Tomb Raider - Out 05/03/2013 for X360/PS3/PC

[Nepenthe]

When you frame it like that. The media is part of a culture that perpetuates against a minority cause said minority has no power structure to call them out. I'm not stating that media should not be reprimanded. I'm stating that there is a bigger problem here and it includes the media. I see the media as the result of it. I'm not saying women shouldn't be unhappy with the result. I'm saying that there is something deeper that goes beyond a game disk. 

 

Fucking great.

 

I don't think anyone here actually believes that misogyny is solely the result of the media. However, this topic is about one specific example of potential misogyny- the Tomb Raider game- which is naturally going to draw ire towards it, the devs, and the kind of video game culture that allows it to exist merely because that's what's roughly on topic. Let's not obfuscate this specific problem by bringing in the entire realm of feminist issues and automatically assume bad blood on part of those upset by the game simply because they didn't bring those issues up. If anything, we should revive the Feminism topic and discuss the entire subject if merely focusing on the game and the gamer culture surrounding it is really that much of a bother.

[turbojet]

I'm getting sick of this. 

 

I never said it was trivial. I was merely stating that A causes B. You are getting mad at B when A causes it. A being everything in society that allows B media representation, sex slavery, sweat shop working to happen. I don't know what A is, I'm saying lack of influence and power structure in positions of that effects these types of things are the problem. 

 

Okay, Marcus Garvey and Malcolm X, W.E. B. DuBois all said that the black man can never solve the problem of racism as long as they remained economically dependent of the white man and Africa remained in shambles. Where are their navies? Where are their armies? Where is their nation? Where is there culture enough to fit in society?They have no true power structure. No cultural identity. Nothing. And that effects blacks around the world.

 

Women have no power structure to completely rid the status quo. Women get power structure or influence where A can no longer exist thus B can no longer exist. Problem solved.

 

I was not saying that there are bigger problems. I was saying that there is an underline cause that allows this thing(and by extension all those other things) to happen. 

Edited February 16, 2013 by turbojet

[---]

Remember when this was about a video game? 

Edited February 16, 2013 by /_JXJ_\

[Soniman]

Remember when this was about a video game? 

 

Yes, and trivializing everything that's been discussed here isn't helping anything at all.

[Meow]

Remember when this was about a video game? 

 

Really? While I am not generally prone to being mean anymore (generally) and I am sorry if I am being so here, but its that kind of mentality that limits discussion over various issues :/.

Though I wouldn't object to a lot of this perhaps being moved to a different topic for the people who are only interested in the game itself though, even though arguably all of what is being discussed is related to it by this game being the catalyst for the discussion.

[Pelly <3's U]

I understand where the idea comes from, I just think in this case it's not so much A causes B, but A and B influence each other....and so B does have the possible chance to influence A.

 

And I'd actually like to learn more about this in a broader sense turbojet as you have knowledge that far exceeds me there, but as Nepenthe stated this topic is getting way out of sorts. 

 

As far as this game goes, we really can't focus too much on the game as a whole since it's not out....so what we've been really focusing on is the marketing of it. But let's say the game does come out, and it is absolutely misogynistic garbage torture gorn and people don't like it....if people recognize this element  and let it be known, then maybe when the franchise is rebooted for the 5th time or whatever we might see something different.

 

And if this game is great or whatever, but the exploitative marketing turned off potential new comers like me, Sean, and others and people are couscous of this fact....that may make a difference in that too.

 

Or if me and Sean and others are just idiots and completely wrong about everything, talking about it may influence to change our minds. Or vice versa.

 

But what I personally don't like to see is just a 'shut up it's the status quo' or 'I like it so naaah' type of deal.

[---]

Yes, and trivializing everything that's been discussed here isn't helping anything at all.

You know, you people love to throw around that "trivializing" accusation. I didn't trivialize a thing, I just asked if anybody remembered this topic before the focus gradually got horrendously derailed. There's a thread for this kind of discussion, jeez put down the guns and weapons bro, I'm not trying to argue. Take this hostile debate to a more relevant thread so people don't have to wade through discussion that should be there to talk about the gameplay.

Edited February 16, 2013 by /_JXJ_\

[Tornado]

Remember when this was about a video game?

This topic was never only about the game itself, so no. The issues that have been discussed have been inseparable from the game since the very first trailer at E3 last year. Edited February 16, 2013 by Tornado

[---]

Really? While I am not generally prone to being mean anymore (generally) and I am sorry if I am being so here, but its that kind of mentality that limits discussion over various issues :/.

Though I wouldn't object to a lot of this perhaps being moved to a different topic for the people who are only interested in the game itself though, even though arguably all of what is being discussed is related to it by this game being the catalyst for the discussion.

This thread isn't about core societal issues, it's about freaking Tomb Raider. Mercy. And what mentality? Not wanting to be apart of a big old battle to talk about a game?

[Pelly <3's U]

Discuss what about the game exactly? 

 

Because honestly all this discussion is springing off from how they're marketing the game...so I'd say that'd on the developers side. 

 

Plus nothing I've seen about gameplay and such looks worth talking about at all

[Sean]

Frankly I feel that there is more to a lot of games than just gameplay, especially when the developer wants us to believe that to be the case. So when the devs put Lara's character in terms of development and trials on the spotlight, we have every right to scrutinize it. The reason why this is an important thing to discuss is because by doing so, we hopefully can educate others and ourselves about how characters are portrayed and how they can be portrayed better, which hopefully can have an impact on the media we consume in a variety of ways so that it reflects those perceptions.

 

So just because this is a video game doesn't make these issues any less important to talk about. I think we can all agree that we love video games, and that we want the world to take them seriously as a medium the way we do with movies, literature, and (some) television. You guys are the ones constantly going on about how video games ought to be considered art. Games are just as capable of igniting discussions and debates about important issues such as women representation, because it is an industry that deserves to be taken seriously, because EVERYONE involved takes it seriously.

 

Talking about how this game portrays Lara in regards to women's issues is talking about the game.

[Conando]

The thing is that the Tomb Raider marketing and previews have constantly brought forward and focused on Lara Croft being in the worst situations possible, suffering horribly, and dying pathetically. So when they're advertising the game like that, and not talking about anything else, people are going to be talking about that and its connection to societal issues, in this case the misogyny aspects that all this torture and weakening of the character reeks of. That's not to say the original Lara Croft wasn't sexist in her own way but, this is just sexism in a different direction.

[turbojet]

I understand where the idea comes from, I just think in this case it's not so much A causes B, but A and B influence each other....and so B does have the possible chance to influence A.

 

And I'd actually like to learn more about this in a broader sense turbojet as you have knowledge that far exceeds me there, but as Nepenthe stated this topic is getting way out of sorts. 

I just got really annoyed that I was getting misread as "Bigger problems vs small problems." When I was associating problems that have similar effects because of the core lack of physical, mental, social infrastructure that allows all of that to happen. 

 

If you want an analogy, Martin Luther King wanted Civil Rights. Despite that, blacks around the world including the country he wanted Civil Rights for are constantly the most economically poor civilians on the planet(in their respective countries). They are still are the most discriminated, are more likely to go to prison than college, and are essentially fucked.

 

Malcolm X in the last year of his life fought to unite the continent of Africa through Che Guevara, Kwami N'krumah, and Nasser so it could help the rest of diaspora such as Jamaica, Haiti, and etc economically. He believed that a nation could help just as Marcus Garvey(except without calling himself the king of Africa) thought it would since it allowed them to gain infrastructure. So he championed the idea of Pan-Africanism.

 

No, I'm not advocating women get their own nation(Although that would be pretty awesome). I'm saying women(or women of like mind because Rhianna Pratchet is a woman and she is writing this game) should get the power structure that makes it all irrelevant. We can dispute whether the media influences sexism in general or not(I doubt the media has anything to say about the treatment of women in third world countries but whatever), but that doesn't change that women don't have the core infrastructure to effect just the media, but the structure of life around the world in general. That's what I'm saying here. 

 

Now excuse me while I re-write the misinterpreted statement in question.

Edited February 16, 2013 by turbojet

[Candescence]

Geez, this topic got awkward.

 

Really, trying to do something "progressive" with Lara Croft, who has always been a sex symbol to a ridiculous degree, would've likely been an awkward process in any case. The developers obviously have good intentions, but the execution has been extremely awkward. It just comes off as some kind of weird torture porn, and just goes spiralling off in the wrong direction.

 

I mean, making female characters suffer isn't bad in an of itself, but there's gotta be a kind of balance. For example, Fate/Stay Night can be incredibly depressing at times (especially in the Heaven's Feel route, I mean, Jesus Christ), and involves multiple female characters going through some really bad stuff (one girl has a history of rape and abuse at the hands of her asshole brother, who generally doesn't get off scott-free in any of the routes, mind you), it still has a fairly balanced tone and features multiple well-developed female characters who offer different perspectives. Yes, the main protagonist can seem somewhat sexist at times, especially in the Fate route, but that's because he's got self-sacrificial tendencies and really just wants nobody else to get hurt, and he's trying to make excuses to keep Saber out of fighting. It's a bit complex. The visual novel has lighthearted, and heartwarming scenes to balance out the more depressing stuff that goes on (one female character, Taiga Fujimura, is hilarious and she never fails to crack a smile). Sure, the Japanese aren't exactly paragons of gender equality, but Fate/Stay Night certainly explores several female character types fairly well, I feel. Just be warned, though, if you want to read the visual novel, the English translation has a larger total word count than the entire Lord of the Rings trilogy.

 

My personal opinion on writing female characters is to just treat them as people. Extra Credits said it best, a female character can be defined by both what kind of expectations she chooses to embrace and shun. There's nothing wrong with writing 'feminine' women. But trying to shun every societal expectation for the sake of it can just come off as ridiculous, and some female character written this way just come off as assholes as a result (the protagonist of Wet, for example). Balancing these things out and just being careful about what you write and try not to over-stereotype your characters in either direction is the key.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Masaru Daimon

[Phos]

I'm going to take the controversial stance that "women in fridge" seem entirely too dignified for this game, this game is basically a snuff film.  Really not OK.  

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Right...so...I definitely walked into a shitstorm that I kinda wanted to be a part of...if I wasn't working at the time.

 

Gotta say, that scene that reignited this discussion certainly shocked the hell out of me, but I find it one-sided that it's treated as a woman thing than a human thing. Granted, they seem to have been marketing it as such before I caught on to this earlier in the topic, but this has certainly stir the wasps nest again.

Edited February 16, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[---]

Frankly I feel that there is more to a lot of games than just gameplay, especially when the developer wants us to believe that to be the case. So when the devs put Lara's character in terms of development and trials on the spotlight, we have every right to scrutinize it.

Agree.

 

 

The reason why this is an important thing to discuss is because by doing so, we hopefully can educate others and ourselves about how characters are portrayed and how they can be portrayed better, which hopefully can have an impact on the media we consume in a variety of ways so that it reflects those perceptions.

So just because this is a video game doesn't make these issues any less important to talk about.

 

Sean. I didn't say it's unimportant or worth neglect. If people are getting hurt, then yeah, it deserves to be heard. Not arguing against that.

 

 

I think we can all agree that we love video games, and that we want the world to take them seriously as a medium the way we do with movies, literature, and (some) television.

Preach.

 

 

Games are just as capable of igniting discussions and debates about important issues such as women representation, because it is an industry that deserves to be taken seriously, because EVERYONE involved takes it seriously.

 

Talking about how this game portrays Lara in regards to women's issues is talking about the game.

I agree, games can ignite important discussion. However. We're not directly talking about the game, we're talking about something related to something that's related to the game.  I see where you're coming from, I just personally don't agree. I just think it's gotten too far extended to the left to be talking about it here. There's a thread for direct feminism discussion. I mean, I can't stop anybody from continuing the conversation, and I recognize it's not all about me, but that's my take on it.

 

 

(took me so long to respond because of my epic battle with the quote system)

This topic was never only about the game itself

 

"Tomb Raider - Out 05/03/2013 for X360/PS3/PC"

Edited February 16, 2013 by /_JXJ_\

[\gunther]

It's already been explained that these issues are very much related to the game and how people will perceive it. You're acting as if this turned into a topic about straight-up feminism issues, when I honestly haven't seen many posts these past few pages that don't have something to do with the game. If there's something someone sees wrong with how a game is made or presented, even if it's not out, it deserves to be brought up

 

Plus, it's not like there's anything or anyone stopping someone from saying things about the game unrelated to its (outright horrid) sexism. There never was, and people have been talking about the other aspects, but that's just been the key subject here since this topic was created last year. Personally, I think a good chunk of the topic is a really fascinating read because of this issue, and I'm not even a Tomb Raider fan.

Edited February 16, 2013 by SuperHighSchoolLevelAsshat

[Conando]

I'm going to take the controversial stance that "women in fridge" seem entirely too dignified for this game, this game is basically a snuff film.  Really not OK.  

 

At least that's the way they're advertising it, yeah. I really kind of hope this game blows up in Eidos' face, even if it's not as bad as they're making it out to be because, this kind of shit is...eugh, I can't even really describe it. It definitely could be considered similar to a snuff film, or a torture porn flick like SAW.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Torture porn or not, the scene was shocking regardless. I've played a lot of violent games, I mean MGS: Revengence has you slicing people apart and we're cool with that, but this was a bit too visceral and winching.

 

And I guess that's just part of how they're advertising this because any other case we probably wouldn't find it as shocking...so yeah, it's definitely the execution here.

Edited February 16, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Lady Soniko]

This topic oh man...

 

It makes me wonder how if this is how Lara started out for her first big adventure, then holy damn what made her go back to it in the first place? It just looks like a recurring nightmarish dream that doesn't scream "treasure Hunter, Action Seeker" If anything the way this game plays out is grossly OOC for the Tomb Raider verse and mixes fiction with reality way too much, like I said it's like a Far Cry 3 type deal,

like that game legitimately shocked me, from the crawling out of a pit of corpses, to getting my ring finger cut off by the psychotic drug lord, to slitting the throat of the protagonist's girlfriend and making love to a tribal bitch who stabs you with the very knife you used to commit such crimes.

 

The only controversial problem I see here, is that Lara is female, and I feel the dev team are literally trying everything under the sun to make this the most hellish experience Lara could ever hope to experience, it's not about the death scenes, those have been with us since Tomb Raider way back on the PS1, no violent than this (for it's time) but I think the devs working on this game have took it way too far when it comes to punishing Lara, but being upset at her death scenes is pointless, because I've known about this level of graphic in the series since the beginning, Tomb Raider is a series that constantly hammers the nail of controversy of various points that they seem to over step in each move forward, first game was Sexism and using Lara as a sexual plug to sell their game, Lara 2 & 3 got heat from animal rights and such for the amount of animals Lara slayed with her signature pistols.

 

I honestly think it's hard to make a game like Tomb Raider with a female protagonist and find a way to please everyone and make it balanced, I feel that will always be the case with her games, but for a long time fan of the series this is just grossly too far and OOC as far as a TR context goes, and breaches too far into realism and just trying to make her first outing as hellish as possible.

 

If I had to go through this Dead Space 3/Far Cry 3 shit, it wouldn't inspire me to become a world renown treasure and relic hunter, I'd probably be in a psychiatric ward for the rest of my life trying to overcome the mental scars this event would have put on me. 

Edited February 16, 2013 by pelly
People asked for a spoiler tag

[Stacy]

This is nothing new.

 

 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Uh, dude. You really missed the point that's been given entire essays on the problem...

 

Seeing a character get impaled through the skull is completely different from fall damage, drowning, or death after being attacked by beasts and such. The only one in that video that could compare to this is when she falls in a pit of spikes, and even that doesn't come close to the way the presented her head getting speared through in the rapids of a river.

 

It's completely different when those aren't presented in a "torture porn" fashion as other have said.

Edited February 16, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Stacy]

Okay you what the full take of what I was going to put down:

 

 

So its okay for guys in videos games to get maimed, decapitated, butchered but Women, oh no, no, no someone might masturbate to this....

 

Seriously you think this the sole reason why Men play this game? Its like saying men only play GTA to murder Prostitutes. 

 

So Women shouldn't be allowed to die in the Video Games instead they should fart Rainbows and Unicorns then turn into a Butterfly? 

 

Please. Lara has always had violent deaths when the player screwed up.

 

 

 

Women die horrible deaths in real life which get reported in the news yet I don't hear you complain about that? 

 

Seriously is this feminists new hot topic Video games? Fuck equal pay and living standards. Forced into Labour and Sex Slavery. Women being treated like objects in Middle Eastern Countries and forcefully segregated from Men? Nah forget about it Lara Croft got impaled by a tree because this real Female Oppression. 

 

*Awaits torch and pitchforks from over analytical Feminists*

[JezMM]

For me I'm not interested in this game because for all the stuff they're changing, nothing seems to have changed.

 

I think the gruesome deaths would be fine if they were treated as the original game did as Hogfather posted.  In the old games, dumb as torture porn is (but that's just my opinion), at least they all happen in a state of gameplay.  With a couple of more elaborate exceptions (namely non-violent ones like turning to gold), there's no fancy camera angles.  It's not really played up "for entertainment".  I think the impalement in the new game would be just as shocking and gruesome if they kept the camera where it is, and you just see the thing come through the back of her head.

 

But nope, they have to switch to a dramatic camera angle and really focus on it and show her struggling around a bit.  Not only is it gross to have something like this played up for entertainment, regardless of the gender of character, but how desensitised are you going to get to it after the third or so death?

 

like I said it's like a Far Cry 3 type deal, like that game legitimately shocked me, from the...

I dun wanna cause a fuss but didn't you just spoil a ton of stuff from a game only recently released without warning in a topic not relating to it? If I was playing FC3 I'd be so pissed right now. 8C