Sonic Frontiers Leaks & Spoilers Thread - PLEASE READ OP

[DaBigJ]

I don't care if there's no 2D.

I don't care if there's no 3D.

All I want is to have decent to good level design that I can run through and replay constantly to tighten up my skills. It doesn't even need to be on par with Generations, just. be. fun.

[Wraith]

8 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

 

I know this place has a hard-on for Adventure but I'm trying to figure out what "Kinda telling that Sonic Adventure doesn't have either of them" is supposed to mean. As if Sonic Team went "should we add a mechanic where Sonic can side step extremely quickly while running forward as well as a drifting mechanic to make tight turns? Nahhhhh, we're making Sonic Adventure, which only requires the best and brightest 3D mechanics that make Sonic unique. Now let's add a move that requires you to stand perfectly still while holding the B button so Sonic can run up very specific lines of rings we place in the level! THAT'S an excellent mechanic, unlike those!"

 

I realized this point didn't make sense and edited it out so I'll concede here.

 

Quote

Drift does a significant amount of work in shaking up gameplay, again, they're a big, huge missing part in Forces, and Colors relegating it to "drift sections" also makes it feel empty. Drifting is a naturally fun feeling move and even has a skill ceiling. Makes a level more involved if you just simply have a section that can only be accessed by drifting. It also rewards you with more boost energy, which you can use in tandem for even more speed. And all of this requires that you be good enough 

The drift doesn't shake up the gameplay in a meaningful way because there just aren't many sections where you can apply it meaningfully. Generations uses it a lot better than Unleashed, but even then it's telegraphed 'hard turn' sections where the obvious choice is to use it. Generations does a good job in placing more shortcuts in these sections and making them more controllable but it's not enough for me to be excited about more.

Maybe if they had shown some growth from Sonic Generations and not actively, dramatically regressed as level designers I'd see your point more, but for now Sonic Generations is the most well designed Sonic game since the boost games started and there's still tons of room for improvement.

[NoKaine]

14 minutes ago, Wraith said:

IThe drift doesn't shake up the gameplay in a meaningful way because there just aren't many sections where you can apply it meaningfully. Generations uses it a lot better than Unleashed, but even then it's telegraphed 'hard turn' sections where the obvious choice is to use it. Generations does a good job in placing more shortcuts in these sections and making them more controllable but it's not enough for me to be excited about more.

Maybe if they had shown some growth from Sonic Generations and not actively, dramatically regressed as level designers I'd see your point more, but for now Sonic Generations is the most well designed Sonic game since the boost games started and there's still tons of room for improvement.

If a mechanic sucks because the level design never takes advantage of it, then that's on the level design. Adventure can suck if the level design never makes use of it (hello, '06).

Even in those telegraphed sections (nevermind that drift has more applicability in even straightforward sections), there can easily be variety in having sections that can only be accessed by drifting, no different in concept than using momentum on a ramp to access a higher part of the level. A problem you highlight can also be addressed simply by having wider corridors (not even necessarily open, just wider) that give you the literal space to use the drift freely.

I'm not even arguing that there isn't room for improvement??? I'm arguing against the idea that there is no improvement or any meaningful use of 3D in boost games. You were saying that there's no mechanical difference between 2D and 3D in boosting and I said "yeah there is" and you replied "yeah, but basically the level design doesn't use them much" and I'm like yeah... because they don't use 3D a lot? Which is why people want more 3D?

All this being said, ironically, the Drift doesn't look like its in Frontiers anyway... but it does have better turning and controls than the other boost games, so let's see where they'll go from there. I'll be pretty saddened if it isn't, to be honest.

There was one alleged leaker who said the Spin Dash is in and it basically works like the Drift... I doubt them but it's not too shabby of an idea.

[Wraith]

16 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

If a mechanic sucks because the level design never takes advantage of it, then that's on the level design. Adventure can suck if the level design never makes use of it (hello, '06).

Even in those telegraphed sections (nevermind that drift has more applicability in even straightforward sections), there can easily be variety in having sections that can only be accessed by drifting, no different in concept than using momentum on a ramp to access a higher part of the level. A problem you highlight can also be addressed simply by having wider corridors (not even necessarily open, just wider) that give you the literal space to use the drift freely.

I'm not even arguing that there isn't room for improvement??? I'm arguing against the idea that there is no improvement or any meaningful use of 3D in boost games. You were saying that there's no mechanical difference between 2D and 3D in boosting and I said "yeah there is" and you replied "yeah, but basically the level design doesn't use them much" and I'm like yeah... because they don't use 3D a lot? Which is why people want more 3D?

 

.

I said there isn't a ton of difference. You haven't really convinced me otherwise. You're right that they could fix it in the future but that doesn't seem to fit the way they like to approach these games. 

 

[LegoFedora]

If this game is running off the Lost World engine/premise, then I am even more excited in seeing what they do now. Lost World had a lot of potential, I always wanted to see a more polished version of that concept in a Lost World 2. A parkour-heavy moveset fits sonic perfectly with his higher speed gameplay (and him often shown doing parkour-y things in cutscenes/art and whatnot)

So if Frontiers truly does control like Lost World, then I say let's go. It's no LW2 but damn, I'll take what I can get.

[Celestia]

The drift would actually be pretty fun when navigating the islands so I'll be disappointed if it's not in there. Not too surprising since it seems to have been dropped entirely but they kinda just do things arbitrarily sometimes all the time so it could go either way.

I'd say we would have seen it by now 1) this game's marketing am I right gamers? and 2) uhh it might be on the skill tree I guess?

[ZinogreVolt]

Drift seems like a pretty huge part of Sonic's core moveset. While I'd be happy if it was in the game, I'd be annoyed that you have to unlock it.

[StaticMania]

Drift is more useful in open areas like this game has and not situational usage in the standard Boost level design.

I say this, naturally, yet the latest gameplay video showed Sonic doing the paraloop thing at full running speed.

So you clearly have more control over Sonic's turning and therefore the drift isn't gonna be that useful.

[McGroose]

Commentary from someone who actually played the game. Highlights that stand out for this:

-The demo was pretty bad from a technical standpoint. She says it was pixelated, hard to make out finer details, had occasional FPS issues. This doesn't mean the game overall had these issues, but that the way the demo was setup caused this.
I'm starting to think that the dude who said he played the game without signing the NDA and had a lot of negative graphical things to say was right lol

-The controls were smooth overall, no issues there. 

-The open world part is not fun, it's really boring. It doesn't feel empty, but it needs more personality for sure and it feels very generic. 

-The fun parts of what she played, she cannot talk about. She's almost certainly referring to Cyberspace. 

-She says that you don't have to worry about the game overall, despite the bland open world. 

[The Deleter]

Gee I wonder what design possibilities a drift can have in a 3D game with responsive turning controls. Sure would be nice to get rid of whatever that is and lock it behind a button and arbitrary turning radius again...

Spoiler

The drift is DEAD and it is STAYING DEAD; all you deviants return to your caves from whence you came, your false god has already been cast out!!!1

 

[Pumkin_22]

1 hour ago, McGroose said:

Commentary from someone who actually played the game. Highlights that stand out for this:

-The demo was pretty bad from a technical standpoint. She says it was pixelated, hard to make out finer details, had occasional FPS issues. This doesn't mean the game overall had these issues, but that the way the demo was setup caused this.
I'm starting to think that the dude who said he played the game without signing the NDA and had a lot of negative graphical things to say was right lol

-The controls were smooth overall, no issues there. 

-The open world part is not fun, it's really boring. It doesn't feel empty, but it needs more personality for sure and it feels very generic. 

-The fun parts of what she played, she cannot talk about. She's almost certainly referring to Cyberspace. 

-She says that you don't have to worry about the game overall, despite the bland open world. 

Generally people who didn't play it for long enough have more negative things to say, while the people who understood it quickly/played it for longer had only overwhelmingly positive things to say about it.

[Slashy]

LOTS of cyberspace stage footage in a relatively clear quality.  I think this may not be enough to win people over. SEGA may be nearing the point of no return to win people over with this game.

[Cornelius Fudge]

I'd imagine Alanah Pearce did get to experience some cyberspace gameplay during her time at the Summer Fest since the cyberspace levels were playable in the demo. Based on what she said, I'm going to refrain from judgement before critiquing the game. But I can't deny that it's concerning that they're revisiting past areas when players have been openly against that.

[NoKaine]

3 hours ago, Slashy said:

LOTS of cyberspace stage footage in a relatively clear quality.  I think this may not be enough to win people over. SEGA may be nearing the point of no return to win people over with this game.

What a dramatic statement since the perception has been better since the new open world footage was released.

Considering that, again, people who played the demo really liked the linear levels, even if they didn't like the op world, and had nothing but good things to say, yeah, I'd wait and see. Though anyone strictly disappointed in the reused level theme, I don't think that good level design would sway them.

The rails section is like every three-line grinding section in the beginning of every boost game (not just Forces) while the platforming section does look more interesting with the implied high-path, low-path and platforming aspects.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

3 hours ago, Slashy said:

I think this may not be enough to win people over. SEGA may be nearing the point of no return to win people over with this game.

Have you not been paying attention? Ever since the better footage has come out. The ovtmood has far shifted from gloom and doom towards the game.

[NoKaine]

6 hours ago, McGroose said:

.I'm starting to think that the dude who said he played the game without signing the NDA and had a lot of negative graphical things to say was right lol

Pierce said she had to sign an NDA so that only makes his testimony worse.

It's bizarre because it's easy to believe he watched the game. He was at SGF. He had footage. You can still tell the graphics and framerate just by watching. But his story of how he was able to play the game contradicts everyone else's. Everyone had to sign an NDA and make an appointment, but he didn't? The only exceptions seem like XPlay, but they are big people in the industry and know people in SEGA.

EDIT: And leaking the Sky Sanctuary video (and having to censor someone in the video) is DEFINITELY breaking NDA, so either he never signed one (and thus didn't play the game) or he's seriously risking his future career to call a Sonic game mid lmao.

It also does seem like there is a memory leak issue with the demo, though. XPlay also says that the game looked and played much better in the beginning but got worse over time. If that's the case, I'm actually not worried about performance at all.

[NoKaine]

lol I found a video that literally ported Generations' Sky Sanctuary into Forces and it really shows how Forces' controls and physics can make even good level design look terrible and unfun.

I also like how the level had to be edited because Generations' level design straight up does not support Forces' gameplay.

It takes four whole minutes to beat the stage too. That's something.

[Diogenes]

5 hours ago, Slashy said:

LOTS of cyberspace stage footage in a relatively clear quality.  I think this may not be enough to win people over. SEGA may be nearing the point of no return to win people over with this game.

I know it's not much footage to go off of but man this is looking like the most Straight Line Zone that Sonic's ever been. Like they made an open world for you to run around freely in and decided to balance it out that turning doesn't have to exist in cyberspace levels.

[Fyrwudz]

Yeah, not overly enthused at all about Sky Sanctuary returning, and even less enthused about all the cyberspace levels potentially being extractions from Generations. I know it's difficult to make games, and I know there'd be a lot of effort involved in constructing a brand new open world setting and new action stages to go along with that... BUT when it's been 5 years since Forces, which itself was in the oven for 4-5 years since Lost World (and also did a lot of stage recycling itself), you kinda wonder what the hell the team have actually been doing for nigh on 10 years. Seen it said here already, but I do think they could have at least used those recycled assets but remixed them in a clever way that would have essentially given us new zones. 

Recycled cyberspace stages on top of an open world which itself is lacking in visual identity isn't really winning me over. Of course, it hasn't helped that they've spent a lot of time over the last decade bogged-down reinventing the wheel and stuck in conceptual hell. Here's hoping that Frontiers really does act as a solid foundation for the next game, giving them much more time to innovate more when it comes to action stages etc.

I do kinda miss the dark ages now. Yeah, a lot of the quality was questionable, but at least we weren't waiting 5 years for a game which is 50% (I'm guessing here) recycled zones.

 

[NoKaine]

Well, we have eleven days to see if there is anything more about these levels, including whether the returning stages will actually be remixed and have new additions, whether there's original zones at all, and even what the in-game context of these levels even are.

So that's fun.

Doesn't help that these levels are what we know the least about by far. 

[VO.SUPER]

My hope is that the June 29th footage shows something that makes these levels at least visually and mechanically interesting. 

Don't just pull the footage from this demo that we're seeing as unoriginal as fuck. 

[jungle_penguins]

I am curious on what takes them so long nowadays. Granted am pretty sure the 2000s was just a mad dash to get everything out and that must've been painful, but a mainline game every 4-5 years (occurring twice including Frontiers) is strange for a franchise that has/had an emphasis on being disposable.

[___-_]

Yea, I didn't really wanna say anything yet because I still wanna kindly give this team the benefit of a doubt until I see some levels in full, but these snippets... still looking like Forces, man.

I know it's been rumored that the cyberspace zones were to be more "boost era" and "traditional" like... but I didn't think they'd literally be them like straight up 1-1. I thought they'd have at least utilized Sonic's new 360 handling to help shape some of the level design, but I still keep seeing these tight corridors instead.

Even worse (where most of my concerns lie), they're still doing this "place 3 unavoidable assets here" thing they've been doing since then... I'm not seeing how this new control agency could be utilized properly if they're still relying on this shit.

For me, it makes no difference whether there's "2D" in the game or not if they're still simply shifting all of its problems into another perspective. For what I'm seeing right now, instead of holding "left to right", you're just going "down to up".... which might as well be "left to right" for as much agency they allow you. For all these clips I've seen, Sonic is always smack dab in the middle of the screen with the corridors beside him being as consistently tight as ever, only ever leading to one direction, going hand in hand with the evenly spread out assets still removing as much agency as there could have been to even go about these corridors. I don't want to see that shit no more. That's not utilizing 3D space at all. It's missing the entire point of why we're even looking at Sonic's left and right ass cheek the whole time. 

Give me some of this for a change, Sonic team:

Something that stands out. Something actually using 3D space. Just let me go about a level differently for a fucking change man. It's been yeeeeeears ffs lol.

[NoKaine]

SEGA's Sonic output is diminishing significantly in general--pretty much every spin-off is dead. DIMPS doesn't make handheld games or even handheld versions of mainline games. And Sonic Team isn't forced to make like three spin-offs on top of the big 3D game.

In Frontiers' case, they started working on a game as soon as Forces released, scrapped their first idea in progress, properly started making Frontiers as is in 2019 (per the playtest leaks), and faced hurdles due to COVID which may have influenced its year-long internal delay.

SEGA is getting a lot of money (presumably) from Atlus and RGG so perhaps they are not as reliant on Sonic as much. In exchange for games, though, we got a lot more multimedia projects. 

[VO.SUPER]

Frontiers is just in the unfortunate spot of having been developed during COVID with a conservatively sized team. And the team's size is probably so conservative because SoJ doesn't have the faith to put more staff onto the project even when it's looking to be ambitious. So corners have to be cut, which is absolutely frustrating where those corners are. 

These levels could be some of the best designed ever, but there's only so much of the same asset you can take again and again.