Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[Zaysho]

1 minute ago, Indigo Rush said:

The one with the sword or the one where he turns into a werewolf?

Oh my god they keep doing this don't they

[StellarBlur]

1 hour ago, CrystalMaelStorm said:

Not to be pessimistic here, but is showing Sonic Frontiers at a big event like the Games Fest in June a really good idea? Not that other games shown there may not turn out bad as well, for they can, but with the new combat system we don't even know about yet, and chances that it could be bad, I am not sure if showing this to many people who will be watching at such a big event is a good idea. I don't know if you know what I mean here, but with Sonic's past performance, showing the latest game at such a big event (it is a big event, right?) in June, the Summer Games Fest, may not be the best of ideas.

Note that I am just concerned here. That is all.

If this game is good, we want it to sell well so we keep getting high budget sonic games. Summer Games Fest gives it a ton of exposure and is their best shot at high sales. If the game sucks, they brought it on themselves. With that said, I think it'll be different but I also think it'll review well. Didn't that one credible game journalist say he'd heard that the game was showing very well internally ? The ceo in an investor Q&A also mentioned that they delayed the game to ensure quality and he believe it would result in a good product. Now, you guys might think that's not worth much but intentionally lying to investors is illegal and opens SEGA to lawsuits. At the very least, they believe it'll be a good game. We'll see though.

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, StellarBlur said:

If this game is good, we want it to sell well so we keep getting high budget sonic games. Summer Games Fest gives it a ton of exposure and is their best shot at high sales. If the game sucks, they brought it on themselves. With that said, I think it'll be different but I also think it'll review well. Didn't that one credible game journalist say he'd heard that the game was showing very well internally ? The ceo in an investor Q&A also mentioned that they delayed the game to ensure quality and he believe it would result in a good product. Now, you guys might think that's not worth much but intentionally lying to investors is illegal and opens SEGA to lawsuits. At the very least, they believe it'll be a good game. We'll see though.

Very good point there, Stellar. Interesting facts about the credible game journalist and the CEO too. I guess I WAS underestimating this game and way too concerned there, for a second.

But still, anything can happen, good or bad. We'll probably just have to wait and see.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Chances are high people will think more highly of this game because its tone won't be as gag-oriented the series overall has been for over a decade.  Even Sonic Forces, which presented itself as serious, couldn't really break the mold of Sonic wisecracking at ineffectual villains.  The main reason I'm not concluding this game is another false alarm like that is that Ian Flynn is writing.  Yes, SEGA still has mandates that restrict what can be done but Iizuka has also said this is the start of a new era for Sonic, which presumably means they're pushing for a new vibe in many regards. 

For better or worse.

Iizuka says a lot of things that don't necessarily translate to reality.

But sure, Frontiers may not have Pontaff writing it and a lot of fans will likely praise it on that alone regardless of the actual writing quality, in fact, I'm almost positive that's how people are gonna see it cuz Sonic fans are primarily concerned with aesthetics over anything else.

But my issues with Sonic run much deeper than the story and dialogue and I have every reason to believe addressing said issues are pretty low on Sega's priority list.

[Shiny Gems]

7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Iizuka says a lot of things that don't necessarily translate to reality.

But sure, Frontiers may not have Pontaff writing it and a lot of fans will likely praise it on that alone regardless of the actual writing quality, in fact, I'm almost positive that's how people are gonna see it cuz Sonic fans are primarily concerned with aesthetics over anything else.

But my issues with Sonic run much deeper than the story and dialogue and I have every reason to believe addressing said issues are pretty low on Sega's priority list.

Honestly, I don't see why not on the last part. I mean, despite me saying I was too concerned, I kinda still am, and Sonic Team has not shown much on the important parts like gameplay, not that it means the gameplay will be bad in the end but there is always the rule that there is always a chance.

Now tell me: What else am I missing that I did not get in this post about what is low on Sega's priority list, if you don't mind explaining that is. Still, please do.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, MightyGems said:

Honestly, I don't see why not on the last part. I mean, despite me saying I was too concerned, I kinda still am, and Sonic Team has not shown much on the important parts like gameplay, not that it means the gameplay will be bad in the end but there is always the rule that there is always a chance.

Now tell me: What else am I missing that I did not get in this post about what is low on Sega's priority list, if you don't mind explaining that is. Still, please do.

My main issues is that in the 20 or so years since Sonic Adventure, Sega have yet to figure out how to get Sonic to move in a satisfactory manner in a 3D plane. Instead, they've doubled down on spectacle and set pieces and have increasingly restricted Sonic's movement, to the point where he feels very artificial and unnatural to maneuver if he's not Boosting at full speed. Forces is the culmination of that philosophy as the game is intentionally designed to give the player as little input as possible on how the game is played. This is what the Director of the game admitted in interviews, and that same director is headlining Frontiers as well.  I have no reason to assume his mindset has changed given he's directed three games with that philosophy in mind. Iizuka can say all he wants, but as I said, his words have held little weight when judging the final product. 

And this isn't even saying that I think the game will be bad or anything; Morio Kishimoto's games are, at worst, just extremely bland and uninteresting. If the game is at least of the same quality of the original Sonic Colors, then it will be fine. People will like it, but only really on a superficial level and then forget about it in a few weeks when better games come along, and then Sonic fans will argue among themselves on if the game was good or not as opinions about the game start to settle once the initial hype wears off. 

[Zoomzeta]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

My main issues is that in the 20 or so years since Sonic Adventure, Sega have yet to figure out how to get Sonic to move in a satisfactory manner in a 3D plane. Instead, they've doubled down on spectacle and set pieces and have increasingly restricted Sonic's movement, to the point where he feels very artificial and unnatural to maneuver if he's not Boosting at full speed. Forces is the culmination of that philosophy as the game is intentionally designed to give the player as little input as possible on how the game is played. This is what the Director of the game admitted in interviews, and that same director is headlining Frontiers as well.  I have no reason to assume his mindset has changed given he's directed three games with that philosophy in mind. Iizuka can say all he wants, but as I said, his words have held little weight when judging the final product. 

And this isn't even saying that I think the game will be bad or anything; Morio Kishimoto's games are, at worst, just extremely bland and uninteresting. If the game is at least of the same quality of the original Sonic Colors, then it will be fine. People will like it, but only really on a superficial level and then forget about it in a few weeks when better games come along, and then Sonic fans will argue among themselves on if the game was good or not as opinions about the game start to settle once the initial hype wears off. 

.....OK. 

[BubbleButt TV]

9 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

The one with the sword or the one where he turns into a werewolf?

the one where he is just straight up in Hyrule

[Willsy]

It's probably worth remembering that Jeff Gerstmann from Giant Bomb said the game was testing really well behind the scenes and was sounding impressive. If that is indeed the case it's likely Sega are confident in wheeling it out for big events, which they kind of need to do given the game's larger budget compared to something like Forces. And to add to that point, Forces was never rolled out to anything close to the scale of The Game Awards. Sega themselves have even said Frontiers is part of a large push to give the brand more exposure, and them blowing a trumpet about their big new open world Sonic game will absolutely do that. 

[BubbleButt TV]

15 minutes ago, Willsy said:

It's probably worth remembering that Jeff Gerstmann from Giant Bomb said the game was testing really well behind the scenes and was sounding impressive. If that is indeed the case it's likely Sega are confident in wheeling it out for big events, which they kind of need to do given the game's larger budget compared to something like Forces. And to add to that point, Forces was never rolled out to anything close to the scale of The Game Awards. Sega themselves have even said Frontiers is part of a large push to give the brand more exposure, and them blowing a trumpet about their big new open world Sonic game will absolutely do that. 

yeah Sonic Forces' big gameplay reveal was so lame lol

that quote from Jeff Gerstmann has me really interested. it's nice to know the game recieved good impressions behind the scenes.

[DaBigJ]

https://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/sega-says-its-targeting-high-review-scores-for-sonic-frontiers/

If they have this much hope for Frontiers, that it'll do super well, then I better fucking see them push the absolute hell out of this game after June. I better fucking see them try to advertise this as much as they can. I'm talking Sonic Movie 2 levels of promoting. And they abso-fucking-lutely better be putting their A-game on the development side as well. 

If they do their usual marketing shit for this game while having these expectations, i'm gonna be SO fucking mad. If this game ends up being another hollow husk of a game, then i'm gonna be flat out enraged.

You want higher review scores? Put the effort into your game. You want higher sales? FUCKING ADVERTISE IT.

[BubbleButt TV]

I can already see this article aging so badly if Frontiers ends up being a complete dud

hopefully Sonic Team are only looking at Breath of the Wild as a point of inspiration instead of just mindlessly copying the smart kid's homework thinking they'll also get a grade A

[Scritch the Cat]

14 hours ago, Kuzu said:

My main issues is that in the 20 or so years since Sonic Adventure, Sega have yet to figure out how to get Sonic to move in a satisfactory manner in a 3D plane. Instead, they've doubled down on spectacle and set pieces and have increasingly restricted Sonic's movement, to the point where he feels very artificial and unnatural to maneuver if he's not Boosting at full speed. Forces is the culmination of that philosophy as the game is intentionally designed to give the player as little input as possible on how the game is played. This is what the Director of the game admitted in interviews, and that same director is headlining Frontiers as well.  I have no reason to assume his mindset has changed given he's directed three games with that philosophy in mind. Iizuka can say all he wants, but as I said, his words have held little weight when judging the final product. 

To be fair, a fully 3D Sonic game simply can’t be as railroaded as Sonic Forces was.  Programming Sonic’s steering to trigger automatically in the game whenever the road curves, is tied to a sort of design where every level is essentially just a few roads.  This game isn’t like that.  I have no reason to believe Sonic’s movement here will be very exciting, or glitch-free, but I do at least expect full autonomy.

[Rabid-Coot]

Well I don't think anyone puts out statements like targeting a solid 7/10.

[ComeAsYouAre]

Forces might actually been a good thing if it forced Team Sonic to abandon The Linearity that plagued the franchise

[TB100]

On 5/20/2022 at 1:18 PM, ComeAsYouAre said:

Forces might actually been a good thing if it forced Team Sonic to abandon The Linearity that plagued the franchise

Linearity isn't what's plaguing the franchise. Even the Genesis games are largely linear experiences that have you go from point a to point b (even if they have multiple paths and what not) and they're considered to be great games. In fact, there have been plenty of great and well designed linear games such as Crash Bandicoot, most 2D Mario games and more recently, Kirby and the Forgotten Land. Linearity isn't an inherently bad thing and making a game linear is not automatically a death sentence for a game.

Likewise, having a open world isn't a guarantee formula for success and there have been plenty of awful games that are open world. Look at Cyberpunk 2077 for instance, that game has an open world and was launched as a trash fire that can barely run on even higher end hardware. It's not some magical tool that can make a good game and it's not automatically gonna make Sonic good.

The problems that plague the franchise are far more complex and nuanced than mere linearity.

 

[BubbleButt TV]

14 minutes ago, TB100 said:

The problem is that current Sonic Team has no understanding on what makes for good level design, physics or control. Not  that the levels are linear.
 

 

it really just depends on who they get to work on this game

if you told me that the lead game designers of Generations are going to try their hand at an open world Sonic, I'd be immediately hyped

but I don't know what happened to those people. Did they leave or get hired by other companies? They had a good thing going with Generations. It's sad that they let that slip away.

[Zoomzeta]

There's a lot plaguing this franchise it seems. Anyone ready for a purge then? 

[McGroose]

1 hour ago, Zoomzeta said:

There's a lot plaguing this franchise it seems. Anyone ready for a purge then? 

What would be the best known alternative development team to make 3D Sonic games?

Asking what would be just a good alternative is way too easy a question, there's plenty of good answers to that question. But which one would be best?

[Scritch the Cat]

On 5/20/2022 at 11:18 AM, ComeAsYouAre said:

Forces might actually been a good thing if it forced Team Sonic to abandon The Linearity that plagued the franchise

Ideally, yes.  But I feel it's not a very smart decision for a company to go all-in on a drastic overhaul just because the last game wasn't as well-liked as the other games made in its mold.  The one thing I have completely agreed with Kuzu on in this thread is that Sonic Team never demonstrated that they learned all of what they should have to make a 3D Sonic game (Edit: I apologize for the earlier double-negative), and I see no reason to believe they've learned until they demonstrate that they have.  It seems like the most commonsense epiphany that before a company tries to make a game with gigantic 3D environments, it needs to verify it's able to make 3D environments at all.  Maybe you want to see an open-world as a breath of fresh air after suffering through the most linear Sonic game ever, but on a pragmatic level shifting a company from excessive linearity to the almost polar opposite carries a lot of risks.

In fact, it's not fair to call Sonic Forces a failure.  It's a thoroughly underwhelming game but it's not broken to the point of frustration.  While something like Sonic 06 can make people hate it who never cared otherwise about Sonic, with Sonic Forces it seems like the only people who hate it are Sonic fans.  For us, a Sonic game being so lackluster is a bummer because we wanted it to be something great, but given what the brand's been through, and is always right on the precipice of returning to, it's fortunate that Sonic Forces wasn't so awful that it brought a new storm of hatred and mockery to the brand, and it still sold well.  It apparently brought a lot of new fans to the series, if only because it was specifically designed as Baby's First Sonic Game.  But with something like Frontiers, which is a huge risk for Sonic Team, we're potentially one game away from Sonic becoming a laughing stock yet again, and what's worse is that would ruin what had been a streak of good publicity due to the movie.

Even if bad reactions to the linearity of Sonic Forces are indeed what caused Sonic Team to make an open-world game, bad reactions to that open-world game would likely cause them to retreat right back into linearity, so no, I wouldn't say going all-in now is a good thing.   However let's be real; they're not making an open-world Sonic game because people have grown to hate linear Sonic games; they're making an open-world Sonic game because open-world is the current cool thing for games to be.

22 hours ago, McGroose said:

What would be the best known alternative development team to make 3D Sonic games?

Asking what would be just a good alternative is way too easy a question, there's plenty of good answers to that question. But which one would be best?

I think the people behind Sonic's level and open world in LEGO Dimensions, and the people behind Sonic Speed Simulator, would be possible candidates, and it's certain that SEGA has been watching them and seeing how their takes on the brand are received.  But I'm kind of going off of gameplay philosophy and level structure alone there.  Unfortunately, while things like physics, camera and control are also incredibly important for Sonic, it's kind of hard to say who'd be good at doing those things because so few other companies attempt to make anything even close to Sonic.

[Wittymations]

On the subject of hypothetical narratives, I used to be one of the biggest advocates for "better stories" and the like for Sonic.

I'm not really sure I still believe in that after all these years of not really posting much about or caring for Sonic, like, at all. Didn't play Forces, didn't bother to watch the Sonic Movie.

Ian heading the writing section touches my curiosity, but a comic and game are different subjects. "We'll see."

Now, I don't really believe Sonic needs a "good story" because I think that suggests a narrative that has twists and turns, grabs you at an emotional level, and gets you really invested in characters. Things I don't think Sonic needs.

Rather, I'll actually advocate for a story that focuses more on action and has a rather superficial idea of "awesome stuff" happening. And do it so heavily, that it's actually kinda silly.

You strip out the Maria backstory and the romance section from Adventure 2, that's basically what it is. Just an action story about awesome stuff happening, blowing up islands, fighting the military, a giant truck that's too massive for any road chasing Sonic, a giant space laser cannon.

Even SA1 kinda does this pretty well, just with the Tikal backstory being a little sad.

Of course, that's my take. My opinion isn't always the popular one when it comes to this franchise.

[Johnster4]

1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

It apparently brought a lot of new fans to the series, if only because it was specifically designed as Baby's First Sonic Game.

That has literarily been every Sonic game since Colours as I have pointed out in this thread:

I swear catering to casuals and bringing "new fans" never works if you are a long time fans of not only Sonic but gaming in general, I have yet to see this game design philosophy benefit older gamers such as myself.

[StaticMania]

28 minutes ago, Johnster4 said:

...I have yet to see this game design philosophy benefit older gamers such as myself.

It doesn't have to.

[BubbleButt TV]

11 hours ago, Johnster4 said:

That has literarily been every Sonic game since Colours as I have pointed out in this thread:

I swear catering to casuals and bringing "new fans" never works if you are a long time fans of not only Sonic but gaming in general, I have yet to see this game design philosophy benefit older gamers such as myself.

I feel like Mario Odyssey is a good example of being complex enough to appeal to longtime fans but simple enough to welcome newcomers

[ComeAsYouAre]

I am young enough to remember back when I was a kid (23)

I definitely didn't want games I could finish In a day