Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[StaticMania]

They're already likable...

They aren't very appealing.

[StellarBlur]

This thread really needs a trailer soon lol.

[Kuzu]

6 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

I think that attitude can be risky if you take it too far.  The extra characters with contested playstyles definitely warranted criticism, but back then the context was that they were taking away from what Sonic HAD been.  Among the actual fanbase, that is what mattered and not what critics thought.  It felt like they would have to make a call as to what segment of the fandom they would make happy, but then they threw in a bunch of curveballs, reinventing Sonic’s mechanics, so nobody truly won.

The thing about saying “So long as the game is good, it doesn’t matter WHAT MAKES IT good” is that it inherently devalues pre-existing fans in favor of everyone else. While Sonic Colors may be a good game, I’m still not quite ready to call it a good Sonic game, because mechanically it’s so shackled to the Wisps and blocky 2D segments, that it’s virtually impossible to play much of it the way you’d play every well-regraded Sonic game made before and after.  But if what matters most is that professional critics like it, then unless the critic reviewing it is a big Sonic fan, the game can get a free pass for doing something completely different from what fans want. If Sonic Colors is so great even despite its dissimilarity to past Sonic games and because of it’s similarity to Mario games, then why not make Sonic into Mario, full-stop? Profits and maximized player bases are arguably part of the same issue.  Why even worry what any older Sonic fans want if the most lucrative use of the license is as an auto-runner with Gacha mechanics?

I hope you understand why that’s a problem.

This is literally what Sonic Adventure 2 did in regards to the Classic games and Sonic Adventure 2 is hailed as the best game in the series by most current generation of fans. 

Sonic Adventure 2 has almost nothing in common with Sonic 1-3K. Even the characters have been reinterpreted to fit the story it wanted to tell. 

And guess what, people loved it. Sure, you had some fans of Classic Sonic who didn't like how it evolved.  The only difference now is that Sonic is evolving in a way that YOU don't likely, so now the shoe is on the other foot.

11 minutes ago, Wraith said:

"Sonic discourse" now is literally dozens upon dozens of video essays making excuses and covering for every mistake those games made. It's been long enough that young fans would have grown up with that being the only coverage of those games available. I like the Adventure games alright, but there are legitimately people that worked very hard to foster the notion that those games are excellent and it was just a fringe group of biased critics putting them down and it drives me insane.
 

You have no idea how much I appreciate this video for actually pointing all of the problems these games were facing and why exactly they weren't perfect. No rose tinted glasses, just putting the truth out. It's the most honest analysis of the 1999-2005 era I've seen.

 

[Dr. Detective]

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

"Sonic discourse" now is literally dozens upon dozens of video essays making excuses and covering for every mistake those games made. It's been long enough that young fans would have grown up with that being the only coverage of those games available.

I don't watch any of those essays, even as someone who grew up with and love the majority of those games from that era.

Some of them might be good but I fear experiencing cringe too much. Honestly, I steer clear of all Sonic videos really as I've also had enough of some internet funny man I don't know shitting on stuff I like. I wish Youtube would stop reccomending them to me.

We heard you like Sonic so here's a thumbnail of some guy looking at the box art of a game you like as though it just killed his mom. Please engage.

I know the algorythm only knows that I search "Sonic" stuff a lot so it sends that shit my way regardless of context but I really wish it would stop.

I'm already secure in my opinion on the other characters. I like pretty much all of them and I would like to see them all better utilized for the benefit of a good story and possibly for the good of the gameplay if we can reasonably allow it.

I don't think that's too controversial an opinion, I guess. It remaims sad that after all this time we can't even get them to try it with the 3D games in any meaingful capacity. I wish I could be SO optimistic that slapping a Shadow skin on Sonic for not even all of Sonic's levels in Forces felt like it counted.

It still amazes me that seeing a Tails life icon in the lead up to Colors Ultimate didn't mean what it naturally would mean for literally any other series. Regardless of how good or bad a playable Tails in that game would have been or how important having him may or may not have been there's something about witnessing a fiasco like that that really puts into perspective how bad things are for the others.

I wish to will myself to stop hoping for change as it's been too absurdly long but I can't help fantasizing regardless. The heart wants what the heart wants.

[Zoomzeta]

2 hours ago, StellarBlur said:

This thread really needs a trailer soon lol.

You have no idea, we are doing Sonic spins until we get to Summer Game Fest. 

2 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I don't watch any of those essays, even as someone who grew up with and love the majority of those games from that era.

Some of them might be good but I fear experiencing cringe too much. Honestly, I steer clear of all Sonic videos really as I've also had enough of some internet funny man I don't know shitting on stuff I like. I wish Youtube would stop reccomending them to me.

We heard you like Sonic so here's a thumbnail of some guy looking at the box art of a game you like as though it just killed his mom. Please engage.

I know the algorythm only knows that I search "Sonic" stuff a lot so it sends that shit my way regardless of context but I really wish it would stop.

I'm already secure in my opinion on the other characters. I like pretty much all of them and I would like to see them all better utilized for the benefit of a good story and possibly for the good of the gameplay if we can reasonably allow it.

I don't think that's too controversial an opinion, I guess. It remaims sad that after all this time we can't even get them to try it with the 3D games in any meaingful capacity. I wish I could be SO optimistic that slapping a Shadow skin on Sonic for not even all of Sonic's levels in Forces felt like it counted.

It still amazes me that seeing a Tails life icon in the lead up to Colors Ultimate didn't mean what it naturally would mean for literally any other series. Regardless of how good or bad a playable Tails in that game would have been or how important having him may or may not have been there's something about witnessing a fiasco like that that really puts into perspective how bad things are for the others.

I wish to will myself to stop hoping for change as it's been too absurdly long but I can't help fantasizing regardless. The heart wants what the heart wants.

Can't fault you for that. 

[Jango]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

This is literally what Sonic Adventure 2 did in regards to the Classic games and Sonic Adventure 2 is hailed as the best game in the series by most current generation of fans. 

Sonic Adventure 2 has almost nothing in common with Sonic 1-3K. Even the characters have been reinterpreted to fit the story it wanted to tell. 

And guess what, people loved it. Sure, you had some fans of Classic Sonic who didn't like how it evolved.  The only difference now is that Sonic is evolving in a way that YOU don't likely, so now the shoe is on the other foot.

You have no idea how much I appreciate this video for actually pointing all of the problems these games were facing and why exactly they weren't perfect. No rose tinted glasses, just putting the truth out. It's the most honest analysis of the 1999-2005 era I've seen.

 

Golden Bolt is really good. And he's not as biased as J (from J's Reviews) or the Geek Critique guy (althought I like their analysis aswell).

[BubbleButt TV]

3 hours ago, StellarBlur said:

This thread really needs a trailer soon lol.

the true SpinCycle is this thread going round in circles for the past 5 pages 

[DaBigJ]

3 hours ago, StellarBlur said:

This thread really needs a trailer soon lol.

I'd agree with this if it wasn't for the fact that most of the time when people say this, they also come around and contribute to the "boredom debates" that happens during the wait.

I might be guilty of this too, to be honest.

[ComeAsYouAre]

4 hours ago, Wraith said:

I'd argue that in many ways it's more conservative. They caved and gave you guys Shadow eventually but we're still waiting on playable Zelda.

Link not talking and being the only playable character is probably the main things Nintendo won't mess on when it comes to the franchise, but they play with some of the gameplay, settings, tone, Gimmicks every few games compared to Sonic.  They even got rid of Link's iconic look in BOTW and included voice acting when everyone assumed that they will never do(some speculate That Miyamoto becoming less influential is the reason but that's another topic)

Regardless the two franchises are different enough that we can't really compare them. 

 

My point was that no Franchise would survive if they were as conservative as journalists demanded Sonic to be

[Dr. Detective]

Sonic "discourse" is something I stopped engaging with outside of this forum for years now. It's rare that I ever leave a comment on Youtube and I just straight up don't bother with Twitter. 

It's either extremely sad because people on one side shit on the games and characters I love or it's extremely frustrating and full of anger because people on the other side aren't being satisfied with the direction they're taking with the current games and the lack of those same characters. Something had to be done about the way they were handling the cast back then but the road they took clearly hasn't helped all that much, otherwise the Frontiers discourse would be a lot more positive and optimistic on here.

Why would it be though? The new direction they took doesn't seem to be satisfying anyone enough for that to be the case.

That doesn't mean they should have continued doing what they were doing in the 2000s but I can't help but feel nixing almost everything and starting over instead of trying to build upon it and improve upon what they grandfathered into the series only just served to divide everyone in the long run. 

Not helping is how fucking weird SEGA is. At the height of Generations' success they changed the formula again and if Lost World's formula held any promise it was rendered moot when they panicked at the less than lukewarm reception. Then there's the REALLY weird shit they do that literally no one asked for like the entire Boom multimedia thing.

Like a weird hillbilly that won the lottery they just exploded with merch, toys, video games, comics, and a TV show for this new branch of Sonic all at once without bothering to see if anyone was interested in more. They didn't even bother to properly handle the project well. Now in 2022 it's just a strange foot note in Sonic's history that cost them a lot of money and is probably a contributing factor to the content drought that happened afterward.

Trying to make sense of any of this feels like a fool's errand. 

I say there's a lot riding on Frontiers' success but to be honest I'm not even sure WHAT'S riding on it now. "Something important" probably but maybe not? I don't know.

I suppose all anyone discussing all this can really do to ensure they stay as clear headed as possible is to focus mostly on what makes them happy. The people from my generation going on to make those video essays can do what they want. It's not like it actually matters. SEGA's not going to listen to them. I've been given no reason to think they will. They do whatever they want and have for years and years now.

Money and general critical reception seems to be the only sure fire thing they'll pay attention to... but even then HOW they decide to respond to it has always been wrought with failure. Colors was a success so we'll put the wisps in fucking everything and claim that Colors is where "3D Sonic finally found it's footing" as if 2010 being the time where that happened isn't an extremely embarrassing thing to say about your brand. And obviously, in my opinion, that couldn't be further from the truth anyway so they hurt themselves in their confusion when they didn't have to. 

So until something substantial comes, I'll admit that everything I'm seeing and hearing about Frontiers sounds neat... but I'll remain neutral as far as my excitement goes. I don't have a single bone in my body that's able to give them the benefit of the doubt anymore.

[expansivelovestories]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Not helping is how fucking weird SEGA is. At the height of Generations' success they changed the formula again and if Lost World's formula held any promise it was rendered moot when they panicked at the less than lukewarm reception. Then there's the REALLY weird shit they do that literally no one asked for like the entire Boom multimedia thing.

Like a weird hillbilly that won the lottery they just exploded with merch, toys, video games, comics, and a TV show for this new branch of Sonic all at once without bothering to see if anyone was interested in more. They didn't even bother to properly handle the project well. Now in 2022 it's just a strange foot note in Sonic's history that cost them a lot of money and is probably a contributing factor to the content drought that happened afterward.

Trying to make sense of any of this feels like a fool's errand.

I understand the premise of this and do basically agree, but i do want to say, almost every partially or largely mainstream presence does this!! 

Something like 90% of all music acts, and even that feels like a low number; most video game and film studios, and i am guessing plenty of mainstream authors of books too, they all have this same problem!!  As you say, it is because one way or another, the concept of checking in with fans isn't attempted iether properly, or at all.

A tide is changing with Sonic though!!  Sonic Mania and certain aspects of the IDW series, as well as the attempts to ensure the writing of Frontiers will meet most fans' approval, are good signs!!

[Celestia]

3 hours ago, azoo said:

Also I know I'm late but I'm not sure how anyone could've missed the train that some people don't like the Adventure games because of the alternate playstyles. Is that why the "Sonic's friends" discourse is so twisted online? Did people just somehow forget? I guess if you're young enough to have missed it at it's peak and deep enough in the fandom, you can kinda glaze past the not-so-shiny parts of the apple, but man..

I think it's actually because even the people who complained about the cast forgot after a point. I don't think it was a popular sentiment by any means but there were people still doing the whole "Sonic's shitty friend" spiel about games like Generations where the characters kind of just exist. Not because of them being a massive detriment to the game in any real way, but because (and they'd usually say this outright) it was a reminder of the "dark age".

So by then I saw it as something that had a point once upon a time but was hard to take seriously later on. Which, fair or not, dilutes the original complaints too.

[Zoomzeta]

31 minutes ago, Jake_LeOFFICIAL said:

I'd agree with this if it wasn't for the fact that most of the time when people say this, they also come around and contribute to the "boredom debates" that happens during the wait.

I might be guilty of this too, to be honest.

Same here. We are all kind of bored right now.

[Kuzu]

22 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

That doesn't mean they should have continued doing what they were doing in the 2000s but I can't help but feel nixing almost everything and starting over instead of trying to build upon it and improve upon what they grandfathered into the series only just served to divide everyone in the long run. 

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Not in regards to Sonic Colors onwards, no this shit started back in Sonic Adventure 2 and to an extent, Sonic Heroes. At that point, Sonic had completely changed from what it was in the 90's in terms of mechanics, aesthetics, tone, all of that. And despite me loving Sonic Adventure 2 to death, it's hard for me to not understand what fans of Classic Sonic probably felt at the time, especially after speaking with some.  It was like the Sonic that they knew and grew up with was gone and never coming back, and Modern Sonic had replaced him with all of its Anime storylines and characters. Series went from having 3-4 main characters to having like 15 in the 10-13 gap from Sonic 1 to Sonic Adventure and Sonic Heroes. 

While Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes were popular and are still well loved games in the fandom to this day, I can't help but think if that was entirely the right decision either. Just because something was popular doesn't necessarily mean its right. I suppose you can say this was happening in the 90's too when we had all of these different Sonic continuities running around and Sega effectively "Screw it" to all of them and declared the original Japanese canon was the "real" canon. 

Yes, Sonic fans complaining about their preferred versions of Sonic are annoying....but Sega kind of did it to themselves by oversaturating the market with so many different versions of Sonic. Sure, it gave him widespread appeal, but it inevitably made things far more divided than they would be had they stuck with just one consistent vision. 

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Not in regards to Sonic Colors onwards, no this shit started back in Sonic Adventure 2 and to an extent, Sonic Heroes. At that point, Sonic had completely changed from what it was in the 90's in terms of mechanics, aesthetics, tone, all of that. And despite me loving Sonic Adventure 2 to death, it's hard for me to not understand what fans of Classic Sonic probably felt at the time, especially after speaking with some.  It was like the Sonic that they knew and grew up with was gone and never coming back, and Modern Sonic had replaced him with all of its Anime storylines and characters. Series went from having 3-4 main characters to having like 15 in the 10-13 gap from Sonic 1 to Sonic Adventure and Sonic Heroes. 

While Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes were popular and are still well loved games in the fandom to this day, I can't help but think if that was entirely the right decision either. Just because something was popular doesn't necessarily mean its right. I suppose you can say this was happening in the 90's too when we had all of these different Sonic continuities running around and Sega effectively "Screw it" to all of them and declared the original Japanese canon was the "real" canon. 

Yes, Sonic fans complaining about their preferred versions of Sonic are annoying....but Sega kind of did it to themselves by oversaturating the market with so many different versions of Sonic. Sure, it gave him widespread appeal, but it inevitably made things far more divided than they would be had they stuck with just one consistent vision. 

I can't help but feel that could have been mitigated somewhat if they had just done what they were doing now and had a brand for Classic and Adventure. Kind of like how Mario and Mega Man did somewhat. It's not like they can't do that. Having more than one vision of Sonic didn't and still doesn't have to be the death knell. They just didn't do it properly. 

I can't speak for the Classic fans and how they were feeling since I AM one of those guys who got into the series through Sonic Adventure 2: Battle and Sonic Heroes but if it's anything like what I've been feeling with Colors onward than I sympathize. Shit don't feel good. I'm sure Mania made them feel happy and Origins is, at the very least, serving as a reminder that the Classic brand is still a thing but they could be handling things so much better for them still. 

It feels slightly petty to say that they're being catered to more than the Adventure era fans but I can't help but ignore the massive flat-line my era has in comparison too. However, that's just another by-product of how much they've sectioned this fanbase to bits. It doesn't matter how many people cry about it. Their bottom line is probably telling them that it doesn't matter because Sonic is still selling regardless. 

All discussions about this generally seem to circle back to "SEGA sucked at their job and they handled this poorly". But hey, there's a good reason for that. 

It's true.

[ComeAsYouAre]

37 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

suppose you can say this was happening in the 90's too when we had all of these different Sonic continuities running around and Sega effectively "Screw it" to all of them and declared the original Japanese canon was the "real" canon

Except that the  OG Japanese Canon and the Adventure Canon were different. The adventure canon is relatively Americanised due to it being produced in America even if the Japanese had the final call

[Kuzu]

26 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I can't help but feel that could have been mitigated somewhat if they had just done what they were doing now and had a brand for Classic and Adventure. Kind of like how Mario and Mega Man did somewhat. It's not like they can't do that. Having more than one vision of Sonic didn't and still doesn't have to be the death knell. They just didn't do it properly. 

I can't speak for the Classic fans and how they were feeling since I AM one of those guys who got into the series through Sonic Adventure 2: Battle and Sonic Heroes but if it's anything like what I've been feeling with Colors onward than I sympathize. Shit don't feel good. I'm sure Mania made them feel happy and Origins is, at the very least, serving as a reminder that the Classic brand is still a thing but they could be handling things so much better for them still. 

It feels slightly petty to say that they're being catered to more than the Adventure era fans but I can't help but ignore the massive flat-line my era has in comparison too. However, that's just another by-product of how much they've sectioned this fanbase to bits. It doesn't matter how many people cry about it. Their bottom line is probably telling them that it doesn't matter because Sonic is still selling regardless. 

All discussions about this generally seem to circle back to "SEGA sucked at their job and they handled this poorly". But hey, there's a good reason for that. 

It's true.

One of the biggest reasons I think they didn't do that was because many of the old guard from the Classic days were gone or on their way out, so I guess they just felt it was easier to march forward with their own thing. 

The funny thing about it is that Nintendo, for a while, we're doing exactly that; you had main Mario games, Paper Mario if you wanted more focus on characterization, and Mario & Luigi if you wanted more world-building. Then the latter two kind of died out, and in the case of  Paper Mario, actively started to dry up in terms of creativity. If you look at a lot of the complaints about Paper Mario, they mirror a lot of the complaints about Sonic. 

It mostly just comes down to creative differences and the constant changing of staff. Its natural for fans to want products to mostly stay in a similar tone and style of the stuff they have an emotional attachment to, and grow resentful when they don't. But it's also kind of foolish to expect a product to never change from what it started as. Ratchet And Clank fans bemoan how the series isn't about corporate propaganda anymore, but that was when the series was in its infancy being ran by a bunch of young adults fresh out of College, Insomniac have doubled in size and they're much older and wiser now and their style is going to change to reflect that...for better or worse. 

 

Sooo, *shrug* there's no real answer here. Fans are either gonna jive with this new direction or they aren't and we just gotta accept that. In an ideal world, everyone would get what they want and everyone would be happy, but that's not how it works. 

21 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

Except that the  OG Japanese Canon and the Adventure Canon were different. The adventure canon is relatively Americanised due to it being produced in America even if the Japanese had the final call

Sonic Adventuire was literally conceptualized and developed in Japan, along with Yuji Naka and Naoto Oshishima. What the hell are you talking about? Nothing about Adventure came from America. 

[ComeAsYouAre]

24 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Sonic Adventuire was literally conceptualized and developed in Japan, along with Yuji Naka and Naoto Oshishima. What the hell are you talking about? Nothing about Adventure came from America. 

Oh yeah, that's right 

 

I just assumed it was made in America because of Iizuka saying that Sonic's redesign is inspired by Graffiti and Looney tunes so I thought he saw some graffiti in america while working on it 

 

Regardless, The Adventure canon is still different , they even avoided Calling Tails Miles 

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Sooo, *shrug* there's no real answer here. Fans are either gonna jive with this new direction or they aren't and we just gotta accept that. In an ideal world, everyone would get what they want and everyone would be happy, but that's not how it works. 

There's no "real" answer, sure, but I definitely believe the series can come up with a much better answer than this. 

Cause it's true. If SA2: B and Heroes didn't happen I wouldn't be a Sonic fan. I wouldn't have met all of you. I wouldn't have taught myself how to draw. I probably wouldn't be as obsessed with narrative and creative looking worlds and environments either. The trajectory of my life had those games no enchanted me is impossible to fathom. Yet, at the same time, those games that gave my fandom life probably alienated a lot of people from the same fanbase. 

I do think there is a way that the Modern and Adventure era fans can get along better than they have been as far as what concepts the games utilize and the direction they go in. I haven't seen an example of them properly attempting it so that's going to remain speculative, of course. Either way, I don't believe that what they've been doing is the best example of what they could have done and neither does anyone else, it looks like. Otherwise, the Frontiers hype train would be full steam ahead. 

Thank God for all the other stuff that Sonic is doing right now. Comics, movies, shows, and Jakks Pacific figures on a near constant stream of consciousness does the heart good enough. 

[Wraith]

You can't please everybody, but if you made a Sonic game with decent movement/physics that still had the anime ass storyline/spectacle from the dreamcast era you'd please enough people that it'd be fine, probably.

 

 

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

You can't please everybody, but if you made a Sonic game with decent movement/physics that still had the anime ass storyline/spectacle from the dreamcast era you'd please enough people that it'd be fine, probably.

My personal motto has always been that you can't please everybody but you should still try to please as many people as reasonably possible.

There's going to be a varying difference of opinion as to what counts as "reasonable" or even what counts as "possible" but I don't think it's a bad thing to try. 

[Scritch the Cat]

10 hours ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

The Entire Sonic Franchise is arguably "Mario with a Speed and Spikes gimmick"

I for one would not argue that.  At the core and on average, Sonic's similarities to Mario don't go all that far beyond being a platformer, but let's move on...

[Kuzu]

To satisfy the fans of the secondary characters is a bit harder; it'd be easy to just make a bunch of games centering on the bare minimum of Sonic characters with Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, and Shadow throw them in an Anime ass story and call it a day. But that's gonna necessarily be a solution. 

I think how Generations handled them was a good compromise that I don't see many people criticize. They kind of serve as power ups of sorts; Knuckles can dig for this thing here, Blaze can hop around here, etc etc. 

Most fans just want to feel like these characters important to the series, so combine with that with those Anime ass storylines and a game that has actual good mechanics and we'll be on to something. 

 

Think the last time the fandom was mostly satisfied with a game was Sonic Generations. 

[Scritch the Cat]

10 hours ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

The difference between "Gimmick" and "Mechanic" more or less depends on if you like it or not. 

It's why the Elemental Shields aren't called gimmicks, because people like them

Well, it's pretty obvious that people like the Wisps, on average, but a lot of hairs can be split on why they're a lot more contentious to older fans than the Elemental Shields are. 

Elemental shields maybe make Sonic more like Mario but not really at the expense of being Sonic, because the new abilities they give don't detract from the pace of the game, and all of them are made to fit into tropes Sonic levels had already been using.  One of them makes it easier to get rings, another easier to survive underwater, and a third easier to endure fire and lava, and when Sonic gets them he also gets new jump moves.  The Wisps, at least in Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations--I haven't played SLW or SF--generally turn Sonic into a completely different character with completely different abilities, and instead of their abilities being designed around Sonic level design, Sonic level design got overhauled to make use of the Wisps.  What would otherwise flow nicely and lend itself well to the speed-running the series is known for gets halted so you can participate in all of these vignettes to show off the games' new gimmicks.  To their credit, the Wisps do add variety and for that reason I might enjoy Sonic Colors more than Sonic 1 and 2, but more than 3, Knuckles and Mania, no.  They're just better-designed games because they know how to build on the series' core without completely overwriting it out of the blue, then jumping back to being more Sonic-like, with no warning when that pendulum's going to swing back and forth.

So while yes; you can argue that new additions to the Sonic series can only be judged as good or bad after the fact, do the cases where some are successful really do enough to justify taking risks when so many others haven't been?  I'm not going to answer that question but it is worth considering.

[Wraith]

9 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

 

I think how Generations handled them was a good compromise that I don't see many people criticize.

huh?