you mocking the people who are responding really positive to it? Or are you just... into this?

 

If you were being serious, then I will just point a large finger at Sean's previous posts. They explain the issue better than I can.

[Autosaver]

Lol. I was serious in the fact that I found her getting stabbed pretty shocking. It won't deter me from buying the game, and it actually looked pretty cool.

 

The butt comment was just something silly thrown in later. It was supposed to be comedy relief and not to be taken seriously. It wasn't made to mock anyone. Sorry if it looked that way.

 

i have weird fetishes ok?

[Nepenthe]

The solution to this game, I feel, would not have been to base the entire thing around cliche, regressive, and potentially sexualized themes of female torture while also saying that the game is somehow progressive in its development of the character or its treatment of female protagonists in general. Indeed, not back-peddling and fueling drama would've been a fine solution, especially since Lara Croft has never been a paragon of a well-treated female character in fiction in the first place. Lollipop Chainsaw is undoubtedly sexualized, and we can certainly talk about that all day long, but I think we can credit the devs for not trying to delude the audience into thinking they're actually making something important or insightful.

[turbojet]

Lol. I was serious in the fact that I found her getting stabbed pretty shocking. It won't deter me from buying the game, and it actually looked pretty cool.

 

The butt comment was just something silly thrown in later. It was supposed to be comedy relief and not to be taken seriously. It wasn't made to mock anyone. Sorry if it looked that way.

 

i have weird fetishes ok?

You kind of...just don't.

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

I've seen you guys champion blatant sexualized things such as Lollipop Chainsaw and somehow this is worse? Really? Don't be a hypocrite.

 

It's actually been argued quite a bit that LC is supposed to be an over-the-top comment on the state of objectification. I normally would say this was stupid, but the game parodies objectification up and down with Nick, the plot revolves around the subject, the game pokes fun at you for engaging in it, and this is from the same guy that made No More Heroes. Whether or not it falls under the whole "don't enjoy this sexy fanservice as we shove it in your face" thing is more up in the air on both sides of the debate.

 

This is a weird thing to defend given I just made fun of this mentality like a page ago, but I guess life's just funny like that sometimes.

Edited February 16, 2013 by New Wraith

[Nintendoga]

 

See what I'm getting from this is that you're implying that all women are treated as shit in media, but I know that's not what you meant. Like I said before, Some women are treated like sex objects in media, however, there is a rising number of women roles being treated just as "equally" as women are in this dat and age. If you want me to I can give you some examples if you'd like.

 

Nobody, at all, has ever said in this topic that they want Lara to go through all this torture. Please quote me with evidence if i am wrong, because I'm sure no matter the views on this game, if given the chance, everyone would much rather choose a different way of Lara gaining character development, rather then being impaled by sticks or nearly being ripped apart by animals and barely surviving.

Now that part about nobody caring emotionally if a Man dies the way a woman would. That's false. There have been several movies, games, books even, where I would be very sad and even at the point of tearing up a bit if the main character ( no matter the gender) died, especially if they're so close to their goal. It doesn't matter the gender, it matters the character itself. If the author/developer creates a character, regardless of it's gender, and manages to get the audience attached to it, you honestly can't say nobody would care even if it was a male. This is entirely dependent on the writing, not the gender.

I am acting extremely passionate in this topic because this is an issue I care about deeply, even if I'm not a woman and thus am not affected by it in a direct way. I am not the victim here, but that doesn't mean I am in no position to criticize what I'm seeing. The only part of my previous posts that I could revise is the part about people not caring about these issues. It's still their choice, and part of it came from the heat of the moment. But telling us that we are overreacting about the whole thing still pisses me off and those people can kindly knock that bullshit off, because it's not helping matters.

You are free to criticize anything, like I said before. and again, people will say "your opinion doesn't matter" to you. But getting mad and telling them to go fuck off is not the best course of action. That is something I've seen kids and teens do on Youtube or 4chan when they're debating. You have to back up your ideals and views, or just simply ignore them.

 

I also find it very ironic how you say this yet the rape scene has not only been brought up in recent posts (except for Pelly's where she told you guys to stop doing it), but also that it's nowhere near the only issue people have with this game. Stop with the generalizations.

What? Are you saying that the rape scene is the only issue people have with this game? Because it's not. People on Gaf, SA, even here on SSMB have posted others reasons for hating this game as well. The rape scene may be the only issue for some people like you, but others also have other reasons for hating this game.

And the reason why I feel that nothing will be changed is because in the game industry, women gamers are treated as a minority and that their views don't matter. It's covered pretty well in the "Dear internet: grow up" topic, far better than I ever can by myself. When we have people saying that our views don't matter, that we shouldn't be as affected by this as we are now, and that ultimately, we're overblowing this as something it isn't, then yeah, that really gives me the impression that nothing will change.

I haven't been in the Dear Internet topic because It's topic matter doesn't interest me. I don't feel like reading through 9 pages of it, so if you could single out some posts and put them here, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, I'll have to read through the topic another time.

I really do believe that your attitude is part of the problem here, especially when you say this topic turning into a feminism discussion is in any way derailing it.

Yes, I do believe that a Tomb Raider topic basically being half about the game and half about feminism, is, as simple as I can say, derailing the topic.

[Conando]

I'll admit to not having followed this game very much at all (it disinterested me right from the beginning, then eventually just disgusted me) so I can't speak for the overall power of her suffering...I was just saying that one spike impalement had much less of an effect on me when compared to something like 

while being ripped in two by the Hive Mind at the end of the first Dead Space.

 

I don't know, I found the Hive Mind scripted death to be over the top and ridiculous due to the fact that they're using those stock ridiculous screams (they're not the Wilhelm but, they're something. I forgot their names). I think what might be bothering people is that this is just another example of the horrid things in the new Tomb Raider reboot. It really seems like some sort of snuff film to me, while Dead Space was straight monster movie.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Wreck-It Ralph

[Autosaver]

I think the difference between Lollipop Chainsaw and Tomb Raider is that Chainsaw takes a huge immature, silly take on females. Tomb Raider on the other hand takes a more serious "character growth" and "engaging" violent path.

 

One is taken seriously, one is not.

[Sean]

Yeah and for every female character who has some empowering role, there are dozens of others who don't and instead are treated as objects written by men in a way that appeals to men. I know I shouldn't be surprised that stuff like Tomb Raider 2013 can exist, but god I've been on the internet for so long maybe for a while I was thinking that attitudes toward women were improving... and then shit like this comes along and all the people telling me that my views don't matter and I'm just complaining dashes my hopes because it seems to more than make up for all the other times those few other works have been making an effort to improve portrayals of women.

I've also gone on length to talk about women suffering in the past, in this very forum and even in this topic. If you're too lazy to go back and read them yourself while still calling my arguments baseless, then that's not my problem.

 

I try to make the effort to talk at length about how I feel about these issues. I have made several posts in this topic and the feminism topic especially. If you seriously believe I'm just "complaining" then I'm honestly wondering what you would consider to be "putting out my ideas" if I haven't already been doing so.

[Nintendoga]

I'll just leave it like that because we can reverse this sentence and say the exact same thing the other way.

I know I shouldn't be surprised that stuff like Tomb Raider 2013 can exist, but god I've been on the internet for so long maybe for a while I was thinking that attitudes toward women were improving... and then shit like this comes along and all the people telling me that my views don't matter and I'm just complaining dashes my hopes because it seems to more than make up for all the other times those few other works have been making an effort to improve portrayals of women.

[Sean]

And if you're gonna let what some dude on a message forum said to you dash your hopes and ideals, then you need to re-think about that stuff because, like I've said before multiple times, not everyone is going to agree with your views or be nice towards them.

 

I'm pretty sure people not agreeing with me and seeing things differently, or just not caring about the issue at hand, is entirely expected for any subject brought up. But when people just flat out tell me that what I'm doing isn't going to amount to anything, then it really makes it hard for me to continue responding. I care extremely deeply about women's issues and I feel that yes, I alone can't change the status quo. But I do what I can by discussing it and trying to understand the matters at hand. I don't try to ignore it because I can't, and when people tell me I'm overreacting, it really frustrates me because it's that exact attitude I fucking hate and find counter-productive.

 

I still don't know where you get the idea that I'm complaining, if you have a better method of how I can put out my views then I'm genuinely curious because I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Pelly <3's U]

No no no no,

If you're too lazy to back up your argument/debate with evidence, then that's not my problem. I don't know how you deal with things, but when I'm doing stuff like this, I'll always willingly go back to find what I need and post if to further back up my claim.

 

To be fair, I myself am a little weary about your claim asking for examples of how women are treated badly in the media....basically because it's not only a topic that's been exhaustively  covered in this topic and elsewhere on the forums, but because it's such a broad question that you could literally just google search it and it's hard to know where to start.

 

And then when you make try to make specific claims, like saying that Sean is wrong for saying that female characters and marketed and exploited through pain because no one in the topic ever said they wanted to see Lara suffer....that was also debated earlier in the topic and Sean gave his argument for it. I can point you a starting point but there's also stuff before and after.

 

But I think my biggest problem is how people are trying to turn this into a 'legitimate complaining vs bitching' thing, and frankly to me this reaks of BS copout to try and derail an argument without actually having to debate any point in the issue at hand. 

 

People get frustrated when shit that's important to them derided or dismissed, telling somebody 'oh it's just the internet get over it' doesn't seem like a more enlightened statement then venting said frustration either. 

 

Also at this point the argument is less about the game itself and more about the reaction surrounding the game. Most people have already decided how they feel about the game, what still continues to personally worry me is when we basically have examples of rape culture in this topic and people not being able to realize that even if they like a game it doesn't mean that it /can't/ have anything that others would see socially wrong with it and want to talk about. 

[turbojet]

Who in the fuck...

 

Since you love comparing black struggle with women struggle....let's have some fun. You remember those old racist Disney cartoons? You know.

know this cartoon is shunned and Disney had to throw it away in a vault? Blacks gained standing and it became totally reprehensible to show this in modern day.  

 

My main problem with your "impassioned" care that it doesn't solve a thing. It doesn't ask why women are being objectified and off-handedly just shuns the entire subject and pretend to live in la la land as if the problem doesn't exist. It is not the media that is the problem. The media presents society through a lens so to tell the writer, designer, artist to stop writing, drawing, designing them a certain way is not doing a damn thing. Something off with society that keeps allowing this to happen. Maybe there should be a dialogue among feminists of different cultures, class, ethnicity, and etc and get a better idea of how you want to be perceived and learn why you aren't being perceived that way. And it has to be better than "white patriarch holding me down!" Maybe...just motherfucking maybe you should try to mend an ideal of sexism that pervades all when it comes to the gender debate instead of arguing over an existential problem that cannot be fixed with the given shape of society.

 

"I'm tired of women getting objectified in the media." I'm tired of women working in sweatshops making the very product of media that you are complaining that is objectifying women. I'm tired of women working with two kids alone and receiving as little aid as possible. I'm tired of women getting snatched off the streets and forced to be prostitutes. I'm tired of women being considered less than the fetuses in their bellies. I'm tired of women being depicted as emotional so when they are in positions to lead, "a woman has to act tough" only for them to be labeled as frigid or a bitch or...both. I'm tired of women in third world countries getting the shaft or the stone for otherwise menial offenses. The question here is what allows all of this to happen? Why is it okay for women to be continually victims of this abuse? They lack the power structure in all things where everything is contributed to.

 

You guys are complaining about result and not doing anything about the problem. You fix these problems in society and maybe you won't have "Scrub Me Mama With A Boogie Beat" or Tomb Raider 2013 anymore.

Edited February 16, 2013 by turbojet

[Sean]

Brilliant. You have just singlehandedly written the single most offensive post I have ever read on this forum.

 

You know what, no matter what I say you're just going to say that I'm complaining. Turbojet, people like you aren't even worth addressing when it comes to this issue.

[Meow]

Also at this point the argument is less about the game itself and more about the reaction surrounding the game. Most people have already decided how they feel about the game, what still continues to personally worry me is when we basically have examples of rape culture in this topic and people not being able to realize that even if they like a game it doesn't mean that it /can't/ have anything that others would see socially wrong with it and want to talk about. 

 

First off when did the quote system get to be SO ANNOYING to use x-x.

Anyway, I agree with this. I am not a shining paragon to the cause as one would simply have to look in my art topic to see haha, but that aside I think the portrayal of women and various ethnic groups are worthy causes to be talked about on a larger scale - even in things we all like. Videogames are a media that I'd assume a good 99% of this board enjoys, but there is always room for criticism and forward thinking in order to make it better.

 

Do I think that all cases need to follow a certain standard? Of course not - I think in the end sometimes the things that offend us most can be brought about in ways in games that make us think about them further but only if that thing is brought about in a genuine way with that intention clearly present through good writing. There are a lot of characters in movies and other media that utterly repulse me but I find them compelling because the writing is strong enough to make me want to know more, or they bring about issues I never thought about before. I just don't think the level of writing games has really elevated itself to that point yet due to a huge hurdle of it being interactive and that is where I think  problems with games like this surface from. A game is interactive and thus I think, though I have no evidence obviously, that when you have something tangible responding to your actions to create certain outcomes it resonates with people a lot more. Sometimes in a good way - other times it is like this where the actions usually hit closer to home.

 

I think the fact that you can control the character and put them in these various gruesome situations over and over and over again should you continue to keep failing is making this a lot worse than it would be if you saw it in a movie where the action generally happens once and that's it - and there are repercussions to reflect it. I think due to the interactivity of the medium we're not quite at a stage where the writing can really handle something quite like this with a genuine heart about it - in a way to actually make you think. All it serves to do is make it seem like the issues at hand are being treated as fun, rather than "hey stop and take a moment to reflect on this".

 

Not every game needs to be an intellectual, insightful piece of work. Personally I feel that would make things boring and I am of the opinion that as long as its in good fun and the developer acknowledges it as fluff and it's not crossing over a ton of crazy lines I'm cool with it. I also think a bit of sexuality is totally cool, on both sides of the fence, in situations like that . But when you go around passing your game off as being something for players to look further into (like this game) when it clearly isn't, I feel it is completely fair game to be calling it out on its issues (and for the record I don't feel this really falls under 'dumb fun' either). There are tons of things I like where the same thing can be said and if someone finds it offensive, who am I to tell them to not be offended over it? If someone feels strongly enough that there is an issue there to be talked about I think its great and should be open for discussion. The only way forward progress can be made is by acknowledging the problems and talking in a civil matter to come up with solutions.

 

While I have no strong opinion of this game either way, I do think that the subject matter contained within is still valuable stuff to be talked about and scrutinized. Even if the game ended up being an amazing title that was incredibly fun to play, it wouldn't change the fact that not everything in the game is going to be acceptable for other people. Again to bring up movies, I can like a movie but not certain scenes - and then  usually after the fact when talking about said movie with other people a healthy debate can be formed over it.

 

I feel its a good thing people are talking about these issues and how they are represented in gaming. I feel it's actually more than just good, I feel it is excellent/awesome/fantastic/fucking RIGHTEOUS because I'd like to see a wider variety of games out there. The dumb fun, and the ones that really make you think.

 

Also I apologize if my post kind of got rambly I can get wordy its a bad habit and I sort of just vomited this out as I went along, originally I wasn't going to post in here over it as to not really get too involved, but this segment of Pelly's post I really agreed with and wanted to add my 5 cents (I can't add 2 cents anymore Canada got rid of the pennies ). So yeah I apologize if it feels like there is no point here and I've wasted anyone's time ^o^;;

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

Who in the fuck...

 

Since you love comparing black struggle with women struggle....let's have some fun. You remember those old racist Disney cartoons? You know.

know this cartoon is shunned and Disney had to throw it away in a vault? Blacks gained standing and it became totally reprehensible to show this in modern day.  

 

My main problem with your "impassioned" care that it doesn't solve a thing. It doesn't ask why women are being objectified and off-handedly just shuns the entire subject and pretend to live in la la land as if the problem doesn't exist. It is not the media that is the problem. The media presents society through a lens so to tell the writer, designer, artist to stop writing, drawing, designing them a certain way is not doing a damn thing. Something off with society that keeps allowing this to happen. Maybe there should be a dialogue among feminists of different cultures, class, ethnicity, and etc and get a better idea of how you want to be perceived and learn why you aren't being perceived that way. And it has to be better than "white patriarch holding me down!" Maybe...just motherfucking maybe you should try to mend an ideal of sexism that pervades all when it comes to the gender debate instead of arguing over an existential problem that cannot be fixed with the given shape of society.

 

"I'm tired of women getting objectified in the media." I'm tired of women working in sweatshops making the very product of media that you are complaining that is objectifying women. I'm tired of women working with two kids alone and receiving as little aid as possible. I'm tired of women getting snatched off the streets and forced to be prostitutes. I'm tired of women being considered less than the fetuses in their bellies. I'm tired of women being depicted as emotional so when they are in positions to lead, "a woman has to act tough" only for them to be labeled as frigid or a bitch or...both. I'm tired of women in third world countries getting the shaft or the stone for otherwise menial offenses. 

 

You guys are complaining about result and not doing anything about the problem. You fix these problems in society and maybe you won't have "Scrub Me Mama With A Boogie Beat" or Tomb Raider 2013 anymore.

 

Children are starving in Africa, so stop complaining about the children starving here!

 

I'm not sure if I follow that sort of logic train. Of course they should go do something about the state of affairs. That doesn't mean they aren't allowed to voice their displeasure at the current state of things. For goodness' sake, I'm tired of people bringing up other problems as if their very existence devalued the problems at hand. Forgive me for saying so comrade, but that's quite absurd. Should other areas of women's rights be fought for? Of course, there's no one saying otherwise. Does this mean this issue deserves to be shafted? I should say no. It doesn't matter if the man in the next room is dying of cancer, this man has lost his arm and deserves to be treated as well.

[Nepenthe]

Considering that cartoon and this game operate on different levels of sheer visceral offensiveness by modern standards, you'd be hardpressed to make any kind of equivalency. A better example would be those old 50s ads where girls and women were blatantly depicted as incompetent at matters beyond the kitchen, hence where they stayed, the types of ads that have largely disappeared as a result of the fight for gender equality. 

 

But let's not pretend that their disappearance was solely the result of legal and social progress magically divorced from the media, and that the ads, nor the cartoon, and subsequently their creators, were never called out. The media is a part of the culture that perpetuates negative stereotypes against minorities and by inherent association is very well is part of the problem. As someone looking to get into the media by way of animation, it offends me that you subsequently divorce me from any responsibility I have to present respectable work and actually stand by it, which is not what the devs are doing. If I'm going to try and present a work that claims to be progressive towards women, I, not only as the creator but as an autonomous person part of the society that is flawed, have the responsibility to do my homework and put in the effort to achieve that goal, nor am I exempt from criticism in perpetuating a problem if I fail to do so.

 

This is pretty much on par with "every single other problem of society is responsible for gun crime except the sheer proliferation of guns."

Edited February 16, 2013 by Nepenthe

[turbojet]

Considering that cartoon and this game operate on different levels of sheer visceral offensiveness by modern standards, you'd be hardpressed to make any kind of equivalency. A better example would be those old 50s ads where girls and women were blatantly depicted as incompetent at matters beyond the kitchen, hence where they stayed, the types of ads that have largely disappeared as a result of the fight for gender equality. 

 

But let's not pretend that their disappearance was solely the result of legal and social progress magically divorced from the media, and that the ads, nor the cartoon, and subsequently their creators, were never called out. The media is a part of the culture that perpetuates negative stereotypes against minorities and by inherent association is very well is part of the problem. As someone looking to get into the media by way of animation, it offends me that you subsequently divorce me from any responsibility I have to present respectable work and actually stand by it, which is not what the devs are doing. If I'm going to try and present a work that claims to be progressive towards women, I, not only as the creator but as an autonomous person part of the society that is flawed, have the responsibility to do my homework and put in the effort to achieve that goal, nor am I exempt from criticism in perpetuating a problem if I fail to do so.

 

This is pretty much on par with "every single other problem of society is responsible for gun crime except the sheer proliferation of guns."

When you frame it like that. The media is part of a culture that perpetuates against a minority cause said minority has no power structure to call them out. I'm not stating that media should not be reprimanded. I'm stating that there is a bigger problem here and it includes the media. I see the media as the result of it. I'm not saying women shouldn't be unhappy with the result. I'm saying that there is something deeper that goes beyond a game disk. 

 

Fucking great.

[Sega DogTagz]

Holy fuck I really wish I had the willpower to not sit down and watch that gruesome death so close to bed time. That's gonna come back to haunt me tonight. yeesh.

[Pelly <3's U]

Turbojet - Now you're just being insulting, and it's hardly worth dignifying with a response, but I'll try and keep it civil.

 

First it's frankly laughable for you to even imply that me or anyone else in this topic hasn't done anything. I can speak for myself and say that I'm active quite a bit for causes that are important to me, and I'm secure enough in that to not even really take what you're saying there as anything more than ignorant bullshit.

 

But do you want to know what I consider the most important thing I've ever done. Educate myself and speak out about things that are important to me. Debate my ideas and refine them and try to continually grow in my own quest for knowledge. Because it has influenced my life and shaped who I want to be as a person, what I want to support, what goals I have, and what I would like my time on this planet to mean.

 

And in doing so I have reached out to others and learned from them, as well as influenced others. And if that's not where social change comes from, I'm not sure what's the solution?

 

As for you bringing up the my comparison of race movements and women's movements, yes it's crazy because women stood up and formed a movement too. And now we as a society see many older works such as Taming of the Shrew as pretty offensive. But I will still continue to compare them and say that both minority races and women still have quite a few disadvantages when it comes to media portrayal (as well as other things), and so to me if that's important to people then yes, they should by all means educate themselves and speak up about it. 

 

I have no idea why you think it doesn't 'ask' why women are being objectified. I think the fact that we've discussed in and out of this topic the whys should clue you in on this, but if it doesn't I can clearly tell you that you're wrong. I have read, and watched, and discussed many factors that contribute to this whether socially, biologically, historically, economically, geographically, etc. There are many theories and many ideas to be argued for, debates to be had over the subject.

 

But I really find it complete bullshit that you think that just because there are other issues in the world, that these issues can't have a time and a place to be discussed. Because I see media issues as very important, I see them as a reflection of our culture as well as what we use to indoctrinate people to the said culture at the same time. You know what my particular interest is? Gender representation in children's media. You know why? Because I figure how we introduce a younger generation to ideas of gender is going to have a huge impact on how they grow up and what their society is like. You know why I would love strong inspiring female characters that are respected and also respect males, and the same vice-versa? Because I want them to inspire the younger generation to grow up and work together to keep solving the future.

 

And as far as these problems being unsolvable because of the 'shape of our society' At least when it comes to games, about half of gamers are women, but few mainstream games are made with that market in mind. And strangely enough we're finding guys can like things that are considered 'girly' or 'girl oriented' with things like MLP and almost half of the audience for Brave being male.....but there is a huge disparity between movies/media being gender orientated specifically for male centered audience. So it certainly seems strange that we almost have a mismatch between our 'shape of society' and media. I'm not going to lie, I think both are male-centric.....but clearly we've come to a point where we have evidence that things are not necessarily as they were once thought to be in the media world, but ideas are slow to change......without any push.

 

So yes I'm glad you care about women's issues, I do too. And that's why I will continue to debate, and call attention too, and talk about them....

 

and not be told I'm not doing shit.