Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[anna]

@The KKM I think you're forgetting that the Archie continuity's home is still SatAM. They have been using that Universe forever. Though they made it their own, and it's not the same SatAM from '93, it's not totally game-based. There's a lot of game/comic difference because the characters/story were written and developed differently.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying by sonic is wrong. Do you disagree with his character, or the way Archie is dealing with him...?

Archie obviously made mistakes, but at the same time I think for what it is, as it's own separate thing, they did a whole lot right simply because they were doing it their way. Don't get me wrong- I'm enjoying the games' stories, too, but I like that they are each...different.

I dunno if that makes much sense but I'm not making much sense of this whole thing to be honest.

Also, not to be rude, but you know about character development, right?

I mean, Tails from Sonic Adventure wasn't the same tails from Sonic Colors.

[Mauro Fonseca]

But that's exactly my point, annaislame. Ir's based on SatAM. On 2014. When SatAM was over in 1993-1994, can't recall.

 

@CSS- Of course it's an appeal to authority. Archie was wrong because they differed stupidly from the authority. SEGA is the authority. Sonic Boom as much as I dislike it isn't wrong because it's by SEGA themselves.

 

My point is this. If Archie says Knuckles is green, that's wrong and deserving of SEGA taking the hammer. If SEGA says Knuckles is green, even for a spinoff, it's SEGA dictating on their property. Not wrong.

 

Archie kept saying Knuckles is green (figuratively so you won't hang up on the word wrong), so SEGA had to take the hammer. Archie never said Mega Man is green, so Capcom lets them live happily. Doesn't mean Capcom is less smothering than SEGA, just that they don't need to.

 

So, no, CSS, by this logic SEGA/Sonic Team weren't being wrong at any point in time. They're the writers and gods of the franchise, they literally can't be wrong. If they decide the Master Emerald is unimportant as they have, it's stupid, sure, but not wrong, because they call the shots.

 

To which you say "then how is Archie ever supposed to be right?", to which I say "with the exception of Amy Rose and Super Sonic, Fleetway did just fine until circa 1996. Until Penders came along, Archie did just fine as well."

[anna]

Knuckles became green because of the Chaos Emerald...and then he died, and went back to normal.

It wasn't a real change, it was cause and effect.

Also, despite SatAM being over, Archie, being based on it, is not. But a lot has changed.

They just scrubbed a whole continuity.

I roleplay as Archie!Shadow. He and the canon Shadow are different. They know different people, they've experienced different things, and Archie!Shadow is actually slightly different in personality.

Is...that making sense?

[Mauro Fonseca]

I know why Knuckles became green, was just using it as an example. It was still idiotic, but ok, here's another- making a million green Chaos Emeralds instead of 6 normal ones and a grey one that controls them (pre-Sonic and Knuckles) or 7 normal ones with a Master Emerald (post Sonic and Knuckles).

 

Making Metal Sonic an angry robo copy of Sonic that quips and is destroyed every issue it appears in instead of a silent bleep-blooping murder machine.

 

Tying Sonic to New Mobotropolis instead of having him be a free-roamer.

 

EDIT: And no, I don't want the SatAM elements out. I'm quite fine with the reboot, could use Sonic and Tails not being Freedom Fighters but eh. I'm saying, for all the complaining SEGA smothers the comic, it's giving it more creative license than they need to by allowing it to drag a 20-year-old corpse around in the form of SatAM baggage.

[anna]

I can't recall exactly where you're referring to, but like I said, Archie made mistakes.

So has SEGA.

As far as Archie goes, like I said, a lot has changed. A lot is gone! A lot is still to be revealed

It's not SatAM anymore. At the beginning, yeah, but can you really compare them now?

Would it really be Archie without the freedom fighters?

[Mauro Fonseca]

I know a lot has changed. I'm fine with what has changed. Like I said, no use crying over spilled milk. What started all this about and what I'm constantly bringing back is the complaints that SEGA is more smothering with the comic than Capcom.

[anna]

...SEGA is more smothering. Capcom does not have such a tight leash on Megaman, but have you seen all SEGA's mandates?

Or was that your point

[Splash the Otter]

Even if SEGA is by definition "right", that doesn't mean what they're doing is good. They basically ruined the comic with their mandates. Sure, it's more faithful to the source material now, but at the cost of its identity! I liked when the comic was wrong, and I want the old continuity back...

[Mauro Fonseca]

...SEGA is more smothering. Capcom does not have such a tight leash on Megaman, but have you seen all SEGA's mandates?

Or was that your point

SEGA is more smothering because Archie forced them to. That is my point. Once more, and more brusquely in hopes the message is clearer- Archie shat the bed with Sonic so SEGA had to take measures, Archie never shat the bed with Capcom so Capcom leaves them be.

EDIT:

I roleplay as Archie!Shadow. He and the canon Shadow are different. They know different people, they've experienced different things, and Archie!Shadow is actually slightly different in personality.

Is...that making sense?

Yes.

And when I say Archie!Shadow should NOT be different, and should have the same personality and have experienced at least the same events, because there should not be the need to say "Archie!Shadow", the brand should be clear and by saying "Shadow the Hedgehog" it should mean the same thing everywhere, does it make sense? When I say the different things they experienced and different people they know should be something ADDED TO game!Shadow, instead of replacing; he shouldn't have been rescued by BEM but by Eggman.

EDIT EDIT: Or said in another way, regarding SEGA mandates and Capcom mandates.

SEGA needs to mandate Sonic has no family because the comic insisted in adding family that didn't exist in the source.

Capcom doesn't need to mandate Mega Man has no more family because the comic is keeping it at Roll, Light, Proto Man. You can be damn sure if they decided "oh but his real parents are Jules Man and Bernie Man" they'd need to make a reeeeeeeally good case for Capcom not to just veto it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But that's exactly my point, annaislame. Ir's based on SatAM. On 2014. When SatAM was over in 1993-1994, can't recall.

 

@CSS- Of course it's an appeal to authority. Archie was wrong because they differed stupidly from the authority. SEGA is the authority. Sonic Boom as much as I dislike it isn't wrong because it's by SEGA themselves.

 

My point is this. If Archie says Knuckles is green, that's wrong and deserving of SEGA taking the hammer. If SEGA says Knuckles is green, even for a spinoff, it's SEGA dictating on their property. Not wrong.

 

Archie kept saying Knuckles is green (figuratively so you won't hang up on the word wrong), so SEGA had to take the hammer. Archie never said Mega Man is green, so Capcom lets them live happily. Doesn't mean Capcom is less smothering than SEGA, just that they don't need to.

My point is this, there is no figurative "right or wrong," nor is it because "being different makes it wrong," but instead what Sega says they'll allow to be different or not, hence why it's a mandate because SEGA wants some consistency to give whatever freedom they give a direction to go. Calling it "wrong" for differing from the authority when the authority does the same thing is hypocritical and a fallacy, and the whole argument of "being different makes it wrong" invalidates everything that isn't the source from being anywhere near right, including StC and Sonic Boom because if different = wrong then by that very logic Boom shouldn't have any right to manifest in the first place regardless.

 

So if Archie says Knuckles is green, but Sega says no, then it's not because it's "wrong" but because they as the owner don't want him to be green. We're talking the same company that allowed Knuckles to be "green" because they didn't mind or care enough to take the hammer in the first place until they decided to step in more because it turned into drama for completely different reasons.

 

 

 

So, no, CSS, by this logic SEGA/Sonic Team weren't being wrong at any point in time. They're the writers and gods of the franchise, they literally can't be wrong.

You want to go down this route, then we're the consumers paying for it and vocalizing our dislikes. They were being wrong for ShTH, and they were being wrong for Sonic 06. So for all their marketing of Sonic goes, to say they were right even for these things is basically saying we the consumers should be given a bad product or pay them first and STFU later for our money's worth. That's not how it works when SEGA/Sonic Team are producing products to sell, and the consumers have every right to call them "wrong" when they're doing wrong and penalize them by not paying for their product because according to them they're never wrong for doing what they want with the franchise and screwing around with it for the worst.

 

So Sega/Sonic Team are equally capable of being wrong, god or writers be damned, if we don't like what the hell they're doing to pay them for it.

 

 

 

If they decide the Master Emerald is unimportant as they have, it's stupid, sure, but not wrong, because they call the shots.

Are you seriously taking potshots at me over the Master Emerald thing right now? Because it's completely unnecessary.

[Mauro Fonseca]

It's not a potshot. There's a thousand examples I could've used, but you reminded me of the Master Emerald one. We could talk about Eggman changing name instead.

And I'd argue there can be wrong when they are different when they should've known better. Like adding a thousand green emeralds like I mentioned before when the correct at the time would be 6 Emeralds + Grey one that controls (pre SK) or 7 Emeralds and a Master Emerald.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's not a potshot. There's a thousand examples I could've used, but you reminded me of the Master Emerald one.

And how in the blue hell did I do that? Because I said nothing of the Master Emerald to remind you of it.

And I'd argue there can be wrong when they are different when they should've known better. Like adding a thousand green emeralds like I mentioned before when the correct at the time would be 6 Emeralds + Grey one that controls (pre SK) or 7 Emeralds and a Master Emerald.

And I'd argue once again that it was SEGA being perfectly fine with those creative liberties until part of those liberties became a problem either on their own damn part or because of something else that made them want things to go a different direction. Not because "it's wrong because it's different," because that makes no sense when you apply it to the overall franchise.

[Dejimon11]

Uh, that doesn't exactly make a lot of sense when even during that time even Sonic Team themselves were doing some of the same shit, shoving characters to the side, treating characters completely different to how they were before, adding more stuff to their backstories, and being less of a Sonic game until around Unleashed or Colors.

So if being different is what makes it wrong for Sonic, neither Archie or Sega had it right at the time, making it moot to claim one was wrong over the other. To an extent even now. The only difference for Sega/Sonic Team was that they're the ones in charge of the series able to do whatever the hell they want in their gameverse (and suffer the consequences as well), but it still says a lot of how "wrong" they were for being different in the very series they held ownership over at the time by that very logic.

In fact, the upcoming Sonic Boom series is being completely different as well, even while being licensed to BRB, just like Archie Comics. It's characters look and might even act different, its setting is different, and so forth - are you gonna say that's wrong too on the same basis? Because it's downright hypocritical otherwise and a complete appeal to authority fallacy over something that can't even be proven "wrong" in the first place simply for being different from the source. Sega may have every right to take control over their licensed property, and I'm not going to contest that. But arguing that "being different makes it wrong" because Sega didn't make it is an asspull of an argument to make regardless of the media in question.

Yes everything you said is true but what everybody is trying to say is that it's SEGA's franchise not Archie's they make the final call. SEGA is trying to get their stuff together

Hey those of you who tuned into the stream Saturday, thank you. The interview in full should be available online within the next few weeks (which in FTA-time could be up to as much as 27 and a half years). Which I can't wait for as I I didn't really get to listen to it since as soon as we'd start to play that audio the gang would start yakking off-air about King Monkey Khans and Merlin Prowers and Pirate Plunder Panics and I zoned out being unfamiliar with all of that. Very happy you guys could pull a few tidbits out of it while helping Tracy out and I hope the rest was an entertaining listen and watch.

Anywho that said I've read the first couple Saga Series (still waiting on Ian's stream prizes to be sent out so I can read Vol. 3 and continue on), the Shadow Saga in Universe which I really liked and have even picked up a few Mega Man trades. I pop in this thread and check out the discussion and page previewers every now and again and it all looks very solid these days, though I definitely feel for those who miss the old continuity. That said I'm glad Archie is collecting newer arcs into trades as that's really how I prefer to read these things.

I guess what I'm wondering is, if I liked what I've read so far, is it worth heading back to the start of the main comic and going from there? Or should I just focus on Issue #160 onwards? I've managed read the first 20 or so issues sporadically throughout the years but never made a serious effort to go through it all. I know the continuity is wiped now, of course, but I'm wondering more in terms of: Is it interesting to read? Well put together? Easy to look past Ron Lim's art? I'll admit that what I really like about the new comic direction is the art and the simplified cast, but if I'm going through those old issues as they happened perhaps I could start digging Knuckle's massive family among other comic-created cast members.

This was probably horrible to read but I'm having trouble organizing my thoughts tonight.

Personally Id start with 160 if your curious about the old continuity. The earlier issues where just filled with adventures of sonic styled humor then things started to get serious during the mecha madness arc. Then things started to go downhill post Naugus world tour arc. The editor at the time didnt really care that much, the artwork was a mess and it came off as a way for the writers to tell stories that they wanted to make but had to add sonic in it so people would buy them. It gave the comic a bad rep for a long time and was a mystery how the comic was still running or atleast didn't get rebooted. When the change of staff came they tried to make it fun and I think that it's easier to get around without knowing the older stuff except knuckles who had to much. But that's how I feel if it doesn't suit your interest just stick with what's going on now

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Yes everything you said is true but what everybody is trying to say is that it's SEGA's franchise not Archie's they make the final call. SEGA is trying to get their stuff together

Except I made it blatantly clear, in that third paragraph, that I am fully aware that Sega has every right to take control over their product, and wasn't contesting that.

 

But what was also made blatantly clear throughout that whole post is that the argument of "it's wrong because it's different" is nonsense, and it isn't the case for Sega making these calls.

[Mauro Fonseca]

You reminded me of the Master Emerald because it's one of the first memories I have of you, a very long argument about the Master Emerald. It was not intended as a potshot however, you just reminded me "oh right the Master Emerald that's an example that works here".

And I really can't agree, man. SEGA didn't care, sure. Just like Capcom doesn't care now. They're given a bunch of goodwill. Then Archie went wrong where there really was no reason for it (mostly on the shoulders of Penders and Gabrie), so now that SEGA cares, they have to face it. Doesn't change it was stupid of Archie in the first place to grab game information, canon SEGA-given information, and go "aaaah fuck that".

[Splash the Otter]

KKM, you're being unreasonable. SEGA is wrong in this situation, because in trying to preserve their brand they destroyed 20 years of hard work. That is something I simply can't look past, and I can't believe you're actually trying to defend their actions.

[Dejimon11]

Except I made it blatantly clear, in that third paragraph, that I am fully aware that Sega has every right to take control over their product, and wasn't contesting that.

 

But what was also made blatantly clear throughout that whole post is that the argument of "it's wrong because it's different" is nonsense, and it isn't the case for Sega making these calls.

Yeah the whole "it's wrong because its different" thing shots itself in the foot due to sonic boom

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And I really can't agree, man. SEGA didn't care, sure. Just like Capcom doesn't care now. They're given a bunch of goodwill. Then Archie went wrong where there really was no reason for it (mostly on the shoulders of Penders and Gabrie), so now that SEGA cares, they have to face it. Doesn't change it was stupid of Archie in the first place to grab game information, canon SEGA-given information, and go "aaaah fuck that".

Then it's not "wrong because it's different." It's because someone messed it up and it needed to be cleaned and maintained (which Sega is equally guilty of on their part for letting it happen).

 

Again, there is no "right" or "wrong" but what Sega is okay with having and what they don't want. Because being different =/= wrong. All the different media we've had, with different verses we're still getting is a testament to that, and wouldn't continue to be around in the first place if that was even remotely the case.

[Mauro Fonseca]

KKM, you're being unreasonable. SEGA is wrong in this situation, because in trying to preserve their brand they destroyed 20 years of hard work. That is something I simply can't look past, and I can't believe you're actually trying to defend their actions.

Electro, you're being unreasonable. SEGA is right in this situation, because in trying to clean up the brand they actually still allowed the comic to retain much of it's 20 years of irrelevant history, namely anything that didn't directly contradict the main SEGA characters (and even then, I don't remember Egg Bosses in the games!). That is something many look past, and I do believe you're trying to attack them on their actions because you're understandeably upset about all the changes.

(even if that's a bit misguided- the radical changes are coming from Archie, not SEGA. For an example, let's imagine Shard doesn't appear again. SEGA only said "he can't be a Metal Sonic", if he doesn't show up it'll be because Archie said "we can't have characters not by Ian" [but don't worry he's all but confirmed to show up]).

@CSS- And they messed it up by making it different.

This is circular.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

@CSS- And they messed it up by making it different.

This is circular.

No, it's absurd.

 

They messed it up by not giving a damn about anything Sonic, not simply because it's different. Merely being different isn't the problem here; the comic is still different even with the mandates, and yet Sega seem perfectly fine with it.

 

If being different in general was a problem, then anything not Game!Sonic is messed up by default by that broad as hell brush you're painting it with.

[Mauro Fonseca]

It's different in the wrong places, then. Which I believe I said already, but whatever.

Consider Game Sonic to be a human skeleton. The comic should be different in the meat that's on the humanskeleton. The comic instead spent 20 years having the skeleton torso of an Emu while pretending to be human.

Even with the reboot there's still an emu rib there or two, but at this point I'll take what I can get.

Consider a salad. The games are a salad. The comic should be dressing adding to the salad. Instead, it spent 20 years being a hamburger, and now it's a salad with a bun shredded into it.

[JAiRO]

It's different in the wrong places, then. Which I believe I said already, but whatever.Consider Game Sonic to be a human skeleton. The comic should be different in the meat that's on the humanskeleton. The comic instead spent 20 years having the skeleton torso of an Emu while pretending to be human.Even with the reboot there's still an emu rib there or two, but at this point I'll take what I can get.Consider a salad. The games are a salad. The comic should be dressing adding to the salad. Instead, it spent 20 years being a hamburger, and now it's a salad with a bun shredded into it.

So Sonic is a skeleton, and the comics are burgers.

I don't get it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's different in the wrong places, then. Which I believe I said already, but whatever.

No, you initially said "it's wrong because it's different," as if anything not made by Sega is automatically wrong by virtue of being different.

 

That's a whole different meaning there, and even then you cited the characters, and the location as examples for being wrong when it's no different from all the other medias that do the same thing, such as Sonic Boom.

 

 

Consider Game Sonic to be a human skeleton. The comic should be different in the meat that's on the human skeleton. The comic instead spent 20 years having the skeleton torso of an Emu while pretending to be human.

Even with the reboot there's still an emu rib there or two, but at this point I'll take what I can get.

You wanna start arguing with analogies? I consider Game Sonic to be a human being with a certain skin color and personality and the comic being different by having a different skin color with a different personality, just like the cartoons have their own skin tone and personality all with their own cultures. They may have their differences, but they're still apart of Sonic in the world of Sega just like humans with different skin colors are still human in the world of Earth.

 

And to me the reboot is just the comics way of finding a new interest in itself. There's no racism in it, just people of different interests and you're initial point was all but saying one is "sub-human" to the other by being different in skin tone and personality and culture.

[Splash the Otter]

Electro, you're being unreasonable. SEGA is right in this situation, because in trying to clean up the brand they actually still allowed the comic to retain much of it's 20 years of irrelevant history, namely anything that didn't directly contradict the main SEGA characters (and even then, I don't remember Egg Bosses in the games!). That is something many look past, and I do believe you're trying to attack them on their actions because you're understandeably upset about all the changes.

Resorting to NO U, are we? Yeah, that's a great way to make people take you seriously. Anyway, I can understand what SEGA was trying to do, but they went too far with their demands. Because of them, the comic has pretty much gone to shit.

[Mauro Fonseca]

You resorted to appealing to my honour as if I were defending a rapist, so I'm not sure what you mean.

CSS, I'm not sure how to respond to you slathering a big old "are you a racist" on this, so I suppose all analogies are killed. Licensed products are meant to add to the source. Archie Sonic changed the source. That is wrong. Call me racist on that.

EDIT: I mean, yeah. I try to keep it to silly analogies that might still be understandeable, or when in doubt, the old "shat the bed/did not shit the bed". But no, let's start applying actual sensitive subjects as analogies to the franchise about cartoon animals.

What's next? A nazism analogy, how about it? SEGA can be Auschwitz.