Sonic Frontiers Leaks & Spoilers Thread - PLEASE READ OP

[StaticMania]

Dragons aren't real.

Though unlike Sonic where there's no actual consistency, you can actually make an argument that the juxtaposition between the cartoony & realistic is the point.

It's pointless to do so, because it's pretty obvious that it is the point, you're pretty much going back n forth between surreal cartoony locations & realistic looking locations.

You start off in a Hat Land and end on a pretty realistic looking Moon area.

[Cosmos Rogue]

4 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

People did and still do talk about how weird New Donk City is, even though Odyssey is achieving (achieved) what Frontiers is doing, putting Mario into new locations with exotic art styles. Odyssey really doesn't frame it as "not of this world", though. New Donk City is even the same city that Donkey Kong takes place in. Ironically, I find that tidbit far more jarring than the concept of a realistic city in Mario because they almost never mentioned Donkey Kong the game beforehand.

I am a little surprised that no one talks much about the Ruined Kingdom, but then again, it is a very small part of the game.

But, yeah, people did complain about New Donk City looking a little too realistic (ironically, some compared it to Sonic Adventure!). 

The answer there is that Odyssey doesn't go as far with its realistic aesthetic as Frontiers does. While the environments in Odyssey are more realistic than previous Mario games, they are still colorful and lively in a way that is consistent with what previous Mario games looked like. Frontiers on the other hand has a more washed out, almost monochromatic, and cold look to it. Those are not words I would describe any of the previous Sonic games, even the more realistic ones.

[NoKaine]

9 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Dragons aren't real.

This made me laugh.

But also, when people talk about, y'know, something like this:

and talk about how realistic it is, they aren't saying dragons are real lol. It still doesn't look anything like Mario.

Here is what a Mario dragon looks like:

These are what Dark Souls dragons look like:

Tell me which series this one looks like he belongs:

I can't believe I forgot this fucker:

It's a goddamn T-Rex. Not even colorful. It's a hyperrealistic T-Rex.

[Razule]

If the games where Sonic does things out of the norm were better, people would be too busy praising them to care about how weird the concept or aesthetic is in the first place.

Mario going to New York City or possessing realistic T-rexes would be despised and picked on if they were done badly, but they weren't.

Sonic turning into a werewolf or being resurrected by human princesses would be odd quirks at worst if they were in better games, but they weren't.

Maybe if Sonic has a 30 year streak of mostly good games, they'll be more afforded more confidence.

[StaticMania]

This is what a Mario dragon looks like...

Naturally, the 3D Mario games don't share art styles for their environment or unique enemies...

[NoKaine]

Just now, Cosmos Rogue said:

The answer there is that Odyssey doesn't go as far with its realistic aesthetic as Frontiers does.

The Ruined Dragon is certainly far more realistic than anything in Mario. He's got color, yeah.

I'd say the better answer is that the Ruined Kingdom isn't the default for Odyssey.

[MetKey]

14 minutes ago, Slash said:

I'm starting to find it a little annoying that you can plop Mario in realistic forests with realistic dinosaurs, realistic cities with realistic people, realistic ruins with a realistic looking scary dragon and nobody will bat an eye too much(except for the realistic human part. I remember the memes).

Put Sonic in some plains and suddenly it's "not Sonic".

I feel like the difference between this and Sonic Frontiers is that in Super Mario Odyssey they always managed to find something fun and interesting to twist these elements in a way where it still feels Mario-y, something that Frontiers is clearly missing

[Dummy Bear]

14 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

People did and still do talk about how weird New Donk City is, even though Odyssey is achieving (achieved) what Frontiers is doing, putting Mario into new locations with exotic art styles. Odyssey really doesn't frame it as "not of this world", though. New Donk City is even the same city that Donkey Kong takes place in. Ironically, I find that tidbit far more jarring than the concept of a realistic city in Mario because they almost never mentioned Donkey Kong the game beforehand.

I am a little surprised that no one talks much about the Ruined Kingdom, but then again, it is a very small part of the game.

But, yeah, people did complain about New Donk City looking a little too realistic (ironically, some compared it to Sonic Adventure!). 

I was honestly disappointed that they DIDN'T use stylized humans. I wanted to see what non Mario humans look like.

[NoKaine]

8 minutes ago, Razule said:

Sonic turning into a werewolf or being resurected by human princesses would be odd quirks at worst if they were in better games, but they weren't.

lmao '06 could be the best game ever and a human woman kissing a dead hedgehog would be extremely weird. That would stick out like a sore thumb. I'm all for execution over ideas, but that ain't it lol.

I don't know why the concept of Sonic turning into a werewolf, itself, is only bad because his gameplay sucks. They're two separate things. Same with Odyssey. If Odyssey sucked, I wouldn't think "oh, actually going to New York is a dumb idea." Likewise, if I really thought Mario going to New York was too weird, I wouldn't be placated with good gameplay. 

If you like a thing because "well, it's Mario", that's silly as hell. 

Reminds me though that people actually think Modern Sonic's design is bad simply because he's been in bad games (Classic Sonic has bad games too, but that somehow doesn't count). And also people who think that Paper Mario being actual paper is bad because they don't like the newer games.

I adore the new Paper Mario games using the paper aesthetic to its full potential, but oh, Sticker Star sucked and Color Splash was mediocre so I guess it's bad?

4 minutes ago, MetKey said:

I feel like the difference between this and Sonic Frontiers is that in Super Mario Odyssey they always managed to find something fun and interesting to twist these elements in a way where it still feels Mario-y, something that Frontiers is clearly missing

I have to disagree because the Ruined Kingdom and the Ruined Dragon are very far removed from Mario (and that's why I like them). 

For New Donk City, though, yeah.

[StaticMania]

11 minutes ago, Slash said:

I was honestly disappointed that they DIDN'T use stylized humans. I wanted to see what non Mario humans look like.

Officially?

Look at Wrecking Crew, Wario games, or Camelot's original Mario Sports games.

Those feature more human characters.

[Dummy Bear]

20 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

This made me laugh.

But also, when people talk about, y'know, something like this:

and talk about how realistic it is, they aren't saying dragons are real lol. It still doesn't look anything like Mario.

Here is what a Mario dragon looks like:

These are what Dark Souls dragons look like:

Tell me which series this one looks like he belongs:

I can't believe I forgot this fucker:

It's a goddamn T-Rex. Not even colorful. It's a hyperrealistic T-Rex.

It's almost as if they wanted to make an Amazing World of Gumball video game.

[StaticMania]

Wow, the T-Rex looks really bad in that area it's not supposed to be in.

[NoKaine]

3 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Wow, the T-Rex looks really bad in that area it's not supposed to be in.

Sorry, let me give you a better picture.

Ah, the natural place for T-Rexes: chasing Italian plumbers on scooters in the middle of New York.

[McGroose]

This whole debate is seriously the silliest shit to me. People think Sonic doesn't fit in Lost World, Frontiers, Adventure 1+2 (yes I've heard this before), I've even heard someone tell me he feels out of place in Unleashed. every opinion people give explaining why he fits in one place but not the other will be debated by someone who thinks the opposite. There is nothing even close to a definitive answer for this. I really like the visuals of this game.

It's a blue anthropomorphic hedgehog. He can fit in wherever he pleases. His model doesn't even feel out of place to me anyway. 

[StaticMania]

That's much better.

[Razule]

12 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

lmao '06 could be the best game ever and a human woman kissing a dead hedgehog would be extremely weird. That would stick out like a sore thumb. I'm all for execution over ideas, but that ain't it lol.

I don't know why the concept of Sonic turning into a werewolf, itself, is only bad because his gameplay sucks. They're two separate things. Same with Odyssey. If Odyssey sucked, I wouldn't think "oh, actually going to New York is a dumb idea." Likewise, if I really thought Mario going to New York was too weird, I wouldn't be placated with good gameplay. 

Reminds me though that people actually think Modern Sonic's design is bad simply because he's been in bad games (Classic Sonic has bad games too, but that somehow doesn't count). And also people who think that Paper Mario being actual paper is bad because they don't like the newer games.

That last part is kinda my point. Concepts associated with things people dislike develop negative connations. 

They might not be inherently bad on their own, or they might be the worst idea ever and actively drag the project down by existing, but the overall strength of the whole is what makes or breaks it. 

Morbius murdered several vampire movies that were in production. Spider-Man No Way Home could have killed multiverse or "old character return" movies for the general audience, but it did well (understatement of the century) and there's going to be more to come for better or worse.

[ComeAsYouAre]

24 minutes ago, Razule said:

If the games where Sonic does things out of the norm were better, people would be too busy praising them to care about how weird the concept or aesthetic is in the first place.

Mario going to New York City or possessing realistic T-rexes would be despised and picked on if they were done badly, but they weren't.

Sonic turning into a werewolf or being resurrected by human princesses would be odd quirks at worst if they were in better games, but they weren't.

Maybe if Sonic has a 30 year streak of mostly good games, they'll be more afforded more confidence.

This is what I said before. People would be willing to accept aesthetics they don't like if the quality wasn't so inconsistent 

 

Instead we ended up in this weird childish "War" between Sonic fans vs Each other and Vs Journalists and Vs Sonic Team itself over Very Minor stuff 

 

Sonic isn't the only fandom with this kinda issue, but it's one of the Top 20 worst about it at least

1 minute ago, Razule said:

That last part is kinda my point. Concepts associated with things people dislike develop negative connations. 

The Zero Suit is an example of this. It gets associated with Other M and bad handling of the franchise by Nintendo by Certain Metroid Purists.  

 

 

[NoKaine]

4 minutes ago, Razule said:

Morbius murdered several vampire movies that were in production. Spider-Man No Way Home could have killed multiverse or "old character return" movies for the general audience, but it did well (understatement of the century) and there's going to be more to come for better or worse.

I can sort of believe Morbius ruined vampires for people, but if No Way Home flopped, it wouldn't even stop multiverse MCU stories. And there's already a lot of MCU fatigue despite the fact that most of them are successful and highly-rated. Except Eternals. Now that's dead. 

I get your point about negative association, but I don't think it's really universal and it doesn't make much sense on its own. 

[StaticMania]

5 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

The Zero Suit is an example of this. It gets associated with Other M and bad handling of the franchise by Nintendo by Certain Metroid Purists.  

Sounds more like those people were unaware the Zero Suit existed before that game and/or just dislike seeing Samus out of her power suit for any amount of time...which is what happened in the game.

[Natie]

I don't really care about whether or not Sonic fits in the world, I just wish he had a more interesting world to be in.

[ComeAsYouAre]

4 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Sounds more like those people were unaware the Zero Suit existed before that game and/or just dislike seeing Samus out of her power suit for any amount of time...which is what happened in the game.

Don't ask me. A lot of them will just tell you you aren't a True Metroid fan if you like the Zero Suit or Don't Prefer the first Metroid Prime Samus design and accuse you of being a Other M fan 

 

Classic purists are nothing compared to that irrationality 

[Dummy Bear]

I just want to note that I only brought up Odyssey not as an example of Mario "getting a free pass" but because I think this whole artstyle argument is stupid.

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

Don't ask me. A lot of them will just tell you you aren't a True Metroid fan if you like the Zero Suit or Don't Prefer the first Metroid Prime Samus design and accuse you of being a Other M fan 

Classic purists are nothing compared to that irrationality 

Metroid M was technically my first Metroid game, but I realize it is not the best. Still, I would say that just because I played that game in the series, me realizing its faults makes me not an Other M fan. Those purist would be mistaken if they thought I was a Other M fan if I liked those other things they don't like.

[LegoFedora]

1 hour ago, Jake_LeOFFICIAL said:

I feel like more people probably wouldn't be "in a bubble" if SEGA properly showed off this game that's releasing this year instead of being secretive and sneaky about the game. They have had an entire month to show off the game in a good light, and they've squandered it by their strategy here.

The only reason I can think of for SEGA doing this, is to treat this game like Elden Ring was marketed. That is to say, absolutely not at all.

Everyone who played Elden Ring went in fresh and only knowing maybe 5% of the entire game, and as a result a lot of the fun of early ER was people showing off "Hey if you go to X then you can find Y item". This could be what SEGA is trying to shoot for with Forces, that same sense of discovery/blindness that gets people talking about locations and where X secret is. It's not a great marketing strategy, but that's my best guess as to why they're so reluctant to show much. Especially since Forces is one of (if not the first) sonic game to actually place heavy emphasis on exploration.

One thing SEGA forgets about doing it like this as compared to FromSoft, is reputation. From has the reputation they need to barely show off a game and still have a lot of people excited for it. People can buy a fromsoft game while knowing nothing about it, and be pretty confident that it'll be pretty good as history has shown. The problem is: Sonic Team does not have this luxury. Probably why it's blowing up in their face.

[herefor1reason]

I think a lot of the problem, aside from Sonic's more general issues of being consistent in its artistic influences, is that the stylized realism of the Starfall Islands feels less like a conscious art design decision and more like something incidental. It doesn't strike me as the sort of thing the art director made a call to do as part of a strategy for visually differentiating between Sonic's existing art direction, mostly because Sonic hasn't had an art direction specific to Sonic since...I wanna say 06, but even that's only in the character designs of the anthros...Sonic...Riders? Battle? Rush Adventure I guess? Whether you see the aesthetic as good or not, it's hard to argue that Sonic's visuals haven't been the most consistent thing for a while, so differentiating it with a muted version of an existing, more Pixar, western CG influenced aesthetic, doesn't seem to be the goal here.

 

I think, on its own merits, it looks fine. The rails, and other automated game objects feel pretty intrusive, visually, but as a mysterious island presumably once inhabited by a now absent, likely dead, civilization, the muted, semi melancholy, stylized realism fits...But still, it doesn't look specifically like Sonic. Take the interactive game objects and Sonic out of the equation and it looks like it's from a different game series. Maybe that's intentional, but I don't really feel like it's an unfair criticism to say that the decision to take Sonic out of his element, stylistically, like this should probably be the sort of thing you decide very carefully. Even from a game design perspective it makes a ton of sense not to have loops and corkscrews dotting the landscape. Sonic won't be using preserved momentum to launch himself around the landscape in a way where those level design structures would be useful and not automated all to hell (like they've cared about having to do that anyway though). I get it, but I still think it's not the best call. Ignoring the fact that I think removing Sonic's trademark momentum, rolling, slope physics gameplay was, is, and will always be the worst decision the series could've possibly made (I will never budge from this position even a millimeter, not here to have that discussion anyway, not  the point), I can't see the point  in taking another one of the surreal visual design elements core to Sonic's world design, the skate park, rollercoaster, non-Euclidean geometry ass settings Sonic was made for out of the game entirely. There were other ways to differentiate this Island from Sonic's world without removing the stuff that makes it recognizable as from Sonic. Incorporating these visual elements more naturally into the existing environment alone would've gone a long way. Doesn't even need a lot. Hell, having crumbling stone loops overgrown with moss and weeds would've fit perfectly, made it feel like Sonic's world, without diminishing any of the mystery. Just differentiating color palettes and textures goes pretty far in changing the feel of a game's world. i don't think anyone would mistake Emerald Hill for Chemical plant, but you can tell at a glance they belong in a Sonic game. I mean, a huge part of those games' aesthetics were influenced by the needs of the underlying game design, Sonic's character controller and physics namely, but that's kind of the point right? By taking Sonic out of that gameplay context you're left only with the aesthetic reference point, and you take THAT away, and you're left with ONLY the character designs, for the visual cohesion, the only thing still making this look like a Sonic game.

 

I just don't buy the idea that people saying this looks out of place are just asking for "more Green Hill checkerboards".  It's really reductive and unhelpful. I don't think it's an unfair criticism, or untrue even, to say it doesn't look like Sonic. There's more to Sonic's art style (and he DOES have one, another topic) than the textures and lighting they're using for the environments. The actual shape of the environments play a big part in the look of Sonic's world. Maybe it's unfair to judge the visual design of this game for what it isn't doing, or trying something like this to stand out (I think given the inconsistency and adherence to a general stylized realism look, it's not standing out as much as it wants to, visually, but I digress), but this IS a Sonic the Hedgehog game. Fair or not, it WILL be judged in comparison to Sonic games of the past, on every front, and I don't think it's unreasonable for people to do so.