Sonic Frontiers Leaks & Spoilers Thread - PLEASE READ OP

[Wraith]

10 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

They did. The returning levels. Those have the art style that suits Sonic's identity. That is because they are supposed to show what "Sonic's world" looks like. 

The open world does not look like Sonic's world. Sonic Team's decision to make the open world look the way it does is acknowledging the fact that it does not look like a typical Sonic game. Same with the weird geometric enemies. It would not work if the world did look like a Sonic world, and the enemies were Sonic enemies.

People recognizing that it does not look like Sonic is what Sonic Team intends.

This is not a perfect execution, obviously. The world could look more interesting without being "Sonic." Things like the randomly floating rails is a weird compromise. And the cyberspace levels do not have to be literally Sky Sanctuary for this work.

But it's a pretty simple premise to accept. Sonic is in a new, unfamiliar world. It literally does not look like a Sonic world. There are Sonic locations from past games to sell the contrast. "This is what Sonic looks like."

They're not "concerned", by the way. Pretty sure they made this decision pretty early on. 

The Starfall Islands don't look alien. It looks like a normal forest area. There have been plenty of completely normal looking forest areas in the Sonic series before now.

[NoKaine]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The Starfall Islands don't look alien. It looks like a normal forest area. There have been plenty of completely normal looking forest areas in the Sonic series before now.

Then surely people wouldn't be talking about how it doesn't look like Sonic and how it should be more Green Hill or something if that were the case. 

The enemies definitely look alien too. The ruins and statues simply imply a lost civilization.

It is alien to Sonic and it is embodied in its art style being dissimilar to the other games and also the narrative literally saying "this is not what Sonic is used to." Those completely normal looking forest areas previously were treated as that: completely normal. That's just how Sonic is. Sonic had a game where he goes through real-life locations and no character acted like that was abnormal (tbh, they barely reacted to the fact that the planet was split apart, so they're just used to weird shit lol).

[Wraith]

14 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Then surely people wouldn't be talking about how it doesn't look like Sonic and how it should be more Green Hill or something if that were the case. 

The enemies definitely look alien too. The ruins and statues simply imply a lost civilization.

It is alien to Sonic and it is embodied in its art style being dissimilar to the other games and also the narrative literally saying "this is not what Sonic is used to." Those completely normal looking forest areas previously were treated as that: completely normal. That's just how Sonic is. Sonic had a game where he goes through real-life locations and no character acted like that was abnormal (tbh, they barely reacted to the fact that the planet was split apart, so they're just used to weird shit lol).

You're trying to frame an out of universe complaint as an in-universe one. Sonic is literally rendered in a different style than the world around him. That's the complaint. It's an overall lack of cohesion that the generations levels could end up drawing attention to depending on how they look.

 

 

[NoKaine]

12 minutes ago, Wraith said:

You're trying to frame an out of universe complaint as an in-universe one. Sonic is literally rendered in a different style than the world around him. That's the complaint. It's an overall lack of cohesion that the generations levels could end up drawing attention to depending on how they look.

The complaint is largely made by people who don't know about the cyberspace levels at all and come to believe that the open world is not only all of the game but is supposed to be the direction of Sonic going forward.

Which is part of why I say when the levels are properly revealed the reception would be much warmer. People who played them also think that they do a good job in bridging the contrast. 

Sonic Team is playing on the expectation that people don't think the open world looks like Sonic to ironically form the identity of the game; a game where Sonic treads into uncharted territory. To ground the game and not alienate those who think that it's going too far, they have levels that do look like Sonic levels. "In-universe", these levels are ironically fake, if "cyberspace" is what it sounds. In-universe, the two types of settings are explicitly stated to be different. The contrast isn't a problem. It's the point. 

Now, if people did think "this just looks like a Sonic game", then Sonic Team would have failed in this task. Whether people think the open world looks interesting is a separate issue from whether it looks like a Sonic world. 

This is all a completely valid narrative decision that is used in many different media, including media that evoke the same effect by entirely different art styles and even mediums. Cause a sense of unease and perhaps mystery through two strong contrasts. Perhaps that was even the point of making a human world to begin with. But Frontiers chooses to actually make this contrast part of the story.

[Hidden04]

I'm pretty sure the leaks said there was a Green Hill Clone that used Gens assets. But was not the same Green Hill stage.

[NoKaine]

The Demon Slayer leak talked about "Spring Valley" being the "Green Hill equivalent" and "Metallic Metropolis" being Speed Highway but at sunset.

A few other leaks talked about "Green Hill clones" and how the cyberspace levels looked very much like traditional levels. And one leak talked about how the levels would flicker and change to indicate you're in cyberspace.  There's a redditor who claims to have played the demo and said that they're "inspired" and "different locations" but otherwise very, very similar. Take this one with a grain of salt.

About every single one of them cited Unleashed / Generations-style. But only a few of them said the assets were the same.

[StaticMania]

7 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

The complaint is largely made by people who don't know about the cyberspace levels at all...

Is causing a very negative feeling that the part of the world we'll be seeing the most is the one that doesn't look like Sonic...

[NoKaine]

4 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Is causing a very negative feeling that the part of the world we'll be seeing the most is the one that doesn't look like Sonic...

I really don't see that as a negative so long as the cyberspace levels get equal marketing attention and they actually talk about the damn story. 

Like I said, I think people will be more receptive to the idea that the open zone looks like this for a reason that isn't "this is what we think Sonic looks like." 

The open worlds are definitely going to be the majority of the playtime, but that's not really a problem to me inherently.

I would only ever be bothered if this is what the series would be going forward, which it won't because, again, the point is that this is atypical for Sonic. 

[Wraith]

27 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

The complaint is largely made by people who don't know about the cyberspace levels at all and come to believe that the open world is not only all of the game but is supposed to be the direction of Sonic going forward.

Which is part of why I say when the levels are properly revealed the reception would be much warmer. People who played them also think that they do a good job in bridging the contrast. 

Sonic Team is playing on the expectation that people don't think the open world looks like Sonic to ironically form the identity of the game; a game where Sonic treads into uncharted territory. To ground the game and not alienate those who think that it's going too far, they have levels that do look like Sonic levels. "In-universe", these levels are ironically fake, if "cyberspace" is what it sounds. The contrast isn't a problem. It's the point. 

Now, if people did think "this just looks like a Sonic game", then Sonic Team would have failed in this task. Whether people think the open world looks interesting is a separate issue from whether it looks like a Sonic world. 

This is all a completely valid narrative decision that is used in many different media, including media that evoke the same effect by entirely different art styles and even mediums. Cause a sense of unease and perhaps mystery through two strong contrasts. Perhaps that was even the point of making a human world to begin with. But Frontiers chooses to actually make this contrast part of the story.

Maybe you'd have a point if there was a consistent artstyle to the sonic series that they were deliberatey breaking from, but like I said earlier there are places on Sonic's planet that already look like this. My assumption when I first saw the game was that it took place somewhere on earth and that the lack of cohesion was just a 'return to form' after the series wavered away from realistic styles for a bit.

It doesn't have the affect you're talking about because the artstyle in the series isn't consistent to start with so the impression it gives off is another clunkily executed art shift to add to the pile. This isn't a Kingdom Hearts 4 "Something's off" moment that caused a ton of intrigue within the fanbase. Even if it was...I was still vocal about the fact that I didn't like how Kingdom Hearts 4 looked, regardless of intent.

[NoKaine]

8 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Maybe you'd have a point if there was a consistent artstyle to the sonic series that they were deliberatey breaking from

If there wasn't, then people wouldn't be complaining that it doesn't look like Sonic and show that their idea of Sonic is literally Green Hill. 

If "Frontiers looks like a Sonic game" was an opinion people had, the reception of the game would be very different.

8 minutes ago, Wraith said:

My assumption when I first saw the game was that it took place somewhere on earth and that the lack of cohesion was just a 'return to form' after the series wavered away from realistic styles for a bit.

I've talked to people about Frontiers and there are people who are genuinely unaware that the recent games have been much more cartoony. They still have Adventure and '06 in their minds for what m

Even so, they still think Frontiers' "not Sonic." 

8 minutes ago, Wraith said:

This isn't a Kingdom Hearts 4 "Something's off" moment that caused a ton of intrigue within the fanbase.

Kingdom Hearts is the WORST example to bring up here lmao. People make fun of the fact that anime boy Sora and obvious cartoons Donald and Goofy go into worlds like Pirates of the Caribbean looking like this:

And reminder that Kingdom Hearts used to look like this:

Some people still refuse the basic conceit of the series, which is essentially Frontiers but if EVERY open world was a DRASTICALLY different art style but Sonic never changes. The rare exceptions are worlds like Timeless River (which is appealing BECAUSE Sora now matches the world). Otherwise, the most Sora, Donald, and Goofy get are costumes based on the world.

But overall Kingdom Hearts is a game that very much succeeds on the notion of constantly having a contrast between art styles.

Kingdom Hearts IV is the first game to actually make Sora adapt to the art style of a new world as a regular thing and some people are actually reprehensive of that too. They hated how it changed Sora's design. It's also kind of incongruent with KHIII because Sora still looked the same in Quadratum in that game.

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, NoKaine said:

But it's a pretty simple premise to accept. Sonic is in a new, unfamiliar world. It literally does not look like a Sonic world. There are Sonic locations from past games to sell the contrast. "This is what Sonic looks like."

If this is some "new" world, and not just a part of Sonic's world, what is it? Is the entire island chain some kind of cyberspace simulation? If the goal was to make the islands feel "off" because they don't match the style of Sonic's world, I consider it a failure, because what it actually ends up doing is making Sonic look alien and artificial.

1 hour ago, NoKaine said:

Then surely people wouldn't be talking about how it doesn't look like Sonic and how it should be more Green Hill or something if that were the case. 

People complained about those previous settings too. "This doesn't look 'Sonic' " is not a complaint unique to Frontiers. And when the series has already treated a place like Kingdom Valley is a completely normal part of Sonic's world, Frontiers' overworld doesn't come off like a conscious attempt to make a world that feels off, it seems like Sonic Team making the same mistake again.

45 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

The complaint is largely made by people who don't know about the cyberspace levels at all and come to believe that the open world is not only all of the game but is supposed to be the direction of Sonic going forward.

Ok but I know about the cyberspace levels and I am making the complaint right now. The cyberspace levels do not somehow make Sonic and this overworld look acceptable together. No narrative is going to make it look good.

[NoKaine]

29 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If this is some "new" world, and not just a part of Sonic's world, what is it?

Wha--I--w--

I don't have the game, bro! Gotta wait until it comes out! Pretty sure that question is, like, the driving force lmao.

Like, this game needs a story trailer, definitely, but they're not going to tell you the entire story before the game comes out, lmao.

29 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If the goal was to make the islands feel "off" because they don't match the style of Sonic's world, I consider it a failure, because what it actually ends up doing is making Sonic look alien and artificial.

There is literally no difference between "the world is alien to Sonic" and "Sonic is alien to the world."  It is literally the same thing. 

29 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

People complained about those previous settings too. "This doesn't look 'Sonic' " is not a complaint unique to Frontiers.

It's the first game to say that itself, though. Those previous settings did treat those drastically different world as "Sonic." Sonic could be in Green Hill or a city full of realistic humans and the game wants you to believe these are both 100% the same world.

Frontiers is actively saying "no, Sonic does not belong here. This is different." 

29 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

And when the series has already treated a place like Kingdom Valley is a completely normal part of Sonic's world, Frontiers' overworld doesn't come off like a conscious attempt to make a world that feels off, it seems like Sonic Team making the same mistake again.

Nobody but diehard Sonic fans remember Kingdom Valley lmao. Even people who make '06 jokes don't remember Kingdom Valley, I assure you.

6-year-old Timmy, the IGN reviewer, and videogamedunkey all have one thing in common, and it's not "thinking of Kingdom Valley when playing Sonic Frontiers." I think you're under(over?)estimating what the average person thinks of Sonic.

Once again, I have to say, people would not say "this doesn't look like Sonic", if they don't think that Sonic has some established art style, and that this game's open zone contradicts it. Iizuka would not answer that he expected people to think "this doesn't look like Sonic" and subsequently say that he believes that people will understand when they see more of the game. 

This is not an accident. This is not a mistake. Sonic Team knows what they're doing. Whether they're doing it right is up in the air. But it is very much a conscious decision. And I don't really know why you're so against this idea, besides, I guess, hating the idea that Sonic Team is "competent" in any conceivable fashion.

Like, look, you don't have to like it even if it is conscious. You may even think of better ways to do it. But it is what they're doing.

29 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Ok but I know about the cyberspace levels and I am making the complaint right now.The cyberspace levels do not somehow make Sonic and this overworld look acceptable together. No narrative is going to make it look good.

Do you really want me to believe that you approached Frontiers with an open mind? Because I don't lmao.

 

[Diogenes]

15 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Sonic Team knows what they're doing.

I started working on a proper reply to all that but all this really deserves is, lol, lmao

[NoKaine]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I started working on a proper reply to all that but all this really deserves is, lol, lmao

I mean, thanks for proving my thesis. You have no actual opinion or thought on any of this at all whatsoever, you just hate the fact that I'm even implying that Sonic Team is making a conscious choice to do something.

Like, did Iizuka actually fuck your wife or something? All Sonic Team does is make bad video games sometimes. Now you're trying to argue against basic narrative choices because that might break your cherished fantasy of Sonic Team being full of people who spend years on video games to spite you, specifically.

They could do the opposite and you'd whine about that too. And I don't get it. I really don't. 

Sonic Team made the fucking open world realistic on purpose. They expected that people would "that's not Sonic." Sorry if that makes you upset, for some reason.

 

[Diogenes]

Oh I agree that they are making conscious, deliberate choices.

They're real dumb ones, though.

[NoKaine]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Oh I agree that they are making conscious, deliberate choices.

They're real dumb ones, though.

Cool. You'd think that no matter what they do, but alright. 

[Kuzu]

@NoKaine Most of what you're saying relies on the assumption that this is an intentional departure from "normal" Sonic aesthetics to serve the narrative, ala Kingdom Hearts.

But the thing is, most of the art shifts that have happened in the series serve no real purpose. Kingdom Hearts' art shifts are meant to convey how each world is literally its own universe with its own set of rules, which is literally baked into the narrative. Sora and Co being different is meant to convey how they literally don't belong in those universes.

Sonic's art shifts are never justified. The art shifts that have been happening since 1998 serve no narrative function and just there because Sonic Team felt like being different without really thinking about it.

Ita why we get shit like Sonic and Elise existing in the same plane and nobody points out how odd it is, and its just something the audience is meant to accept at face value.

 

That's why people have a problem there's no sense of cohesion with these constant art shifts.

[NoKaine]

4 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

@NoKaine Most of what you're saying relies on the assumption that this is an intentional departure from "normal" Sonic aesthetics to serve the narrative, ala Kingdom Hearts.

But the thing is, most of the art shifts that have happened in the series serve no real purpose. Kingdom Hearts' art shifts are meant to convey how each world is literally its own universe with its own set of rules, which is literally baked into the narrative. Sora and Co being different is meant to convey how they literally don't belong in those universes.

Sonic's art shifts are never justified. The art shifts that have been happening since 1998 serve no narrative function and just there because Sonic Team felt like being different without really thinking about it.

Ita why we get shit like Sonic and Elise existing in the same plane and nobody points out how odd it is, and its just something the audience is meant to accept at face value.

That's why people have a problem there's no sense of cohesion with these constant art shifts.

Okay, but what do the decisions of those other games have to do with this one? They are, for once, making an art shift with a reason. It doesn't really matter what other games do with their art style, only that they have a different art style to begin with.

The cohesion is the narrative itself. That is how Kingdom Hearts explains itself: through its narrative. And even with that narrative, the contrast can be jarring. For Frontiers, it's confusing now, because we don't know what the narrative is. That will be made apparent when we play the game. 

Again, people would not be saying "this doesn't look like Sonic", if they thought that Sonic did not have a coherent or consistent or even a basic art style that they believe Frontiers is contrary to.

[DaBigJ]

This is unrelated to the on going argument...

But the more I about the fact that we have this very thread way before release, the more annoyed I get because it just proves that SEGA knows nothing about how to market Sonic to people.

I feel like more people probably wouldn't be "in a bubble" if SEGA properly showed off this game that's releasing this year instead of being secretive and sneaky about the game. They have had an entire month to show off the game in a good light, and they've squandered it by their strategy here.

It took leaks to get people excited for the game because the footage SEGA provided to IGN (and other companies) look lame as hell, and the fact that they're going as far as to use bushes to prevent anyone from showing the game off is fucking embarrassing for a company who is so terrible at marketing their own mascot's upcoming releases.

Just...how and why, SEGA? What are you doing?

[NoKaine]

9 minutes ago, Jake_LeOFFICIAL said:

They have had an entire month to show off the game in a good light, and they've squandered it by their strategy here.

The month isn't over yet, though. It's still June. Doesn't feel like it, right?

9 minutes ago, Jake_LeOFFICIAL said:

It took leaks to get people excited for the game

No, the new gameplay footage and impressions made people excited for the game. The IGN footage had a mixed-negative reception. Then the new footage and impressions for the game people more excited. You can tell by the amount of YouTubers who literally go "I was wrong about Frontiers." 

This is kind of what I mean by how this place is a bubble. People liked it more when the press were actually able to show more of the game. YouTube, Twitter, other forums. Not leaks. Actually, since this argument started around a leak of footage of what looks like an old level, the leaks hurt more than help so far. And that's mostly because they're out of full context.

The demo leaks are blurry off-cam footage where you can't shit from scrap. The only thing we really know from that is a HUD and what the cyberspace levels look like.  

If SEGA showed the new footage first, the perception would be SIGNIFICANTLY better. 

The marketing is shit, though. Cannot disagree.

[Kuzu]

19 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Okay, but what do the decisions of those other games have to do with this one? They are, for once, making an art shift with a reason. It doesn't really matter what other games do with their art style, only that they have a different art style to begin with.

The cohesion is the narrative itself. That is how Kingdom Hearts explains itself: through its narrative. And even with that narrative, the contrast can be jarring. For Frontiers, it's confusing now, because we don't know what the narrative is. That will be made apparent when we play the game. 

Again, people would not be saying "this doesn't look like Sonic", if they thought that Sonic did not have a coherent or consistent or even a basic art style that they believe Frontiers is contrary to.

The reason people are turned off is because of those prior art shifts. If I'm someone who has never jived with the constant shifts in aesthetics this series has went through, why would another shift interest me???

The "it doesn't look like Sonic" complaints are more examples of the fact that this series rarely has a consistent art style besides shit like Green Hill, because it serves as the establishment of what many people think Sonic looks like.

[StaticMania]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

...because it serves as the establishment of what many people think Sonic looks like.

Including Sega apparently.

Any grassy landscape either looks like Green Hill or...doesn't.

That's kind of lame.

[NoKaine]

14 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

If I'm someone who has never jived with the constant shifts in aesthetics this series has went through, why would another shift interest me???

Because this one is saying "it is weird that Sonic is in this different looking location." And again, this mindset is why the cyberspace levels are old levels. Just in case this is a concern, they establish that there is a contrast between the two worlds, so even if you don't know Sonic at all, you now know what world he belongs to and what it is "supposed" to look like. It, ironically, "grounds" the game.

It isn't just relying on the meta knowledge of the art style differences, but the narrative itself puts attention towards it.

Sonic will even go "wait, I remember this place!"

14 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The "it doesn't look like Sonic" complaints are more examples of the fact that this series rarely has a consistent art style besides shit like Green Hill, because it serves as the establishment of what many people think Sonic looks like.

So it doesn't have a consistent art style... except for this one specific art style that people point towards when Sonic looks any different from it? That's... consistency. 

Like it or not (I personally don't), people do have an idea of what Sonic looks or "should" look like. 

11 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Including Sega apparently.

Any grassy landscape either looks like Green Hill or...doesn't.

That's kind of lame.

It is kind of lame, my guy. 

[Dummy Bear]

I'm starting to find it a little annoying that you can plop Mario in realistic forests with realistic dinosaurs, realistic cities with realistic people, realistic ruins with a realistic looking scary dragon and nobody will bat an eye too much(except for the realistic human part. I remember the memes). Hell, some use the game to "prove" Nintendo can do realistic graphics.

But put Sonic in some plains and suddenly it's "not Sonic".

 

[NoKaine]

People did and still do talk about how weird New Donk City is, even though Odyssey is achieving (achieved) what Frontiers is doing, putting Mario into new locations with exotic art styles. Odyssey really doesn't frame it as "not of this world", though. New Donk City is even the same city that Donkey Kong takes place in. Ironically, I find that tidbit far more jarring than the concept of a realistic city in Mario because they almost never mentioned Donkey Kong the game beforehand.

I am a little surprised that no one talks much about the Ruined Kingdom, but then again, it is a very small part of the game.

But, yeah, people did complain about New Donk City looking a little too realistic (ironically, some compared it to Sonic Adventure!).