Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Tenko]

I guess they have moved away from Metal having a personality. He sure had one in the licensed OVA's and the Rivals/Heroes era. I guess he's back to being a programmed to kill machine with a superiority complex again.

[Mauro Fonseca]

It's not so much having a personality as it is that Archie's personality was all wrong. And of course, speaking. In the OVA he utters one line, and beyond Heroes he utters none in the games.

 

Plus after Heroes he was reprogrammed to be less independent IIRC

[Dantemustdie00]

That sucks that they can't have cameos of other Sega Characters, even if it's a small one. 

[biznizz]

Some of these rules are really stupid if you ask me. What's so bad about references to other continuities? And why does Sonic have to win all the time? SEGA's mandates are pretty much the reason we can't have nice things...

 

The reason that Sonic has to win all the time, and why he can't cry, and why he can't have a steady girlfriend is all due to one thing: SONIC THE HEDGEHOG HAS TO BE COOL ALL DAY, EVERY DAY, ALL THE TIME, FOREVER. It's SEGA trying to "protect" Sonic's image.

 

Remember back during the Genesis days, where saying Sonic was cool & how lame Mario was in comparision was basically a marketing campaign for the games & the comic? Hell, the reason that Sonic was chosen to be SEGA's new mascot was due to how cool he looked, especially for a Western audience which he was the target demographic for. SEGA seems worried about any idea that Sonic will eventually cease to be cool, which is why for a while he got a new gimmick every other game (remember the Werehog?).

 

Sonic lost to Eggman for six issues/months? "Ugh, why isn't Sonic as cool as he is in the games anymore. In Sonic Colors, he handed Eggman's butt to him!" Sonic dating or in a relationship with Sally, Amy, Mina, insertnamehere (ignoring shipping wars for now)? "What is this, a romance comic? Sonic shouldn't care about stuff like that! Way uncool." Sonic breaks down into tears over his (basically) girlfriend getting turned into a robot? "SONIC. DOESN'T. CRY. EVER. Do they even PLAY the games?!" Keep in mind that the quotations are stand-ins for SEGA's fears.

 

By trying to keep Sonic's coolness "well nourished", SEGA is actually smothering him, and they can't see why because they still think it's 1993. Even after conceeding Sonic to play around with Nintendo characters in the Olympics and Smash Bros. games, they still think that "Sonic=ultimate coolness=sales", when it seems more like most people (outside of a vocal minority) wouldn't mind a more relateable Sonic if the games he's in are designed well.

 

As for the "no referencing other Sonic continuities" thing? Eh... rights issues with the animation companies and the various brances of SEGA?

[DarkLight]

Plus, it's not like the comic was better off back when Sega didn't give much of a fuck about it.

 

All I can and will say when it comes to this matter is that it's fine to disagree with some of the mandates, but it's not really fair to act like Sega can't have a say with what is ultimately their property and doesn't do all of this just to see the fans get pissed off.

 

That's all I'm going to say on this and I'll be sticking to it.

[biznizz]

Point, but going the other extreme was never a good solution.

 

You know it's kinda funny, Capcom basically couldn't give to f*cks about Mega Man, yet I have no worries that his book will continue to go well.

 

Not only because Ian is a competant writer, but because the internet is around to constantly monitor him. And because he's doing more for Mega Man outside of Smash Bros. for now.

[anna]

I rather liked seeing Sonic lose on occasion. I mean, no one's really invincible, right? You don't win every time. I thought it made him seem more...human (he's a hedgehog, but you know what I mean).

 

I'm slightly disappointed that Sonic/Sally can't ever be a thing, even though it always seems enforced that they're in love, or at least, it used to be. Also, at first I misread that no SatAM characters can be used and I got confused...I'm so relieved I read that wrong.

 

I really like relateable characters- that's what always connects me to them, the fact that I can relate. I guess some people look up to Sonic, but at the same time, it's kind of annoying to have a character who can do EVERYTHING and succeed EVERY TIME 

 

SONIC THE HEDGEHOG HAS TO BE COOL ALL DAY, EVERY DAY, ALL THE TIME, FOREVER.

I very much feel the need to frame this. 

 

In any case, I agree with the whole SEGA-smothering thing. While some of those mandates don't bother me much, the Sonic ones really do. It feels OOC for Archie!Sonic.

 

^{_{Maybe SEGA will wise up...I mean, that's unlikely, but maybe...}}

^{_{Luckily, Ian's writing is really good imo so he can probably make these work.}}

[biznizz]

Ah, thanks. You can keep the quote. ...I'm just worried the time(s) will come when someone reads that and thinks that's my serious opinion about Sonic.

 

Ah, the physical copies of Sonic & Mega Man are out this Friday, right? Or is it just Sonic & Mega Man is delayed til next week or March 7th? Ahh, you had one job Archie, to keep your After The Credits Month books WITHIN the same month...

[anna]

I was checking Barnes & Noble and I believe it said SU #63 is out Wednesday...not sure about Mega Man, though.

 

^{_{Should I put a disclaimer}}

[biznizz]

I mean Sonic the Hedgehog, not Universe. We did get the physical release with the variant for SU 62 last week.

[Zaysho]

I was checking Barnes & Noble and I believe it said SU #63 is out Wednesday...not sure about Mega Man, though.

 

^{_{Should I put a disclaimer}}

 

Doubt it; the print copy of SU#62 just dropped in comic shops/direct markets last week. Odds are B&N are getting their shipments for SU#62 in this week. Bookstores/newsstands always get comics after direct markets.

[anna]

Oh, my bad! In any case, everywhere I check says StH #260 is out May 14th. 

 

And...actually, everywhere I look, I am also seeing that SU #63 is out Wednesday. Might be an eBook, but it doesn't make much sense to me, considering.

 

Also I wanted to leave this here. Bumbleking forums has a list of all confirmed returning characters (Shard seems to be speculated, tho.)

Edited April 22, 2014 by annaislame

[Zaysho]

Oh, my bad! In any case, everywhere I check says StH #260 is out May 14th. 

 

And...actually, everywhere I look, I am also seeing that SU #63 is out Wednesday. Might be an eBook, but it doesn't make much sense to me, considering.

 

Could be SU#63 drops digitally next week.

 

Ah, yup. The original solicit for SU#63 states it's out this week. But based on the current release schedule, that will only be for digital. The print will likely drop mid/late May.

 

Thanks for the roll call list, by the way, it helps to give an idea of what we've got to work with.

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

Could be next week SU#63 drops digitally next week.

 

Ah, yup. The original solicit for SU#63 states it's out this week. But based on the current release schedule, that will only be for digital. The print will likely drop mid/late May.

Can't wait for Hooligan vs Chaotix vs Knux

[MykonosFan]

Hey those of you who tuned into the stream Saturday, thank you. The interview in full should be available online within the next few weeks (which in FTA-time could be up to as much as 27 and a half years). Which I can't wait for as I I didn't really get to listen to it since as soon as we'd start to play that audio the gang would start yakking off-air about King Monkey Khans and Merlin Prowers and Pirate Plunder Panics and I zoned out being unfamiliar with all of that. Very happy you guys could pull a few tidbits out of it while helping Tracy out and I hope the rest was an entertaining listen and watch. 

 

Anywho that said I've read the first couple Saga Series (still waiting on Ian's stream prizes to be sent out so I can read Vol. 3 and continue on), the Shadow Saga in Universe which I really liked and have even picked up a few Mega Man trades. I pop in this thread and check out the discussion and page previewers every now and again and it all looks very solid these days, though I definitely feel for those who miss the old continuity. That said I'm glad Archie is collecting newer arcs into trades as that's really how I prefer to read these things.

 

I guess what I'm wondering is, if I liked what I've read so far, is it worth heading back to the start of the main comic and going from there? Or should I just focus on Issue #160 onwards? I've managed read the first 20 or so issues sporadically throughout the years but never made a serious effort to go through it all. I know the continuity is wiped now, of course, but I'm wondering more in terms of: Is it interesting to read? Well put together? Easy to look past Ron Lim's art? I'll admit that what I really like about the new comic direction is the art and the simplified cast, but if I'm going through those old issues as they happened perhaps I could start digging Knuckle's massive family among other comic-created cast members. 

 

This was probably horrible to read but I'm having trouble organizing my thoughts tonight.

[Mauro Fonseca]

SEGA did wise-up, by the way.

 

It's why they cracked down on Archie's idiocy.

 

EDIT: And anyone thinking Capcom's any better isn't seeing the whole picture. Not only would Capcom of America be more lenient since they're desperate, but Ian gives them no reason not to be. The characters are written right and the material is respected. And even then they can't reference Challengers from the Future or other Capcom characters by name.

 

SEGA needs to be stricter because unlike Mega Man, Sonic's been written wrong for two decades. It's like complaining a teacher would punish a bad student when they don't punish the good one.

[biznizz]

@KKM, I know at least one guy on Deviantart with a one person "Fire Flynn" petition who would disagree with you about Mega Man.

 

But as for Sonic, his problems aren't just in the comics, which is almost assuredly not even half of the game fanbase. I have no idea if Lost World has a terrible story or not (I've seen the cutscenes, and they seem fine. Simple, but okay). I don't know why the name of Sonic's planet has to be unnamed as "Sonic's World" (for the games, and now the comics it seems). It seems like the games and the fans are having a crisis of tone, since I've read many long debates about darker, more serious plots vs lighter, less serious plots.

 

Was his comic in a huge rut for a while? Yeah, no doubt. (But 20 years? Eh, I'm a Flynn fan, but even I have to admit when the times came where Bollers or *ugh* even Penders did a few things right). But to say that his comic has always been "written wrong" is an oversimplification.

 

@Mykonos, ...That's hard to say, since I don't know your tastes. The tone & direction of the book went all over the place in the 20+ years of the comic. From comedy, to dark, to slice of life, to boring @$$ sh*t, to WTF-ery,  to some pretty cool stuff. And that's just story wise. Artwise; it can be terribly inconsistant. For a company (in)famous for it's house style, Archie let Sonic get some really great artists, and a lot of bad ones wih others all over the spectrum; Ron Lim is a big name, but not the only notorious artist to draw for the book.

 

The safe bet quite honestly is, if you are liking Ian's stuff, start from his first issue and, if you are still curious, then work back. If you ever see an Archives or Select book with older stuff, check out at least three non-consequtive stories from it; you'll know if you want to keep reading the older stuff or not.

 

But even at it's most boring, reading the whole series from start to now is somewhat interesting, if only because of how schizophrenic it can get before Ian stablized it.

[Splash the Otter]

SEGA did wise-up, by the way.

 

It's why they cracked down on Archie's idiocy.

 

EDIT: And anyone thinking Capcom's any better isn't seeing the whole picture. Not only would Capcom of America be more lenient since they're desperate, but Ian gives them no reason not to be. The characters are written right and the material is respected. And even then they can't reference Challengers from the Future or other Capcom characters by name.

 

SEGA needs to be stricter because unlike Mega Man, Sonic's been written wrong for two decades. It's like complaining a teacher would punish a bad student when they don't punish the good one.

How does being different from the source material equate to being wrong? The comic is set in a different universe, and as such shouldn't be required to follow the same rules as the games. Based on your logic StC was (and still is) written wrong, because it takes even more liberties than Archie Sonic ever did.

 

I can understand what SEGA is trying to do, but they really need to loosen up because most of their mandates are just ridiculous.

[Mauro Fonseca]

By written wrong I mean it was a wrong Sonic comic. Even if written as a good comic, the characters were wrong, the setting was wrong, it was doing a bad job of being a Sonic comic. If I started a franchise and licensed it around, I wouldn't want 20 years from now the only major licensed product to still be about a majorly irrelevant spinoff from now instead of the franchise itself.

 

Ian's Mega Man, meanwhile, is faithful to the games even when slightly altering the plot.

 

The world has to be Sonic's World because of a decade of complaining it wasn't Mobius.

 

EDIT: Also no, Electro. StC would be wrong now, and if it were being published now and still being different from what it's supposed to be I'd be complaining too. But at the time? Try reading the SEGA of America Sonic Bible, or the source book they commissioned. StC is the adaptation worldwide that's ever kept closer to what was canon at the time. Archie, was doing it wrong already pretty much as soon as Penders got the reigns.

 

Seriously. Look at all the mandates we know. They can pretty much be resumed as "write the characters from the games instead of some alternate versions of them".

[Splash the Otter]

By written wrong I mean it was a wrong Sonic comic. Even if written as a good comic, the characters were wrong, the setting was wrong, it was doing a bad job of being a Sonic comic.

You still haven't explained what made it "wrong", aside from being different.

 

If I started a franchise and licensed it around, I wouldn't want 20 years from now the only major licensed product to still be about a majorly irrelevant spinoff from now instead of the franchise itself.

Said spinoff has an established history going back two decades. Demanding its removal is just disrespectful, no matter how "irrelevant" it is.

 

The world has to be Sonic's World because of a decade of complaining it wasn't Mobius.

Sonic's World is a stupid name for a planet, and doesn't make sense in-universe. Why would they name an entire planet after one person?

 

EDIT: Also no, Electro. StC would be wrong now, and if it were being published now and still being different from what it's supposed to be I'd be complaining too. But at the time? Try reading the SEGA of America Sonic Bible, or the source book they commissioned. StC is the adaptation worldwide that's ever kept closer to what was canon at the time. Archie, was doing it wrong already pretty much as soon as Penders got the reigns.

Really? Please show me where in the Sonic Bible it mentions the Drakon Empire, Super Sonic being a psychopath, or Tails coming from the Nameless Zone. StC may have looked like it was faithful to the games, but most of the similarities were superficial at best.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Being different made it wrong. That's the whole point. Look at how Knuckles didn't act like Knuckles for 20 years. Look at how Amy was shoved to the side. It was different in all the wrong places. It's a Sonic comic that wasn't being a Sonic comic. And sure, fine, whatever, let's not cry over spilled milk. Let's not cry when the time comes to get shit together either.

 

StC, towards its end, was also falling into this, and the Adventure adaptation was entirely wrong despite enjoyable, but StC was also cancelled soon after so there's no point in complaining about it- as I said if it kept like that until today, I'd be complaining about it too.

Even then though, those things you pointed out don't quite reach the levels of idiocy Archie added thanks to Penders, mostly. The Drakon are just aliens acting as enemies, and the only alterations to the game characters themselves (beyond Amy who was completely altered) were Super Sonic (which wasn't covered by SEGA of America canon at the time) and Tails' origins (which kept him being an orphan anyway).

 

StC didn't do it perfectly, but it did it ten times better than Archie. At least after Gallagher stopped calling the shots.

 

All SEGA is doing is saying "make this about the games with extra content instead of about SatAM with extra content and the games by the side". And considering they, and not Archie, own Sonic, it's well damn in their rights to do it, and hell, instead of complaining we ought to be grateful they're not doing the logical thing and just cutting all old irrelevant content altogether. There's still Freedom Fighters, Sonic is still tied to them despite not making sense, Eggman is still roboHitler, etc. They didn't have to allow any of this, but they did.

 

EDIT: And going back to the start of discussion, again, my point is that Capcom isn't really "nicer" or SEGA's being stupid by not being lenient like Capcom- Archie hasn't given Capcom reason for them to stop being lenient (in general; again, we know at least one game not allowed to be adapted), while giving SEGA plenty reason for them to take more control of the product.

[Splash the Otter]

Being different made it wrong. That's the whole point.

As someone who likes when an adaptation is different from the source material, I disagree.

 

 

StC, towards its end, was also falling into this, and the Adventure adaptation was entirely wrong despite enjoyable, but StC was also cancelled soon after so there's no point in complaining about it- as I said if it kept like that until today, I'd be complaining about it too.

 

Who said I was complaining? If anything, I think the departures are what made StC great.

 

 

Even then though, those things you pointed out don't quite reach the levels of idiocy Archie added thanks to Penders, mostly. The Drakon are just aliens acting as enemies, and the only alterations to the game characters themselves (beyond Amy who was completely altered) were Super Sonic (which wasn't covered by SEGA of America canon at the time) and Tails' origins (which kept him being an orphan anyway).

 

I'm gonna have to stop you there. Tails isn't an orphan in StC. The whole reason everyone in the Nameless Zone thinks he's such a hero is because of the letters he wrote to his family (which presumably means his parents).

 

 

All SEGA is doing is saying "make this about the games with extra content instead of about SatAM with extra content and the games by the side". And considering they, and not Archie, own Sonic, it's well damn in their rights to do it, and hell, instead of complaining we ought to be grateful they're not doing the logical thing and just cutting all old irrelevant content altogether. There's still Freedom Fighters, Sonic is still tied to them despite not making sense, Eggman is still roboHitler, etc. They didn't have to allow any of this, but they did.

 

I don't care if SEGA owns the franchise, they're still ruining a perfectly good comic with their mandates! Why can't you respect my opinion?

[Mauro Fonseca]

I don't care if you like the comic while being erroneous. I quite enjoy it too. What I'm telling you is that it's wrong, purely wrong, at the marketing level, at the SEGA level. Otherwise they wouldn't need the mandates in the first place! The mandates they're in the right to make! Enjoy something that's wrong, sure, I quite enjoy Sonic Underground, but in terms of "what is the Sonic brand", replying "SatAM" or "Freedom Fighters" or "Millions of echidnas" is wrong, that's not the Sonic brand, that's not what SEGA made!

 

Once more, this is what I'm saying- Capcom doesn't need to mandate Archie much since Archie respects the source material in Mega Man. SEGA needs to mandate Archie much more since Archie spent 15 years disrespecting the source material and an extra 5 trying to do a ridiculous compromise. Enjoy that we got 20 years of a comic violently doing its own thing despite all logic and reason saying they shouldn't have. Don't cry for the spilled milk. But should you really cry when the mop comes to clean? Celebrate what we had instead of cursing what we'll have, especially when so far what we'll have has been the most fun the comic's been in 3 years at least.

 

EDIT: And yes, I know it's hard to do so. Everyday I have to close a tab here or on Retro before I start snarking about how I feel betrayed by Sonic Boom (SEGA spends 20 years not bothering to enforce the licensing does its job, and when it starts doing it, this happens? Come on), but even then I'll admit it's not a bad idea in terms of marketing. Fairly useless, but not bad. And certainly on their rights to do so.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Being different made it wrong. That's the whole point. Look at how Knuckles didn't act like Knuckles for 20 years. Look at how Amy was shoved to the side. It was different in all the wrong places. It's a Sonic comic that wasn't being a Sonic comic. And sure, fine, whatever, let's not cry over spilled milk. Let's not cry when the time comes to get shit together either.

Uh, that doesn't exactly make a lot of sense when even during that time even Sonic Team themselves were doing some of the same shit, shoving characters to the side, treating characters completely different to how they were before, adding more stuff to their backstories, and being less of a Sonic game until around Unleashed or Colors.

 

So if being different is what makes it wrong for Sonic, neither Archie or Sega had it right at the time, making it moot to claim one was wrong over the other. To an extent even now. The only difference for Sega/Sonic Team was that they're the ones in charge of the series able to do whatever the hell they want in their gameverse (and suffer the consequences as well), but it still says a lot of how "wrong" they were for being different in the very series they held ownership over at the time by that very logic.

 

In fact, the upcoming Sonic Boom series is being completely different as well, even while being licensed to BRB, just like Archie Comics. It's characters look and might even act different, its setting is different, and so forth - are you gonna say that's wrong too on the same basis? Because it's downright hypocritical otherwise and a complete appeal to authority fallacy over something that can't even be proven "wrong" in the first place simply for being different from the source. Sega may have every right to take control over their licensed property, and I'm not going to contest that. But arguing that "being different makes it wrong" because Sega didn't make it is an asspull of an argument to make regardless of the media in question.

[Your Vest Friend]

I'd just say that Archie was different in stupid ways (not every way was stupid though), myself. Not wrong, per se.