Tomb Raider - Out 05/03/2013 for X360/PS3/PC

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Okay you what the full take of what I was going to put down:

 

 

So its okay for guys in videos games to get maimed, decapitated, butchered but Women, oh no, no, no someone might masturbate to this....

It has nothing to do with the violence. It's about the victimization of the character and the way people are inclined to see female characters suffer than they would males. 

 

I mean, really, there are essays on the previous page that point this out, and however one-sided I find their reaction to that one scene regarding the character's gender being used, I can damn well see their point on how her suffering is marketed more for her vulnerability than it is her being a badass.

Seriously you think this the sole reason why Men play this game? Its like saying men only play GTA to murder Prostitutes. 

More like men only playing Dead or Alive fighting games and Beach Voliball for the jiggle physics. It's not the only thing about the game that's there, but it sure is getting a lot of emphasis and being marketed as such.

 

Besides, murdering prostitutes isn't the selling point of GTA, it's being able to do whatever crazy idea you have in causing chaos and killing whomever you want in the sandbox.

So Women shouldn't be allowed to die in the Video Games instead they should fart Rainbows and Unicorns then turn into a Butterfly? 

Way to strawman the argument...

 

Please. Lara has always had violent deaths when the player screwed up.

 

 

That's the same video you posted...

 

Women die horrible deaths in real life which get reported in the news yet I don't hear you complain about that?

Is there a topic on it?

 Seriously is this feminists new hot topic Video games? Fuck equal pay and living standards. Forced into Labour and Sex Slavery. Women being treated like objects in Middle Eastern Countries and forcefully segregated from Men? Nah forget about it Lara Croft got impaled by a tree because this real Female Oppression. 

 

*Awaits torch and pitchforks from over analytical Feminists*

Speaking as someone who supports the MRM, could you really miss the point anymore than this?

 

You are seriously off the mark on the previous debate that was made and apparently don't have a clue about it even when someone tells it straight to your face.

Edited February 16, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Detective Shadzter]

I really don't see anything in this game as torture porn and I don't see Lara as a vulnerable target in the marketing to lure dirty minded men. I just see her as a human, like in any other action game. As the developers have explained, this is a prequel to the series where she's starting out fresh, so she's new to all of this. I don't think they've deliberately intended the game to come across how some people are seeing it, but I guess I can understand why some people might think that and I do respect those opinions. 

 

I guess I've been playing so many violent games that I'm already desensitized to deaths like that spike one, too. This is an action/survival game, so I don't think it's out of place.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I had that same belief before Carbo filled in the gap I wasn't getting on the way the game was being presented. I don't fully support that claim, because I find it sexist how we wouldn't bat an eye if you placed a male character in that position by comparison, but I don't find it too hard to see that side's point either.

 

Really, it's about the presentation. I can chop up anyone I want of any gender in a game like GTA or Metal Gear Rising with a samurai sword because it's over the top and not something I'm suppose to take too seriously. Something like this game does the opposite with the character in question.

[Pelly <3's U]

I'm not sure if we can say the line of thinking on their part was deliberately 'Hey let's make Lara suffer and shit so that weird guys will get off to her'

 

But I know for a fact that when we were first debating this in the topic the devs said something along the lines of 'since male characters can't put themselves in the shoes of Lara, we needed to put them in the role of wanting to protect her' which does seem to make a lot of what we're seeing seem like a conscious choice on their part.

 

Between all this and how the whole thing is being marketed, to let them entirely off the hook for any unfortunate implications seems to be a big stretch.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm not sure if we can say the line of thinking on their part was deliberately 'Hey let's make Lara suffer and shit so that weird guys will get off to her'

That's why I find the term "torture porn" misleading, because that's exactly what people unfamiliar with the term would think and it only makes people wonder "WTF are you talking about?" like what happened earlier in this topic.

 

EDIT: ↓ See what I mean?

Edited February 16, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Thigolf]

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I always thought those gory death scenes should just stress the shit Lara has to go through and make her seem even tougher since she survives all the horrible crap and still keeps living her live in adventures and danger besides the horrible things she had to go through. Sure, the focus on those death scenes is unnecessary, but in my opinion, it just makes Lara seem more badass than she already is.

 

And it's not like I'm getting off because she's suffering so much (which is gross), no, I'm admiring the character for the strengh, the will to survive she has.

 

Maybe that's just me, but that's the way I see it.

[MamboCat]

Pit of spike deaths have always been in Tomb Raider games:

 

http://youtu.be/exeCp13u-Ag

 

But there's something about this that really doesn't seem right. I don't really have a problem with "video game violence" as I like games like Assassin's Creed and GTA... where the whole point is to kill people in a brutal manner, but this just seems so... unecessary to me. I can see they are probably trying to recreate the horrified reaction that I least I got when I first fell into a pit of spikes... but this is just... ugh.

 

I love the Tomb Raider games, but the more I see and hear of this, the more I think it's just not a Tomb Raider game. I sometimes wonder what they are thinking...

Edited February 16, 2013 by MamboCat

[Stacy]

Pit of spike deaths have always been in Tomb Raider games:

 

http://youtu.be/exeCp13u-Ag

 

But there's something about this that really don't seem right. I don't really have a problem with "video game violence" as I like games like Assassin's Creed and GTA... where the whole point is to kill people in a brutal manner, but this just seems so... unecessary to me. I can see they are probably trying to recreate the horrific reaction that I least I got when I first fell into a pit of spikes... but this is just... ugh.

 

I love the Tomb Raider games, but the more I see and hear of this, the more I think it's just not a Tomb Raider game. I sometimes wonder what they are thinking...

 

Got admit the Graphic detail is quite a step up from previous games and I can see why seem people would be put off by this but seeing as most of my games are Graphic and Violent it doesn't bother me too much. Maybe like Shadzter perhaps I am bit desensitized to it.

 

I am more curious and interested in the Story and Survival aspects of the game rather the brutality of it.

[JezMM]

I think a lot of people's beef is not the actual game's content but how cheaply they are using it to promote the game.  I agree with whoever said a few pages ago that they're going with a "any publicity is good publicity" model.

 

I mean... ugh part of me doesn't want to blame them.  Action-adventure games are the norm now and they need SOMETHING to mark their new one out from the crowd.  But something GAMEPLAY related would be a lot more interesting than "look at all this shit the character is going through" when that's the sort of thing that could just be a surprise in the actual game.

 

I do wonder if that "we want to make you look after Lara" thing is actually the thoughts of the project's team as a whole or just that one guy interviewed mind you.  It sucks for the dev team if none of this is their intention and a few silly PR people have screwed it up.  Because that is sexist in the same way as the "nice guy" who thinks he's a shining believer in gender equality by treating girls like they're made of glass instead of treating them like crap.

 

I find it offensive that they believe a male player cannot relate to a female character.  Play Beyond Good and Evil sometime, or Half-Life 2 and it's episodes.  I know you PLAY as Gordon in those games but let's be honest, Alyx is the real main character.  I know Jade and Alyx are pulled up time and time again as good female protagonists but that's just because they're so fucking good lol.

[Candescence]

I find it offensive that they believe a male player cannot relate to a female character.  Play Beyond Good and Evil sometime, or Half-Life 2 and it's episodes.  I know you PLAY as Gordon in those games but let's be honest, Alyx is the real main character.  I know Jade and Alyx are pulled up time and time again as good female protagonists but that's just because they're so fucking good lol.

Oh, so fucking agreed on that. Alyx and Jade are both two of the most excellent, believable female characters in gaming, and with good reason. It also helped that Alyx was actually a fairly decent NPC partner. No wonder the ending of Episode 2 was so goddamn heartwrenching. 

It helps that old man Eli was a pretty great guy, too. Valve knows how to make fantastic characters. One of the most gutwrenching player punches in gaming history. Damn.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Masaru Daimon

[Stacy]

Apologizes for my second post it was pure crap. Just get sick of negativity which comes to some game threads mainly this one. Its frustrating to see a series you like and a game your excited for get pull apart and put under a debating microscope usually by people that have no interest in the series other to debate. I would like to be less debatable and more positive about it but its hard.

Edited February 16, 2013 by BW199148

[Pelly <3's U]

I find it offensive that they believe a male player cannot relate to a female character.

 

Ya I do too.

 

Personally I don't think it's a stretch to consider that it was an attitude of the whole development team, because it's a pretty known attitude in the media world in general, even to this day. The Last Airbender people talked about how they were 'breaking ground' when they showed up their producers who was scared Korra wouldn't make money because boys wouldn't buy into a female lead. The concept is so rife when you start looking into the industry, but even if you don't normally look at things from a production side it's not like it's hard to spot from looking at the output. 

 

A lot of this rides on the insecurity of the entertainment industry to break out of the typical mold for fear of losing money, but by this same token we're not actually teaching men how to empathize with females as they aren't given the chance.

 

Its frustrating to see a series you like and a game your excited for get pull apart and put under a debating microscope usually by people that have no interest in the series other to debate

 

Now see to me it's frustrating that I literally can not get into the series of the character who is basically synonymous with female game characters because of stuff like this. I would like to give the series a chance, but it's just so urrrg

[Clouder]

Why are all of you making such a big deal of the impalement scenes? The same things happened in the original. I bet none of you were moaning about Shadow The Hedgehog (game) when one of your possible endings in that game was Shadow brutally killing Eggman and hearing his bones snap and crunch. 

[...]

Why are all of you making such a big deal of the impalement scenes? The same things happened in the original. I bet none of you were moaning about Shadow The Hedgehog (game) when one of your possible endings in that game was Shadow brutally killing Eggman and hearing his bones snap and crunch. 

 

1. We never actually see Shadow explicitly kill Eggman. What does Sonic have to do with anything when it comes to Tomb Raider?

2. The impalement scene, like everyone has already said before, there is literally no reason as to how graphic and brutal its depicted, especially with the way we see Lara die, it's just dehumanizing, honestly.

[Nix]

Why are all of you making such a big deal of the impalement scenes? The same things happened in the original. I bet none of you were moaning about Shadow The Hedgehog (game) when one of your possible endings in that game was Shadow brutally killing Eggman and hearing his bones snap and crunch. 

 

I did.

 

In fact, I was moaning throughout the entirety of Shadow the Hedgehog.

 

And even if I didn't, the scene in the new Tomb Raider would still be stupid.

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

Why are all of you making such a big deal of the impalement scenes? The same things happened in the original. I bet none of you were moaning about Shadow The Hedgehog (game) when one of your possible endings in that game was Shadow brutally killing Eggman and hearing his bones snap and crunch. 

 

 

No offence, but again, you are missing the entire point. Besides, not only you brought up one of the worst games in Sonic's history but you can't see Shadow brutally killing Eggman anyway.

[Emmett L. Brown]

After a dozen pages explaining in detail why the impalement scenes are such a big deal:

Why are all of you making such a big deal of the impalement scenes?

You win a prize!

 

Anway, my main impression is that I cannot believe one game could have so many public releations screw-ups in order. I'm not prepared to write it off completely yet, though. I have faith in Rhianna Pratchett as a writer.

[JezMM]

Why are all of you making such a big deal of the impalement scenes? The same things happened in the original. I bet none of you were moaning about Shadow The Hedgehog (game) when one of your possible endings in that game was Shadow brutally killing Eggman and hearing his bones snap and crunch. 

 

Perhaps if you read the posts in which we make a big deal of the impalement scene that would answer your question?

 

 

EDIT: Haha, pretty much speeded by GOG.

Edited February 16, 2013 by JezMM

[Tornado]

"Tomb Raider - Out 05/03/2013 for X360/PS3/PC"

 

And that means... what, exactly? Because the rape thing came up in the very first trailer and it took all of 8 posts before someone pointed out the unfortunate implications of it, and the 3 pages before that were basically people just talking about nothing since no one knew anything about the game.

 

 

 

Why are all of you making such a big deal of the impalement scenes? The same things happened in the original. I bet none of you were moaning about Shadow The Hedgehog (game) when one of your possible endings in that game was Shadow brutally killing Eggman and hearing his bones snap and crunch.

That's it. I am not watching any videos of it!

It should be called: "Lara Croft Abuse: The Game".

I just watched the impalement preview and literally broke down crying. That kind of gore is just unnecessary.

 

Huh.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Tornado

[Stacy]

Can't we just talk about some of positive things like it only three weeks away from being released? 

[...]

Can't we just talk about some of positive things like it only three weeks away from being released? 

 

>positive things about this game

[Clouder]

 Huh.

 

 

What can I say? Curiosity got the best of me. The crying, however was because:  

Edited February 16, 2013 by Michael Jackson

[Diogenes]

Why are all of you making such a big deal of the impalement scenes? The same things happened in the original.

Maybe it was creepy there, too?

 

I've never played a Tomb Raider game, but I watched the video BW posted. Some of the deaths don't come across as anything worse than in, say, the 3D Zeldas; you lose all your health, you grunt/shout and fall to the ground, fade to black and restart. Others, though...they seem a little too interested in her death. The various death animations aren't just for variety, they're for entertainment. And they aren't cartoony deaths, like in Crash Bandicoot or something, they're pretty realistic given the technology at the time (and of course, the recent game has made them even more realistic and even more brutal). So...what exactly is the point, if there is one beyond entertaining the player with fairly realistic brutal deaths? And if that's all it is...that's pretty fuckin' creepy.

[Candescence]

Well, having varied and graphic deaths is not uncommon (RE4, DMC1, Dead Space, every Sierra adventure game ever), but there's still a point where a game is just going overboard.

[MamboCat]

.... So...what exactly is the point, if there is one beyond entertaining the player with fairly realistic brutal deaths? And if that's all it is...that's pretty fuckin' creepy.

 

I think there was an element of that even in the earlier games. Having her scream as she falls then land in a rather loud, bone crunching crash then have the camera focus in on her corpse... I think they had fun animating all of her deaths. I think that's what this is trying to reference, but to show her struggling as she has a branch stuck through her head is the super creepy part.

 

As for Shadow killing Eggman. No, it's not gross and you don't get to see him actually do the deed... but it's still "WTF was that?!"