Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3

[Remy]

And completely eliminating the differentiation between kicks and punches without stick motion makes things easier how? And what if I want to play as, say, Sagat?

Yeah, Sagat as a character would not work in a 3 button game at all unless you made the different strengths shoot different heighten tiger shots or something.

Ultimately, I think amount of buttons in the game have little bearing on the actual game it self, it's how these buttons are used that determines the complexity.

Actually in MvC you do the combination for the next-in-line's special to chain hyper combo's not press the partner button. Even moves like ragin demon can be chained this way.

Yeah, that was it. The weird thing is though people are talking about the chain supers like it's a new thing. : S

[LunarEdge]

^ exactly my point =3

Yeah, that was it. The weird thing is though people are talking about the chain supers like it's a new thing. : S

Yea that always caught me by surprise that people think it's something new and amazing to pull off. It's been around for awhile and it's easy and as hell to pull off XD

Edited June 25, 2010 by Lunar

[Conando]

Actually in MvC you do the combination for the next-in-line's special to chain hyper combo's not press the partner button. Even moves like ragin demon can be chained this way.

Oh right, I somehow forgot about that method. I'm not really good at remembering all the techniques. :\

If I recall you can do it in TvC too, but this is me we're talking about. You just reminded me of it.

I'm not sure what you are saying here.

I worded it poorly. People mix up the Special and Super attacks a lot, since most people think of some sort of massive attack when it's called a "special". Also it's "easier" in the way MvC works, which is a lot of emphasis on long combos. With the 3 button system it's easy to get a normal combo going by just going L>M>H, then launching with the new Aerial button to continue into an air combo.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Hero Of Fate

[LunarEdge]

yea but in MvC everyone had their own unique attack to initiate a air combo which I liked. In TvC everyone's move to initiate an air combo was down-forward and the strong attack button, and everyone's air combo was the same in TvC with that damn control scheme. In MvC2 everyone had different air combos with different combinations to initiate said combo. In MvC an air combo could be, LP>LK>LP>LP>HK to finish it up, in TvC it was mostly low attack > Medium Attack > High Attack. Every once in awhile it will be mixed up with LA > MA > Baroque >LA > MA > HA but it was all roughly the same

[Conando]

The problem is Capcom thought that was too complicated for the group they're going for with this game, and really it kind of is for the gamer of today (kind of funny that things are simpler these days considering). I don't blame them for trying to get more than hardcore fighting enthusiasts, especially when they probably paid a ridiculous amount of money to get the Marvel license back. It should also be noted that this game, like TvC, was made with consoles in mind. Hell, I don't even think it's getting an arcade release.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Hero Of Fate

[LunarEdge]

The problem is Capcom thought that was too complicated for the group they're going for with this game, and really it kind of is for the gamer of today (kind of funny that things are simpler these days considering). I don't blame them for trying to get more than hardcore fighting enthusiasts, especially when they probably paid a ridiculous amount of money to get the Marvel license back. It should also be noted that this game, like TvC, was made with consoles in mind. Hell, I don't even think it's getting an arcade release.

I call BS on that because in the trailer it says a game a decade in the making or a decade of demand or something along those lines and we, the fans of the series, demanded it. I don't see why they have to adhere to a different group when they had more then enough fans of the actual series pestering them to release a sequel XD

I didn't mean anything negative towards your post or anything =3

Edited June 25, 2010 by Lunar

[Conando]

After that trailer the director said he wanted the game to not only appeal to fans, but the typical gamer who may be intimidated by traditional fighting games. He said that it was "his hope" that MvC 3 can be a game that allows "casual" fighting fans and "hardcore" ones to perform on the same level. When I think about that, it might exclude the hardcore, because, not to be rude...but a lot of them seem to have a high level of unwarranted self-importance.

Conversations on why the system was changed was also brought up during E3, though I can't actually remember the specifics.

Edit: Blurry move list instructions from E3.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Hero Of Fate

[Remy]

When I think about that, it might exclude the hardcore, because, not to be rude...but a lot of them seem to have a high level of unwarranted self-importance.

Funny, I find most of the self importance comes from the casual fans, thinking that their support is needed to save the fighting genre from dying an untimely death.

Further more, they said the same thing about SF4 (which is pretty much the opposite of casual) and especially so with Blazblue. Both of which are actually super complex.

[Conando]

Funny, I find most of the self importance comes from the casual fans, thinking that their support is needed to save the fighting genre from dying an untimely death.

I have never heard that. Ever. Mainly due to the fact that casual fans probably don't care if the fighting genre dies. You know, considering they're not really into it. I'm not arguing that it won't be complex either. Actually, what I'm TRYING to say is that, even though it may be more accessible doesn't mean the game is going to be gimped or anything of the sort. I've heard that as a common complaint.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Hero Of Fate

[Remy]

what are you talking about then

[Conando]

I guess what I was trying to get at is that it's not a bad thing that the game is being made more accessible. Which, it clearly is. Also a bit of Devil's Advocate, I suppose.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Hero Of Fate

[Cake]

Why am I getting flashbacks of the Melee/Brawl "Competitive vs Casual" arguments again? It really does suck that there has to be such a huge divisor for games between fans. >:

[Conando]

Why am I getting flashbacks of the Melee/Brawl "Competitive vs Casual" arguments again? It really does suck that there has to be such a huge divisor for games between fans. >:

It's what nerds do. All we ever do is argue.

[Remy]

I guess what I was trying to get at is that it's not a bad thing that the game is being made more accessible. Which, it clearly is. Also a bit of Devil's Advocate, I suppose.

I suppose so. Sorry for my somewhat abrupt replies, was actually playing Blazblue whilst posting.

Accessiblity, at it's core is a good thing. If people can pick up and enjoy the game quickly, that's awesome. But the bad thing is accessibility at the cost of depth, often games made more accessible are dumbed down from the top. The gap between good players and bad players is shrunk because the entire complex game is removed and there's just the easy shit. That completely and utterly sucks. One of the reason I continue to play fighters is the good vibes from improving. It feels good to get better, to nail a difficult combo or do some complex maneuver for a clutch victory you didn't think you could do. With a dumbed down ame, you can do much unique or exciting stuff because all your moves are going to be simple, and somewhat homogenized- everyone is going to be doing the same easy shit.

One think I find somewhat worring about MVC3 is the air combos, particularly the tag ones. Which seem to be really fuckin easy to do with a few button presses, seems kind of lame to lock people into a massive combo that's piss easy to do, but I can't really judge without playing it, and MVC2 had pretty easy air combos too. (the magic combination- lk,lp,lk,lp,hp,hk or whatever) which were essentially the same.

Why am I getting flashbacks of the Melee/Brawl "Competitive vs Casual" arguments again? It really does suck that there has to be such a huge divisor for games between fans. >:

Because it's the great fighting game argument. People who love the games don't want to feel unwanted and as if trying to learn the game is a wasted effort, and casual fans don't like getting trashed by people who are better then them.

[LunarEdge]

^ Lol you've been saying what I've been thinking throughout this topic XD

It's what nerds do. All we ever do is argue.

I like to say we debate issues, not argue XD

Even if made more "accessible" to casual gamers, there's still going to be those people out there who want to be better and will practice non-stop to do so, with abusing infinite combos, assist spamming, "advance techniques," and so on and so on. Also, seeing how this game is going to have a online versus mode the chances of encountering people like this is very high and can be agitating to the "casual" player.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Lunar

[Conando]

Yeah, those air tag combos look insane. I myself was actually wondering why they made them THAT easy.

Also, seeing how this game is going to have a online versus mode the chances of encountering people like this is very high and can be agitating to the "casual" player.

A lot I know either resort to only fighting against friends, or do retarded spam tactics. Can't forget about those annoying spammers, right?

Either way, I don't think it will affect them TOO much, unless they have no friends or something. That would be kind of sad, actually.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Hero Of Fate

[Cake]

Makes sense. I imagine tournaments would be broken down into different skill classes then, like Beginner, Intermediate, Expert and Hibiki then, to make sure the casuals and the serious gamers can have their fun? Or is there something I'm missing?

[Conando]

I don't see why there couldn't be "classes". It's hard to do that online, though. I would assume less skilled players would stick to play with friends, like with a lot of online experiences.

[LunarEdge]

Maybe an experience system online pitting you against those of similar skill? Like in SSF4? I hate the tag air combos and the fact that you bounce when you hit the ground, still leaving you very vulnerable

[Conando]

That could work in the long-run, at least in theory. It would be pretty shaky at first, but once the better players get to the top I could see the less adept having a good time kicking the hell out of each other while the top players go up against those of their own skill. I highly doubt completely decimating someone remains fun for long.

[LunarEdge]

That could work in the long-run, at least in theory. It would be pretty shaky at first, but once the better players get to the top I could see the less adept having a good time kicking the hell out of each other while the top players go up against those of their own skill. I highly doubt completely decimating someone remains fun for long.

I don't know.... some people, especially fans of the fighting game genre, love that shit for some reason XD

I personally am highly competitive when it comes to any genre, but when it comes to fighters I love a challenge, I love the match to be neck to neck, hit for hit, barely winning with a bit of HP left. Completely destroying someone is boring to me

Edited June 25, 2010 by Lunar

[Remy]

Makes sense. I imagine tournaments would be broken down into different skill classes then, like Beginner, Intermediate, Expert and Hibiki then, to make sure the casuals and the serious gamers can have their fun? Or is there something I'm missing?

This is already done to an extent with matchmaking in online games,

It would be pretty much impossible to do IRL though. How would you determine the classes? Why wouldn't someone just making it into immediate just join the beginner tourney instead? etc.

[Phos]

There could be some kind of fighter's guild with registered combatants, it would be just like one of those goofy animes like the one about the kid who wants to be a master of Go.

I wasn't pleased to see that air comboing now has it's own button, rather than a combo being like an incidental thing this almost is sounding like some kind of dial a combo system here (Which is why they need to have Jin, because he's the anti dialer). You know, it's kind of hillarious thinking about it, Jin is a pretty low tier character in MvC 2, but almost everyone above him was new(ish) for that game.

Blazblue was a great example of a fighter that is both deep and accessible, it's not like this is some kind of unheard of occurence. What I think more fighters need to do is have something built in that teaches people how to play fighting games. For me, Tech Romancer kind of served as a sort of rosseta stone between party fighters like smash and traditional fighters, but that's hardly a practical solution for everyone. Blazblue had that DVD, but a funny thing happened where one of the tutorials (Tager) was a lot better than all the others resulting in almost everyone who plays Tager at least knowing what they're doing. I suppose what MikeZ did that was really special was demonstrating the properties of moves that aren't immediatly apparent, like how he's invincible during certain parts of certain moves.

I also suspect that Blazblue avoids a lot of dialing due to air combos not going A > B > C all the time.

That said, I find TvC to be a lot of fun, it seems like they focused on putting a lot of the depth in the team mechanics, stuff like supers that only work when done along with a faster one and button dedicated to assists.

Have you ever made an all Zangief team and done nothing but spam his throw assist? Shit's hillarious.

[Chooch]

Bump, but yeah whatever I feel like discussing shit. Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is something that never really pulled me in. It was fun for a little while and still rather enjoyable on the rare occasion nowadays when everyone's playing casually and picking the characters they want instead of the ones that just work really well but that's just it. The characters that work really well are the only reason the competitive scene for the game has lasted as long as it has. People praise Marvel 2's depth and complexity but 90% of the bullshit they're talking about is all accidental and I really don't think it's fair to give Capcom that much credit when they weren't even really trying to do what ended up happening.

Anyway, I guess you could say my main problem with the game is that playing who I want to play just isn't realistically viable when I'm up against your typical teams perfectly suited for competitive play. Simply put, that sucks and I don't like it.

On the other hand what I do like are fighting games like Guilty Gear Accent Core that have an extraordinary level of depth and still keep basically every character viable/usable providing you have enough skill and know-how. I think the worst match up in Accent Core is like 6-4 or something like that? Remy would probably know better than I would. But yeah, I think Arc System Works certainly deserves a lot of credit for what they did with Guilty Gear. Sure, it took them a few games and revisions but they finally got it for the most part. I absolutely adore the BlazBlue series as well. Even though it's not necessarily the most balanced fighter out there, I still appreciate it for being accessible and still having a considerable amount of depth as well as a variety of fun and interesting characters to use.

This is why I liked Tatsunoko vs. Capcom so much. Needless to say, most Marvel fanatics hate Tatsunoko. But for me, it had the same sort of appeal as BlazBlue in that the combat system was quite a bit more accessible than the previous Vs. series games and I found it a lot more fun. As of now, it's my favorite Vs. series game. Viewtiful Joe and Frank West definitely contributed to that but eh.. there's only so fair I can be when two of my absolute favorite Capcom characters are shoved into a fighting game.

Anywho, getting back to this being about Marvel 3.. I've been noticing a ton of people being put off by the way Marvel 3 is shaping up, but I'm loving it. It looks like an absolute blast to play even in the early phases and I really don't hope they change it too much so that I'm left with another Marvel 2. That'd be rather disappointing for me. To end my post I'll just say one thing.

Please, for the love of god. Give me a Power Stone character!

[Tornado]

People praise Marvel 2's depth and complexity

Who?! Give me their address so I can go upside their head with a Tournament Edition.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Tornado