Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

So does the second video actually get into why the characters work or does it just recite basic facts about them like the first one?

All of his videos are like that for the record, just to save you a click. 

1 minute ago, Guy Strong said:

I've wanted exactly this since Unleashed. I'm one of the unfortunate people who got into Sonic in the early 2000s, so I grew up when the series having a big playable cast was the standard, and I liked it that way (and still do). It's not hard to see how people who got into Sonic during that era really lost something when the series shifted to the solo-sonica era.

Besides, Sonic is especially perfect for extra content like that because literally every character this series has to offer can be spun into playing like Sonic with minor changes, as has historically been the case even during the classic era. The boost games had everyone saying "this gameplay only suits Sonic", but that never really jived with me, especially years later games like Speed Battle showing how a character like Big could be given a makeshift boost and it still works. It'd be relatively low effort to make and a harmless addition that would only make fans of the characters happy, all the while still being able to tell whatever "story" they want to tell without having to shoehorn any characters who don't belong into the main campaign.

I know I would've been ecstatic to get Vector, Espio, or Knuckles DLC for Generations.

I mean, they're functionally just skins in Speed Battle. Which is FINE, but why not just play that instead?

[StaticMania]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I understand that Modern game design abhors short games (for some fucking reason)...

People value games by length.

Most people don't replay games anymore.

Companies want their game to have longer staying power.

[Kuzu]

3 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

People value games by length.

Most people don't replay games anymore.

Companies want their game to have longer staying power.

I have never been fond of this mindset and I think that's been doing more harm than good. But this isn't the time for me being a Boomer. 

[Muscles Maximum]

11 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I mean, they're functionally just skins in Speed Battle. Which is FINE, but why not just play that instead?

You can't compare a mobile game to a full blown 3D game like Generations and expect anyone to just go and play that and be satisfied.

And I'm not really meaning the characters be literal copy paste skins, but have their core gameplay be like Sonic's, but with minor changes. I don't think there'd be any harm in having someone like Knuckles in Generations, but replace the homing attack with a quick glide, slow down his boost a bit, and let him cling to walls that Sonic must use wall jumps to clear. Stuff like that.

Mind you, these are minor changes to characters this series has been doing since Sonic 3, I'm just using a boost game as a modern example of how they might make characters differ while keeping the core the same.

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, Guy Strong said:

You can't compare a mobile game to a full blown 3D game like Generations and expect anyone to just go and play that and be satisfied.

And I'm not really meaning the characters be literal copy paste skins, but have their core gameplay be like Sonic's, but with minor changes. I don't think there'd be any harm in having someone like Knuckles in Generations, but replace the homing attack with a quick glide, slow down his boost a bit, and let him cling to walls that Sonic must use wall jumps to clear. Stuff like that.

But Boosting is inherently about keeping a fast pace and reacting to obstacles, something Knuckles' abilities have never been suited for. Historically, his 3D incarnations have been more explorative based, as opposed to speed based.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

10 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Been mostly going by the critical reception these games have had. Don't see a reason why they still wouldn't apply today. 

Times have changed a lot and we’ve come to see what the actual problems really were.

For example—Unleashed did away with multiple characters and still repeated the same mistake of past games by including an entirely different style of gameplay. 

We’ve come a long way from see what was wrong and ideally should have a better idea of coming up with solutions beyond things like “multiple characters being an issue” for folks to to go back to repeating those points again.

[Muscles Maximum]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

But Boosting is inherently about keeping a fast pace and reacting to obstacles, something Knuckles' abilities have never been suited for. Historically, his 3D incarnations have been more explorative based, as opposed to speed based.

Sure, but nobody likes Knuckles' exploration based gameplay though right? They'd never go and make that mistake again. So it's either he's never playable in a 3D space ever again or just make him closer to Sonic.

 

So I'd rather they make him play more like Sonic does and give him and all the others more speed based gameplay and that'd make just about everyone happy. The biggest complaint people have with a game like SA2 is that they just wanna go back to playing as Sonic and Shadow. I think something like that is a pretty effective compromise.

Don't get me wrong I'd fucking LOVE a game where I can play as Vector and just bite, shove, and piledrive robots all while finding 10 hidden crabs, but that's never going to happen so I'll take what I can get and compromise where I can. 

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, Guy Strong said:

Sure, but nobody likes Knuckles' exploration based gameplay though right? They'd never go and make that mistake again. So it's either he's never playable in a 3D space ever again or just make him closer to Sonic.

 

So I'd rather they make him play more like Sonic does and give him and all the others more speed based gameplay and that'd make just about everyone happy. The biggest complaint people have with a game like SA2 is that they just wanna go back to playing as Sonic and Shadow. I think something like that is a pretty effective compromise.

Don't get me wrong I'd fucking LOVE a game where I can play as Vector and just bite, shove, and piledrive robots all while finding 10 hidden crabs, but that's never going to happen so I'll take what I can get and compromise where I can. 

Fair enough, I just think its kind of a waste imo. Its why I hope Frontiers opens the door for him to playable in a game that better takes advantage of his abilities. Can't see much point in playing as Knuckles if he doesn't have the shit that's unique to him. 

 

6 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Times have changed a lot and we’ve come to see what the actual problems really were.

For example—Unleashed did away with multiple characters and still repeated the same mistake of past games by including an entirely different style of gameplay. 

We’ve come a long way from see what was wrong and ideally should have a better idea of coming up with solutions beyond things like “multiple characters being an issue” for folks to to go back to repeating those points again.

I have never thought the characters themselves were the problem, but at the same time, I also understand that having a game with multiple playable characters and all of whom play uniquely different, just isn't something that can be sustained. There's kind of reason games don't really do it anymore outside of exceptions like Super Mario 3D World, and that's not something they always do. 

Multiple playable characters should be a novelty when it happens, not a standard that should be in every game. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

37 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I have never thought the characters themselves were the problem, but at the same time, I also understand that having a game with multiple playable characters and all of whom play uniquely different, just isn't something that can be sustained. There's kind of reason games don't really do it anymore outside of exceptions like Super Mario 3D World, and that's not something they always do. 

Multiple playable characters should be a novelty when it happens, not a standard that should be in every game. 

Well, they won’t by not attempting at all.

I know they’ve been faultering for decades, but by now I know Sonic is strong enough to make slight pushes. And maybe along the way they can try new ones and see how they pan out.

Like, I’m skeptical as much as the next fan, but we’re not in 2006 anymore. I know we don’t want Sonic to fuck up and repeat the past, but I still want him to try.

[Kuzu]

12 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Well, they won’t by not attempting at all.

I know they’ve been faultering for decades, but by now I know Sonic is strong enough to make slight pushes. And maybe along the way they can try new ones and see how they pan out.

Like, I’m skeptical as much as the next fan, but we’re not in 2006 anymore. I know we don’t want Sonic to fuck up and repeat the past, but I still want him to try.

Well Boosting wasn't really accommodating to anyone but Sonic (and later Shadow). So they're gonna need to design a game around Sonic's core design but still leaves enough room open for more characters.

 

I'm honestly surprised they haven't leveraged DLC as much as they could. Forces is pretty much the first time they've done additional characters as DLC when the practice has been standard for over ten years now.

[Scritch the Cat]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

So does the second video actually get into why the characters work or does it just recite basic facts about them like the first one?

 

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

All of his videos are like that for the record, just to save you a click.

See, these sorts of responses are why I don't like to dignify you two with very articulate explanations of my points.  Nothing necessarily goes beyond that I like things that you don't, but why does it have to?  Enough people agree with me that I'm not going to waste time with others who are so utterly rude to their opponents.

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I personally believe they should have just kept the games short then, and let what was there speak for itself. Sonic games in general do not take very long to complete, because they're meant to be replayed multiple times in order for the player to master them. A game like Super Mario Odyssey only takes roughly 12 hours to beat on a normal playthrough, when the average game length nowadays is like 40 hours. Platformers, by their very nature as a more arcade experience, aren't meant to last long if you just play them once. 

Rather than understand this and just design games around that concept, Sega chose to pad the 3D games out and compromise their core game design, just to meet a length quota and they're still suffering it for it to this day. I understand that Modern game design abhors short games (for some fucking reason) outside of indie titles, but I don't really know what else they can do. Most of the other 3D platformers released nowadays are pretty short affairs, but Sega is the only one who insisted on throwing more and more compromising gameplay styles and sure enough, they couldn't sustain it. 

If having a well designed Sonic game means a short experience, then so fucking be it. Sonic Mania isn't a long game at all and that didn't stop it from earning accolades all around. So Sega's mindset of padding the game out was fucking bullshit to begin with, and the fact they couldn't even understand that for over 20 years is the sad part.

I love Sonic Mania and do replay it a lot, but honestly, that's about the only Classic Sonic game I care to replay as much as they hoped.  Frankly, I think Yuji Naka presumed a bit too much in assuming that getting a lot better at games automatically makes them more fun.  I gave up on Sonic 2 until I could get ahold of a version that has a save feature added, and even after that and even after getting good at the game, I still don't consider it all that fun.  Also, Mania has quite a lot of additional content to unlock if you like.

To be frank, multiple play styles, perspectives and characters are the thing I loved about the Adventure era.  And I know many other people feel the same way.  I understand why that comes off as blasphemous to the Classic fans, but even if you think SEGA made the wrong choice that doesn't mean SEGA made a bad game in itself.  The Adventure era games have a lot of fans, like it or not, and while they may only qualify as Sonic games sometimes, I don't see what's innately wrong with having multiple different play styles in a game.  I actually like the extra abilities added by that, compared to Classic Sonic's relatively limited set of moves that I feel is simple to a fault.

In short, there is no winning this argument.  But it's stupid for either cluster of fans to act like the other doesn't exist.

[Kuzu]

10 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

 

See, these sorts of responses are why I don't like to dignify you two with very articulate explanations.

I don't really get what you're upset about. I didn't say anything wrong and you aren't refuting it either so clearly there's a ring of truth to it.

I've watched every single one of that channel's videos and none of his videos are in any way insightful or providing any new information that isn't already known.

Its the same type of video essay almost every other youtuber spits out that just goes over basic information and stretches it out for over an hour.

 

 

So once again, what information is being provided in these videos that isn't something we already know? I've watched a million "old good, new bad" videos about Sonic and very few of them actually say anything new.

[Scritch the Cat]

35 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I don't really get what you're upset about. I didn't say anything wrong and you aren't refuting it either so clearly there's a ring of truth to it.

I've watched every single one of that channel's videos and none of his videos are in any way insightful or providing any new information that isn't already known.

Its the same type of video essay almost every other youtuber spits out that just goes over basic information and stretches it out for over an hour.

 

 

So once again, what information is being provided in these videos that isn't something we already know? I've watched a million "old good, new bad" videos about Sonic and very few of them actually say anything new.

The point is that I attempted to provide an explanation for why people like these characters, when it was requested, and was shat on as a result.  You and Wraith didn't necessarily say anything factually wrong but sometimes it's more polite not to say anything at all.

2 hours ago, Guy Strong said:

So I'd rather they make him play more like Sonic does and give him and all the others more speed based gameplay and that'd make just about everyone happy. The biggest complaint people have with a game like SA2 is that they just wanna go back to playing as Sonic and Shadow. I think something like that is a pretty effective compromise.

Don't get me wrong I'd fucking LOVE a game where I can play as Vector and just bite, shove, and piledrive robots all while finding 10 hidden crabs, but that's never going to happen so I'll take what I can get and compromise where I can. 

You know, this begs a question: Why aren't there more spinoffs?  SEGA clearly doesn't mind lending the Sonic license to games that play nothing like the quintessential Sonic game--ie, those Olympics games, or any of the numerous things they've done Sonic collabs with--and they know that being related to Sonic gives them brand recognition.  These characters are at the very least popular enough to make people want to grind and pop for them in gacha games.  Plenty of art assets exist for them.  So why not try to do at least a little with them in side projects?  They can start small if they're skeptical, but do something.  I think there are, in fact, profits to be had in this, without the risk of mucking up another style of game.

[Celestia]

55 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

The point is that I attempted to provide an explanation for why people like these characters, when it was requested, and was shat on as a result.  You and Wraith didn't necessarily say anything factually wrong but sometimes it's more polite not to say anything at all.

Nobody was shitting on you. I think you coming into this conversation and being bizarrely aggressive (for example, calling people disagreeing with you "adversaries") maybe makes some bluntness fair!

 

I think it's true that a big part of the reason the main games haven't made Tails and Knuckles in particular playable is not only that they wouldn't fit into the boost, but even in something more open, there are really obvious challenges that would have to be overcome. It's not even a game balance thing--I assume they wouldn't care if Tails was basically the easy mode for platforming sections no matter what, since it always felt like that was the point--but building levels that are fun to navigate as them is another story. I think the best bet would be if the levels were really dense than what we ended up getting for most 3D Sonic levels, like the (in)famous beta Windy Valley, but the problem with that is you need a lot more time and resources than they probably have developing this mascot-ass series. (That and camera/physics jank, and to be frank the only reason those issues improved was because they increasingly streamlined the games.)

I think, uh, part of what they're doing with Frontiers kind of opens the door a little, but yeah the whole combat and exp and all that bullshit does make it seem less likely. I don't think it's outright impossible but I'd be really shocked. The characters being assists in the game would actually be pretty cool, to bring this all back around to a bunch of pages ago, lol

I actually agree people should just be blunt about liking the characters and wanting them around if they do. It really doesn't matter since it's out of our hands anyway, and in most contexts I don't like the Sonic fanbase thing where you need to add an asterisk like "also I want the gameplay and story to be good " because...no shit? But again, there is a practical side of it that we have to consider from the game development side. Some of it is because of decisions they've made for sure but the rest of it is just the nature of making games, or not having the right talent or ideas, etc.

[Scritch the Cat]

7 minutes ago, Celestia said:

I think, uh, part of what they're doing with Frontiers kind of opens the door a little, but yeah the whole combat and exp and all that bullshit does make it seem less likely.

Why?!  I don’t consider the other characters likely by default, but I don’t see why more involved combat decreases their chances since many of the other characters were conceived with more combat in mind.

[Celestia]

3 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Why?!  I don’t consider the other characters likely by default, but I don’t see why more involved combat decreases their chances since many of the other characters were conceived with more combat in mind.

Because that would be a lot more time and effort than what they've had to expend for some time now. I wouldn't even judge them for not wanting to have to deal with even one or two other characters with how ambitious this seems to be regardless of if you think the ideas are actually good or not. (I, for one, still don't know how to feel about what we know about this game.) Like, Kuzu brought up 3D World before as an example of a rare modern platformer with a few playable characters, right? That game is not only very restricted in it's movement, but the SMB2-style character differences aren't nearly as extreme as full on flight or being able to climb every wall.

Like I said it's not impossible, I would just be surprised.

[Dr. Detective]

9 hours ago, StaticMania said:

In Heroes?

For the Chaotix specifically?

If only.

Bad time to admit that every time I return to Heroes, I head straight for the Chaotix story first.

I'm sorry for wanting them back so much guys. I can't help myself. 

All this arguing doesn't even really matter since 15 years after 2006 is probably enough time to realize playability like what I used to dream of for the others ain't happening.

At least tell a good story with them. Let them do stuff in the plot. 

...Nah. Fuck settling for that. I at the very least want 3D Tails playable again eventually. I'll give up on the others. Just give me him.

[ComeAsYouAre]

Sonic wouldn't have gotten away with having a short 3D game in the 90s. Especially after Mario 64. 

 

To this day A lot of 3D Mario fans don't even consider 3D World and Land to be "true" 3D Mario Games because of how short and Linear they are.

[Kuzu]

10 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

Sonic wouldn't have gotten away with having a short 3D game in the 90s. Especially after Mario 64. 

Yet Crash and Spyro were able to do just that turned out just fine. Funny how that works.

10 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

 

To this day A lot of 3D Mario fans don't even consider 3D World and Land to be "true" 3D Mario Games because of how short and Linear they are.

Those people are probably stupid then.

[Dr. Detective]

It's hard hearing people say that the games and characters you loved and grew up with were and still are considered a detrimemt to the series. I've always been a champion for the notion of simply giving them good gameplay but it's been too long. We're long past the point where they'll feel any obligation to try.

For the record, I don't and never will feel like it was fair to blame the friends for the gameplay they were given. It's not like Sonic played like a dream in 06 when Silver came along either but the horrible sad truth is that Sonic had already proven himself by that point. Silver didn't. That game was his debut and the internet fucking hated him for it.

It was worse, far worse, than what gets lobbed at the Zeti today.

It's just a really, shitty, unfortunate situation. I can dream of playing as the Modern Chaotix again all I want but the stigma of almost 20 years ago isn't going away. Not unless they take steps to make it go away by doing what they should have done and make the gameplay better.

I love Sonic Heroes. I love that game to death. I think it's a great, fun time.

I'd be daft to not admit that it had tons of room for improvement. If a remake were to happen, holy shit would it not be a good idea to leave a ton of what that game does as is. Even I wouldn't take that well.

I can admit that. I don't have to like it but I've accepted it. It still hurts hearing other people say it though.

Imagine that. I'm almost 30 and that shit still hurts to hear. I love that game too much.

[BubbleButt TV]

I feel like this conversation has really gone round in circles

To bring things back to Frontiers all I will say is you should absolutely not expect any alternate playable characters. You're going to be very disappointed if you keep building up an imaginary idea of how they will play in Frontiers because it's probably not gonna happen.

I'd love to see Tails, Knuckles and Amy be playable again if they can figure out a way to make them work. 

The extended cast is a bit up in the air because there are so many at this point and how do you even choose who gets to be playable and who doesn't?

 

[Wraith]

49 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

It's hard hearing people say that the games and characters you loved and grew up with were and still are considered a detrimemt to the series. I've always been a champion for the notion of simply giving them good gameplay but it's been too long. We're long past the point where they'll feel any obligation to try.

For the record, I don't and never will feel like it was fair to blame the friends for the gameplay they were given. It's not like Sonic played like a dream in 06 when Silver came along either but the horrible sad truth is that Sonic had already proven himself by that point. Silver didn't. That game was his debut and the internet fucking hated him for it.

It was worse, far worse, than what gets lobbed at the Zeti today.

It's just a really, shitty, unfortunate situation. I can dream of playing as the Modern Chaotix again all I want but the stigma of almost 20 years ago isn't going away. Not unless they take steps to make it go away by doing what they should have done and make the gameplay better.

I love Sonic Heroes. I love that game to death. I think it's a great, fun time.

I'd be daft to not admit that it had tons of room for improvement. If a remake were to happen, holy shit would it not be a good idea to leave a ton of what that game does as is. Even I wouldn't take that well.

I can admit that. I don't have to like it but I've accepted it. It still hurts hearing other people say it though.

Imagine that. I'm almost 30 and that shit still hurts to hear. I love that game too much.

I appreciate you being honest and saying you love the game so much that the scathing critique stings. Usually these arguments are in this awkward middle ground where it's clear someone being a little too blunt about a game someone else liked caused some hurt feelings but they aren't allowed to just say that. 

And to be real, when I read certain things about games like Sonic Riders or Sonic Rush Adventure I make a face like something just stung me so I get it. 

5 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

 

See, these sorts of responses are why I don't like to dignify you two with very articulate explanations of my points.  Nothing necessarily goes beyond that I like things that you don't, but why does it have to?  Enough people agree with me that I'm not going to waste time with others who are so utterly rude to their opponents.

 

 You repeatedly failed to defend your point even when I was being polite. If you really felt no obligation to respond you wouldn't have. 

 

[Roger_van_der_weide]

There's one hope spot for multiple characters: Good old DLC/ Season Pack junk.
Because YOU BET Sega's going to make sure they insert all kinds of microtransaction trickery in there to make sure they get their money's worth to make up for this game's long development time. If a cute little game like Sonic origins already has 4 different special editions, just wait for its big brother.
And what's a better way to get Sonic fans forking over stacks of cash then dangling a shiny Shadow The Hedgehog in front of them?

Especially since, looking at the landscapes we got so far, Frontiers seems to be throwing platforming gameplay out of an airlock.
And if the gameplay is probably going to be mostly combat orientated, Knuckles and Tails' moveset will be easier to translate into this gameworld.

I know most people are allergic and fearful of the microtransaction circus, and with good reason, but after a decade of bare bone Sonic games, I don't mind paying a little extra to finally play a Sonic game again with even half the content we used to get in these.



....That said, after a decade of Sonic games that redefined the meaning of "Bare minimum", I guess we should never underestimate their ability to take an easy way out.
So we might just get some nonsense like paying DLC money to get a "Chaotix Badge" that merely gives Sonic new fighting moves inspired by the Chaotix, rather then our beloved Detective trio busting some heads in person.
Never underestimate Sonic Team's talent of giving you exactly what you want in the most irritating, stupid and counterproductive manner possible.

[Kuzu]

Just wanna set the record straight, I have nothing against the supporting cast. I'm fairly fond of a lot of them and I think Sonic has a pretty great supporting cast overall. Nothing deep or anything, they're just all cool and interesting in their own way.

And yea, it does suck there isn't really a context where they can shine and be appreciated; I understand why Sega are reluctant to leave these characters behind, because they all add something to Sonic's world.

In an ideal world, we'd be getting character spin offs left and right to let these guys shine without needing to be attached to Sonic's hip. Its why things like the comics, tv shows, and movies are so appealing because you don't have to worry about the needs of gameplay.

[Indigo Rush]

The fault lies with Sonic Team for setting a decades-and-a-half long precedent of introducing new, important characters with every major release (and spin-offs, to boot) before realizing that it was getting very out of hand. They were right to pump the brakes on adding more characters and focusing on a few at a time, but by only featuring Sonic as playable for so long they've overcorrected to the point that fans from the beginning towards 2006 have yet to cease begging to play as anything that isn't Sonic. It's a right mess and Sonic Team has no one to blame but themselves.