Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[Kuzu]

Just now, Wraith said:

huh?

Story aside, I have seen people actually like how they were used in the Bonus quests where they're respective abilities are put to use. 

[Cosmos Rogue]

The missions in Generations where Sonic's friends help out are generally* palatable, especially compared to things like treasure hunting and the werehog from previous games, but they're still one of the weaker points in the game. I played the main levels over and over, but the side missions just once so I could advance the game, maybe twice to get the S rank. Personally, I'd rather the game had taken an all killer no filler approach and just had the main levels, but of course the game would have been just two hours long then and that's just not acceptable to modern audiences.

*I have no idea how Sonic Team thought Vector's mission was a good idea.

[Sega DogTagz]

9 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Story aside, I have seen people actually like how they were used in the Bonus quests where they're respective abilities are put to use. 

They were really hit or miss. I don't think anyone had anything nice to say about Rouge's mission for example.

[Wraith]

The generations missions are cute and fitting for an anniversary title but I haven't thought about them much after the first playthrough. I don't know anyone who has had much to say about them really.

I think they need to let go of the idea that they all need to be in every game. It's better to just focus on a few.

 

[knuckles20]

22 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I think how Generations handled them was a good compromise that I don't see many people criticize. They kind of serve as power ups of sorts; Knuckles can dig for this thing here, Blaze can hop around here, etc etc. 

Having then get kidnapped, rescued by Sonic A and B and then used as power ups to serve the two Sonics as opposed to fighting with him is far from a compromise. 

A real compromise would be after you save one of them, they’re added to the roster so when the player starts a new level or replay a previous one they can make the decision to choose between Sonic or any of the characters that were saved at that point. 

 

[Kuzu]

3 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

Having then get kidnapped, rescued by Sonic A and B and then used power ups to serve the two Sonics as opposed to fighting with him is far from a compromise. 

A real compromise would be after you save one of them, they’re added to the roster so when the player starts a new level they can make the decision to choose between Sonic or any of the characters that were saved at that point. 

 

Please read the thread.

16 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Story aside, I have seen people actually like how they were used in the Bonus quests where they're respective abilities are put to use. 

 

 

 

In any case, if Gens' missions aren't the way, then the only alternative is to just cycle through the cast. Every game doesn't need to focus on Tails as Sonic's main partner. Just shuffle who the main cast is per game like the Comics do, as every arc has Sonic team up with a different character for the story. 

Obviously some characters will get priority over others...like of course Tails is probably still gonna appear more than anyone short of Shadow, but that's the only way I can see all of these characters getting some chance to shine without stuffing them all into one game or just ignoring them entirety 

[Zaysho]

21 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I think how Generations handled them was a good compromise that I don't see many people criticize. They kind of serve as power ups of sorts; Knuckles can dig for this thing here, Blaze can hop around here, etc etc. 

I don't particularly like the idea of characters I like just being summonable assists because then I just don't see a functional difference between them and a power up or a Wisp, which would feel way less pace breaking. I would prefer to play as another (actual) character like Tails or Knux, but I also just don't expect them to try with it anymore, and when they do try with either another character or another form of Sonic, they feel more like padding to lengthen the game and just make things more unfocused. I don't believe it has to be that way, but I'm too used to how this series does it that I just don't expect them to pull it off in a satisfying way that isn't just pandering.

I'm ready to settle for them just playing an active role in the story as long as it's not any of the cheerleader or talking head bullshit they've been doing for the past ten years, and best if they focus on a small cast that actually fits a story/setting and not choose between Sonic and Tails or Sonic and everyone who just sits there. I can only hope Ian has enough leeway to mix things up in that category.

[Kuzu]

7 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

I don't particularly like the idea of characters I like just being summonable assists because then I just don't see a functional difference between them and a power up or a Wisp, which would feel way less pace breaking. I would prefer to play as another (actual) character like Tails or Knux, but I also just don't expect them to try with it anymore, and when they do try with either another character or another form of Sonic, they feel more like padding to lengthen the game and just make things more unfocused. I don't believe it has to be that way, but I'm too used to how this series does it that I just don't expect them to pull it off in a satisfying way that isn't just pandering.

I'm ready to settle for them just playing an active role in the story as long as it's not any of the cheerleader or talking head bullshit they've been doing for the past ten years, and best if they focus on a small cast that actually fits a story/setting and not choose between Sonic and Tails or Sonic and everyone who just sits there. I can only hope Ian has enough leeway to mix things up in that category.

I dunno. Its kind of hard to focus on a cast that isn't playable. The main reason they were so prominent in the early Dreamcast era is because they all had playable campaigns of their own, they didn't even have to interact with Sonic to really have a story arc of their own.  When the stories started to streamline and focus on Sonic as the core, there wasn't much room for that anymore, so a playable cast nowadays has to be tied to Sonic in some way to justify their presence. Its probably why Tails, Amy, Knuckles and Shadow are just so easy to throw in. Need a sidekick? you got Tails and Knuckles. Need a damsel to rescue, you have Amy, need a rival boss battle? You have Shadow and/or Metal Sonic. 

If this was something like the Comics or movies, that wouldn't be an issue. But this is a video game series at the end of the day and things will center around Sonic, who is the main playable character and always will be. 

[knuckles20]

9 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

If this was something like the Comics or movies, that wouldn't be an issue. But this is a video game series at the end of the day and things will center around Sonic, who is the main playable character and always will be. 

Sounds like another excuse for the writing team of the games to put in the absolute minimal effort. The comics and movies (particularly 2) were able to have Sonic's main guy status while giving focus on others. The idea that the same can't be achieved the moment Sonic steps foot in video games is laughable when there are plenty of video games series that have done so before. 

[Silvereyes]

I suppose the question is how much of an open world game Sonic Frontiers is, and if it'll take any cues from other open world, often RPG titles. An open world usually needs some NPCs, and usually means a good excuse to have side quests, and NPCs to give out said side quests. Would be a good way to fit in some cameos from the extended Sonic cast, even if just for some little exposure.

In terms of playable cast, I can't help but wonder if 2D Sonic would be the way to go to have a large playable cast. Considering how relatively simple 2D Sonic games are, at least in terms of player controls, with Sonic and Tails not having that much really to differentiate them, I often wondered if you could go down the path of having a game with like a dozen playable characters. Sonic is your standard base line, but then the later characters you could, for example, unlock in the game get weirder and more powerful abilities but also bigger downsides.

The other one I think of would be a fighting game. Especially considering fighting games are all about their casts and season passes adding more characters. You'd have to mine Sonic's list of characters to get at least 20 characters for your base roster and another 6 for the inevitable DLC. My dream would be something by Arcsys, as gorgeous as Dragon Ball FighterZ or Persona 4 Arena.

[Zaysho]

21 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I dunno. Its kind of hard to focus on a cast that isn't playable.

I guess I'm sorta contradicting my last post already but the only other option I can see (without them purely just being a tool you summon that's easily replaced with anything else) is something like the temp partners in Shadow the Hedgehog where they help for a level or even along the lines of entering the Divine Beasts of BotW where they actively get you where you need to go for your mission.

Really just something where they actually affect the narrative but not distract from everything else. Again, not my preferred option but after years of arguing and hoping for something better, I'm ready to compromise as long as they're used in a smart or interesting way that makes them feel valuable without changing the focus too much.

[Kuzu]

16 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

Sounds like another excuse for the writing team of the games to put in the absolute minimal effort. The comics and movies (particularly 2) were able to have Sonic's main guy status while giving focus on others. The idea that the same can't be achieved the moment Sonic steps foot in video games is laughable when there are plenty of video games series that have done so before. 

Video Games are functionally different mediums from Comics or Movies. Games need to be designed around the Gameplay AND the story, whereas Comics and Movies do not have to work around the former period, only the story matters in a comic or film. A comic or film can focus on any other set of characters and not really suffer too much for it depending on the genre. A video game cannot do that. 

What you're talking about would ONLY work under the assumption that gameplay matters less in a Video game than the story, and I hope I don't need to tell you why that isn't true. The main places where having a large cast of characters in a video game works are RPG's, Musou Games, and Multiplayer games like Fighting or Racing games. Sonic is a platforming series where historically, those games almost have always centered on one singular character. The Mario series revolves around Mario, Mega Mega revolves around Mega Man, and Sonic revolves around Sonic. Sure each of those franchises have had additional playable characters, but none of them to the levels of having over 10.  The most playable characters that have been in a main Mario game was four. 

Expecting Sonic to cycle through 15 recurring characters as the main focus, is shortsighted. It's not an excuse. If anything, it makes me think you don't really understand how game design works in the slightest. 

[ComeAsYouAre]

Would it been THAT hard to have Tails  assist Sonic in Colors Lost World and Forces  Boss Fights?  

 

If they had The Fucking Avatar and Classic Sonic Help why not Tails

[Kuzu]

18 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

I guess I'm sorta contradicting my last post already but the only other option I can see (without them purely just being a tool you summon that's easily replaced with anything else) is something like the temp partners in Shadow the Hedgehog where they help for a level or even along the lines of entering the Divine Beasts of BotW where they actively get you where you need to go for your mission.

Really just something where they actually affect the narrative but not distract from everything else. Again, not my preferred option but after years of arguing and hoping for something better, I'm ready to compromise as long as they're used in a smart or interesting way that makes them feel valuable without changing the focus too much.

Well this is more or less the Generations idea, just expanded a bit. Suppose its similar to Tails' flying stages...for better or worse. But yea, interacting with the level and helping Sonic through the level would go a long way at making them feel important without the need the making them playable. 

Crash 4 did that too actually as there are many points in the levels when something intervenes with the levels to help Crash/Coco proceed, and then later on you can play as the other characters and discover that it was the additional character's actions in their respective levels that helped. 

[Zoomzeta]

54 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Well this is more or less the Generations idea, just expanded a bit. Suppose its similar to Tails' flying stages...for better or worse. But yea, interacting with the level and helping Sonic through the level would go a long way at making them feel important without the need the making them playable. 

Crash 4 did that too actually as there are many points in the levels when something intervenes with the levels to help Crash/Coco proceed, and then later on you can play as the other characters and discover that it was the additional character's actions in their respective levels that helped. 

Intentionally or not.

[StaticMania]

2 hours ago, knuckles20 said:

A real compromise would be after you save one of them, they’re added to the roster so when the player starts a new level or replay a previous one they can make the decision to choose between Sonic or any of the characters that were saved at that point. 

Well, if everyone played like Luigi, I suppose the addition of 9 more playable characters is a compromise.

[Scritch the Cat]

6 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Something had to be done about the way they were handling the cast back then but the road they took clearly hasn't helped all that much, otherwise the Frontiers discourse would be a lot more positive and optimistic on here.

Besides the complete absence of gameplay footage, for me the big worry is that “the road they took” never proved that Sonic Team really learned how to do a Sonic game in 3D.  That they never made another game as broken as 06 is largely because they dramatically cut things out, and yes; the most immediately noticeable way might be by removing the rest of the playable characters, but another huge one is their plethora of limits on Sonic’s own 3D movement.  Every ostensibly 3D boost game has arbitrary shifts to 2D, some of them being mostly in 2D, and even in sections where they aren’t you’ll still have to deal with invisible walls confining you to a set path, when you aren’t on a fairly narrow path over a bottomless pit.
 

With all of the boost games rendering Sonic Team’s problems with 3D irrelevant, maybe they also solved them behind the scenes but they had no incentive to, and now that they’re making not only 3D environments but huge ones, they suddenly need those issues solved.

I hate to say this, but at the moment, with the movies having given Sonic the best reputation it has had in years, if not over a decade, it might actually be safer for Sonic Team to keep half-assing it, releasing unremarkable but clean games whose high sales are all-but assured by Sonic’s current popularity.  Another legendarily broken game would ruin that good streak.

[Sega DogTagz]

3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I dunno. Its kind of hard to focus on a cast that isn't playable.

I don't think that's true at all. Most of Sonic's side cast are about as nomadic as he is and can crop up anywhere and everywhere with minimal effort.

While they were technically playable, ShtH was a perfect example of that. Shadow ran into a different person at each of the 4 corners of the planet. The vast majority of those meet ups required very little explanation and were 1000% plausible given the events of the story. You bumped into Sonic in the middle of a city under siege, fighting to repel the invaders. You run into Espio hacking databases looking for clues. When you are knee deep in Eggman Robots, Omega is close by doing his thing. Its organic and natural. In fact, you wold almost expect to run into other heroes given the level of threat that is often presented.

 

It doesn't take clairvoyance level foresight to insert characters into the narrative in a way that gives them a chance to shine. All of them have vested interest in saving the world and its never too difficult to have their goals and motivations intertwine. Pick a couple that make sense for the narrative and roll with it. If the world is on the brink of collapse, I would imagine a small handful of Sonic's friends would make themselves very visible here and there.

 

One of the mistakes Unleashed had to deal with was the lack of heroics from other characters. Was no one else willing to try to save the world? Where was everyone else while all this was going down? Frontiers can make its Open World feel much more lively by leveraging the other charcters. Find a dungeon? What if one of your multiple resident treasure hunters beat you there and offers some tips as to what you might find within. Find a lake? What if Big is there too and can catolog and tells you what kind of fish you can scrape up in the waters so you know if there may be something you need in there before you waste your time with the obligatory fishing mini-game.  Little things go a long way.

[Kuzu]

11 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I don't think that's true at all. Most of Sonic's side cast are about as nomadic as he is and can crop up anywhere and everywhere with minimal effort.

While they were technically playable, ShtH was a perfect example of that. Shadow ran into a different person at each of the 4 corners of the planet. The vast majority of those meet ups required very little explanation and were 1000% plausible given the events of the story. You bumped into Sonic in the middle of a city under siege, fighting to repel the invaders. You run into Espio hacking databases looking for clues. When you are knee deep in Eggman Robots, Omega is close by doing his thing. Its organic and natural. In fact, you wold almost expect to run into other heroes given the level of threat that is often presented.

 

It doesn't take clairvoyance level foresight to insert characters into the narrative in a way that gives them a chance to shine. All of them have vested interest in saving the world and its never too difficult to have their goals and motivations intertwine. Pick a couple that make sense for the narrative and roll with it. If the world is on the brink of collapse, I would imagine a small handful of Sonic's friends would make themselves very visible here and there.

 

One of the mistakes Unleashed had to deal with was the lack of heroics from other characters. Was no one else willing to try to save the world? Where was everyone else while all this was going down? Frontiers can make its Open World feel much more lively by leveraging the other charcters. Find a dungeon? What if one of your multiple resident treasure hunters beat you there and offers some tips as to what you might find within. Find a lake? What if Big is there too and can catolog and tells you what kind of fish you can scrape up in the waters so you know if there may be something you need in there before you waste your time with the obligatory fishing mini-game.  Little things go a long way.

Now while I don't mind this solution all that much and its probably one of the better ones. At the same time, I do sorta feel like it devalues the uniqueness of the supporting cast a bit if Sonic just keeps meeting the same batch of characters in every game, and they all just so happen to have the same goals as you of saving the world. 

BUT, at the same time, there's really not much of an alternative I can think of short of these characters just not appearing all that much period, which I wouldn't mind personally, but I understand ruffle the feathers of a lot of fans. So, fuck it. 

[expansivelovestories]

On 5/13/2022 at 9:23 PM, Scritch the Cat said:

Yes, and it's pretty weird how we went from Sonic Mania, Sonic Forces, and the possible seizure fuel that was Team Sonic Racing, to this dark and drab world.  BOTW also benefited from a distinctive visual style that prevented its world from looking too bleak and trite.  This game looks like Sonic's still-cartoony model shoved into stock Unreal Engine terrain.

On 5/14/2022 at 5:12 AM, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Every time I look at that trailer I actually get more impressed by it. I keep noticing new things that I didn't see before and the allure of running through all that feels like it fits my sensiblities perfectly.

Despite that, summoning excitement for it hasn't happened yet. Forces really did a number on me.

Yes, i'm not sure how they did it but i think it was some sort of aftereffect of showing the landscapes by themselves that made it hard to correctly remember the trailer. 

There is a huge field with so many flowers growing from it, with an absolutely giant waterfall behind it, which is definitely not drab; but, i forgot it was shown!!   

I feel like there will be at least some emphasis in the game for taking time in between simply exploring these islands rather than always having an objective to clear.

I do agree with you Scritch that this game will need smooth, flowing natural fonts to add to the energy of the experience, rather than gritty or otherwise over-serious fonts!!    Also a really good menu system!!

[Sega DogTagz]

19 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Now while I don't mind this solution all that much and its probably one of the better ones. At the same time, I do sorta feel like it devalues the uniqueness of the supporting cast a bit if Sonic just keeps meeting the same batch of characters in every game, and they all just so happen to have the same goals as you of saving the world.

 

Thats the fun part about all this. Sonic's cast is unique enough that if you do apply the smallest amount of creativity, you don't have to just trot out the same "lets work together to save the world" narrative. Some characters can show up with downright conflicting narratives that hinder you as much as they help you.

Spot a valuable trinket? What if the Babylon Rouges swoop in and snatch it right from under your nose, forcing you to switch gears; track and run them down. Omega can threaten to destroy valuable Eggman tech that you need to research for clues - creating a dire race to get to the target before he reduces it to ashes. Shadow can just stand around being a jerk. Rouge can straight up steal Chaos Emeralds from you, Setting you back.

Even non-antagonistic characters can have unique angles. Maybe someone hires the Chaotix to get the inside scoop on an annoying expose on Sonic - forcing you to evade their prodding. Maybe Silver is following his own leads on how to save to world, and there aren't enough magic magguffins of the day to go around. Maybe Amy is on a Sonic Hunt and you are constantly forced to abandon parts of the map to stay out of her grasp.

 

There is nothing that can de-value the uniqueness of the cast at face value that cannot be overcome with even a tiny bit of creativity. Also, there are enough of these fuzzy critters running around that you could rotate these suckers around enough as to where they don't overstay their welcome and remain fresh for the next time you see them.

 

I think Frontiers has a golden opportunity to make a good chunk of the cast relevant again, even if they aren't playable.

[Kuzu]

Yea, I can accept that and think its an good compromise actually. 

[Scritch the Cat]

1 hour ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

Thats the fun part about all this. Sonic's cast is unique enough that if you do apply the smallest amount of creativity, you don't have to just trot out the same "lets work together to save the world" narrative. Some characters can show up with downright conflicting narratives that hinder you as much as they help you.

Spot a valuable trinket? What if the Babylon Rouges swoop in and snatch it right from under your nose, forcing you to switch gears; track and run them down. Omega can threaten to destroy valuable Eggman tech that you need to research for clues - creating a dire race to get to the target before he reduces it to ashes. Shadow can just stand around being a jerk. Rouge can straight up steal Chaos Emeralds from you, Setting you back.

Even non-antagonistic characters can have unique angles. Maybe someone hires the Chaotix to get the inside scoop on an annoying expose on Sonic - forcing you to evade their prodding. Maybe Silver is following his own leads on how to save to world, and there aren't enough magic magguffins of the day to go around. Maybe Amy is on a Sonic Hunt and you are constantly forced to abandon parts of the map to stay out of her grasp.

 

There is nothing that can de-value the uniqueness of the cast at face value that cannot be overcome with even a tiny bit of creativity. Also, there are enough of these fuzzy critters running around that you could rotate these suckers around enough as to where they don't overstay their welcome and remain fresh for the next time you see them.

 

I think Frontiers has a golden opportunity to make a good chunk of the cast relevant again, even if they aren't playable.

 

24 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Yea, I can accept that and think its an good compromise actually. 

Just as many people would hate that.  Fans who thought of those characters as heroes or at least antiheroes would be enraged to see them made into antagonists, while people who hate them would likely find them even more obnoxious if they’re constantly impeding Sonic’s progress in a quest that’s ostensibly about something more important.

Also stalker Amy is an aspect of this series that has aged REALLY badly.  Maybe there was a time passionate but unrequited love was considered a cute and innocent part of youth, but after too many high profile lust-crazed criminals, not a lot of people are comfortable with it anymore.  In an era when becoming familiar with Sonic puts people within striking distance of becoming familiar with Chris Chan, I think the series would be wise to steer clear of such characters unless they’re relentlessly mocked and belittled.

[Kuzu]

If people are going to complain no matter what, I fail to see why that should be a deterrent. 

[Sega DogTagz]

9 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

 

Just as many people would hate that.  Fans who thought of those characters as heroes or at least antiheroes would be enraged to see them made into antagonists, while people who hate them would likely find them even more obnoxious if they’re constantly impeding Sonic’s progress in a quest that’s ostensibly about something more important.

 

Also stalker Amy is an aspect of this series that has aged REALLY badly.  Maybe there was a time passionate but unrequited love was considered a cute and innocent part of youth, but after too many high profile lust-crazed criminals, not a lot of people are comfortable with it anymore.  In an era when becoming familiar with Sonic puts people within striking distance of becoming familiar with Chris Chan, I think the series would be wise to steer clear of such characters unless they’re relentlessly mocked and belittled.

I was just spitballing stuff of the top of my head. If I even put a tiny bit of effort into it, I'm sure I could hammer out one or two scenario's that the majority would be able to find agreeable (because obviously, somebody's always going to have a problem with something). That Amy scenario was a joke btw.

I mean, just using Amy as an example, we could easily take her lore and personality and give her a justifiable purpose in a game like this. Have her "tailing" Sonic as he makes his away across the map, spawning at a small handful of important landmarks that he has already passed through. She could serve the function of highlighting things you might have missed on your first trip through, and she may even be able to help you reach areas that you couldn't before, adding in a need to backtrack every once and a while.

Now you've got a helpful companion who will assist you in saving time in areas that you have already explored, while also playing into Amy's Sonic Radar, her goals of being helpful to Sonic and so long as the dialog doesn't go off the deep end, you can easily duck most of the muck that comes from the stalker era. I for one, trust that Flynn can handle something like that.

 

Presentation is half the battle for these kinds of things. If the supporting cast is funny and/or endearing in their appearances, then quite a bit of everything else gets a pass or benefit of the doubt. If Vector is hounding you for spare change during a lull in the story, it can be cute. If he's still doing it during the climax, then it becomes a problem.

I think having a professional on board who is extremely in tune with fandom criticism makes a world of difference. Probably the biggest reason I really want Frontiers to lean on the extended cast is because of him. He has a track record of knowing how these characters are viewed and where and when to put them to allow them to play to their strengths.