Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[BubbleButt TV]

35 minutes ago, Iko said:

This said, I like Orbot & Cubot, and I think they should use them for bigger stuff than just being comic relief sidekicks (as I suggested in the past, I think they should be used for minibosses, combined to bigger bodies like the Egg Mobile does, and when you destroy the thing, they detach and run away, like the Egg Mobile indeed).

same, I never understood the hate for Orbot and Cubot. I liked Orbot in Unleashed (or SASS I think is what his original name was) so I was pretty happy to see him return.

I hope they show up in Frontiers because I really wanna see what Flynn does with them. I would be disappointed if they disappeared altogether. 

I always thought it was pretty lazy to just get rid of a disliked character instead of taking the time to actually re-work and improve them. It's like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, BubbleButt TV said:

I always thought it was pretty lazy to just get rid of a disliked character instead of taking the time to actually re-work and improve them. It's like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

All Sonic fans do is complain about things they don't like and wish they were gone; they did it in the 2000's, hence why there are no characters besides Sonic playable, and the stories are streamlined significantly.  And they're doing it right now in regards to the Deadly Six and the entire of the 2010's. All Sonic fans know is how to do is complain, because everyone wants what they want and will not compromise on it. 

I'm not gonna generalize and say "BAW, SONIC FANS ARE UNPLEASABLE" but the fact is, every product Sonic produces is someone's first exposure to it, and Sonic's products vary so wildly, it's next to impossible to properly gauge what people actually want and what's popular. Sonictubers will make these video essay talking how much the Meta era sucks and destroyed the characters, and then we'll fast forward a few years later, and then we'll get a bunch of bitter kids who start praising the Meta era and start trashing whatever the fuck comes next, it's never going to stop, ever.  Its why every new Sonic game tends to get such high expectations thrusted upon it. Because everyone wants that game, the one that is going to just magically give the fandom what they want and satisfy everyone, or at least their own personal ideal of what Sonic "should" be. 

Sonic Frontiers has the extremely unenviable task of: satisfying the group of Sonic fans who want a game that accurately follows up on the Classic titles in terms of mechanics, while at the same time satisfying the group who prefers Sonic's supporting cast all playing some type of major role within the narrative, doing all of that while still feeling like a proper evolution of the series that steps it forward. While at the time being an entry point for the new fans that will be arriving with the advent of the Movie.  All of that, while on a limited schedule and budget and whatever the else happens during the development cycle. 

The longer the Sonic series continues to exist, the harder it gets to satisfy all of these people. And when Sonic fans aren't satisfied with something, people will definitely hear about it. 

[ComeAsYouAre]

In the end of the day if the games are good, Critcs are gonna overlook aspects they might not like personally. 

 

We mentioned BOTW earlier, a lot of critics and Older Fans  may not have liked certain aesthetics and characters in the game but nobody is gonna give the game a 80 score because of It. Same goes for a lot of franchises 

 

Sonic Advance and Rush got high Ratings , so Did The Adventure titles 

 

If Sega reelases several decent games with multiple playable characters the meme would die, especially as younger Journalists who don't remember a time where The Sonic Franchise didn't have several characters  are entering the Industry 

[Kuzu]

26 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

 

 

If Sega reelases several decent games with multiple playable characters the meme would die, especially as younger Journalists who don't remember a time where The Sonic Franchise didn't have several characters  are entering the Industry 

The reverse is also true btw, if they release a game with Sonic as the only playable character and its still good, it's going to review well no matter what. 

Which goes back to what someone said; whether the characters are around or not, is irrelevant compared to the game just being on its own merits already. 

[Scar]

10 hours ago, BubbleButt TV said:

Frontiers art style is definitely a huge change from Forces and Lost World. Sachiko Kawamura has been doing art direction since Unleashed. In fact both her and Yoshihisa Hashimoto were a big part of why Unleashed looked really good. I think maybe she's trying to evoke a similar style that she did with Unleashed

So if anything I think Frontiers art style will be more similar to Unleashed than '06.

Fucking Hope so. Unleashed is the best looking 3D Sonic game ever made.

Take that game, add anisotropic filtering, higher resolution textures and a few more polygons + a good bit of spit and polish, and it would look incredible today on the PS5/Xbox Series

[Wraith]

3 hours ago, BubbleButt TV said:

 

I always thought it was pretty lazy to just get rid of a disliked character instead of taking the time to actually re-work and improve them. It's like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Even in an ideal world you can't hold onto everything.

 

[ComeAsYouAre]

In an ideal world 2006 wouldn't have happened and we likely wouldn't be having this conversation

[Dr. Detective]

In an ideal world they'd hurry up and make a Sonic Warriors game already. I'd stop whining about the other characters in the mainline games for another 15 years if I got something like that.

Well... I mean if it was like how the One Piece ones rosters are at least. Preferably only one Sonic being on that roster would be nice.

...Maybe the werehog too.

[Scritch the Cat]

15 hours ago, Wraith said:

The Wisps, Orbot/Cubot and the Deadly Six also have fans and yet it's not considered offensive to shit on them like it is for C Cream and Charmy

Actually, it’s inevitably offensive if you “shit on” something or someone, usually figuratively but maybe literally in the case of some Sonic-related nut jobs like Animated James or Richard Kuta.  So I won’t do either to the wisps, but I will call them out for what they are; an excuse to add more peripheral gameplay mechanics (for whatever you think that’s worth) without having to play as other characters.  In fact, not only do they take over the abilities of other Sonic characters, but even some of Sonic’s own abilities got stripped off and shackled to Wisps.  It also feels very likely that filling Sonic games with power ups was an attempt to appeal more to Mario fans, especially since they were most used on games made to be Nintendo originals initially.  In short, while nothing is innately deplorable about the Wisps, they do make Sonic into something that seems mutually exclusive to what it had ever been before.  While the same accusation can be made of Dreamcast-era Sonic, after the big split that caused in the fanbase you’d think SEGA would be leery of creating any more such splits.

Regarding Orbot and Cubot, they’re okay.  An obvious attempt to incorporate a long-running trope from Sonic cartoons into the games, but as I said earlier, widely-used archetypes aren’t automatically bad.  Unlike the Wisps they don’t really push Sonic’s gameplay in a new direction.  Arguably, they do work better with a more comedic take on Eggman, though, and if they tried to make Eggman menacing again they’d likely need to either remove them or not have them do much.

The Deadly Six, I have no strong opinions on.  I haven’t played Sonic Lost World, or even watched a play through.  I do know enough to get why people are mad that Zavok gets reused a lot as an Eggman lackey, when he hasn’t really got a reason to do that.

[Red Hot Jack]

The Wisps are not characters though, they are power ups with a cute simple design. I do agree they have been overused, literally the most overused thing in the last 10 years, along with Green Hill, so I get the "hate" for them, which isn't even hate actually, it's being sick of them.

I don't even think the few new characters introduced in the last 10 years are more hated than Cream and Big in the 2000s, they have been accepted and are part of the main cast, especially Orbot and Cubot, they don't take much role and screentime, they are just mainstays, I hope they are in Frontiers.

Another thing I liked in the past 10 years, is that SEGA tried new designs, Sonic is not just anthro animals, there shouldn't be just 1 type of design, so we get humans in Unleashed style which I love, robots with geometric forms like Orbot and Cubot, aliens like Wisps, demons like the Zeti. I love variety

In fact for me Deadly Six > Infinite. I know it's unpopular, Infinite has more fans, but to me he is just so generically edgy, I like his design, powers and theme, not his personality. Also, I doubt Infinite will be back. The Deadly Six have more potential if they just explored them... I like they have variety in designs, shapes, are colorful, with crazy powers, I like all of that, they are also meant to be recurring villains which Sonic desperately needs, more than monster of the week that gets forgotten after its game.

That said, I doubt the Deadly Six fit into Frontiers, same for the Wisps. I am ready for new concepts for power-ups, villains, stages, in this game.

[Scritch the Cat]

12 hours ago, Kuzu said:

The reverse is also true btw, if they release a game with Sonic as the only playable character and its still good, it's going to review well no matter what. 

Which goes back to what someone said; whether the characters are around or not, is irrelevant compared to the game just being on its own merits already. 

I think that attitude can be risky if you take it too far.  The extra characters with contested playstyles definitely warranted criticism, but back then the context was that they were taking away from what Sonic HAD been.  Among the actual fanbase, that is what mattered and not what critics thought.  It felt like they would have to make a call as to what segment of the fandom they would make happy, but then they threw in a bunch of curveballs, reinventing Sonic’s mechanics, so nobody truly won.

The thing about saying “So long as the game is good, it doesn’t matter WHAT MAKES IT good” is that it inherently devalues pre-existing fans in favor of everyone else. While Sonic Colors may be a good game, I’m still not quite ready to call it a good Sonic game, because mechanically it’s so shackled to the Wisps and blocky 2D segments, that it’s virtually impossible to play much of it the way you’d play every well-regraded Sonic game made before and after.  But if what matters most is that professional critics like it, then unless the critic reviewing it is a big Sonic fan, the game can get a free pass for doing something completely different from what fans want. If Sonic Colors is so great even despite its dissimilarity to past Sonic games and because of it’s similarity to Mario games, then why not make Sonic into Mario, full-stop? Profits and maximized player bases are arguably part of the same issue.  Why even worry what any older Sonic fans want if the most lucrative use of the license is as an auto-runner with Gacha mechanics?

I hope you understand why that’s a problem.

[StaticMania]

38 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

...that it’s virtually impossible to play much of it the way you’d play every well-regraded Sonic game made before and after.

A game being tied to a gimmick isn't a bad thing.

It's what gives the game its identity.

The Blocky level design could potentially be arguable, it's what makes the game different, but it goes against one of the central mechanic of the game.

[ComeAsYouAre]

The Entire Sonic Franchise is arguably "Mario with a Speed and Spikes gimmick" 

The difference between "Gimmick" and "Mechanic" more or less depends on if you like it or not. 

It's why the Elemental Shields aren't called gimmicks, because people like them

[StaticMania]

18 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

The difference between "Gimmick" and "Mechanic" more or less depends on if you like it or not. 

The Wisps are a gimmick, just like the Werehog, the 3-Man teams, the Classic & Modern Sonic, and the morality based level choice...

It's the marketable identity of a game.

It's like a Level gimmick, it's what makes the level stand out from the others.

[Wraith]

13 hours ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

In an ideal world 2006 wouldn't have happened and we likely wouldn't be having this conversation

I don't think so. Even in franchises that are great we move on from certain ideas, concepts and characters whether they work or not. The Zelda series has an infinitely growing stable of beloved characters that have only ever appeared once because they serve the role they need to in the current work before the series moves onto a new idea that needs to be supported by new characters. A lesser series would make characters like Sheik or Midna recurring but part of Zelda's success is it's restraint.

In a similar vein most of the Sonic characters I actually like are so specific to their game's mechanics or scenario that they're not likely to be seen regularly ever again and I just have to live with that. The rogues are inextricably tied to Riders's series mechanics and that series flamed out harder than the main series did. Tikal and Chaos's story feels so complete that disturbing it feels cheap and Gmerl seems equally content being a babysitter. Even Blaze struggles to find a place outside of Sonic Rush's tight focus on her insecurities. Sure, you could find space for these characters in later games but I'm talking about something a little more substantial than bit parts or cameos. They need to get out of the way to make room for new ideas eventually, and that's okay.

All that being said it seems pretty silly to me to stay laser focused on concepts that are complete failures at what they set out to do when letting go of ones that do work is a necessity for growth in many cases. I'm not sure why the Deadly Six are still around aside from asset reuse and I'm not sure why anyone wants them to be. Their designs are awkward conceptually and executed terribly. Their personalities are bone dry and their dialogue is some of the most generic this series has ever put out and with the Sonic cast being as blissfully cliche as they are that's saying a lot. They need to be redone from scratch, and at that point you might as well just start again with new characters because what's the value of holding onto "Zavok" in name only? It only serves to alienate the people who don't like the character already. Zavok is just an example but you can apply it to any of the franchise's more reviled characters and the point would still mostly hold.

[Dr. Detective]

Its always interesting hearing people talk about getting rid of reviled characters because when you know that they won't you become more aware of the cycle that keeps happening as more and more people who grew up with said characters get older and the flame of hatred settles. 

Like, again, Silver was so hated back in the day that it felt noticeably worse than anything the D6 got. I can't imagine the fanbase loving the D6 like they do Silver now but I can imagine it eventually just fizziling out as time crawls on by. 

I did ultimately land on the side that likes them but it's really only because of the comics. I still get excited by those one on one battle set-up pages in the book and I loved seeing Zavok play marriage counselor with Starline.

Maybe I'm just more optimistic since my mind was changed. After all, the fanbase is notorious for first impressions being tough to shake and if they're given very little reason to change their mind, why would they? 

I like the idea of Sonic trying to get the most out of it's concepts first. Ideally, I'd like them to try. I feel like they could and very easily get away with it too.

Again, that's probably my writer's brain looking at the D6 and just seeing wasted potential rather than a business decision to be made.

[ComeAsYouAre]

There's a difference between letting characters that don't fit anymore retire(Midna) and the conservative Attitude that people advocated for the Sonic Franchise after 2006.  It was so extreme that if applied for any other franchise everyone would call it ridiculous. 

 

Zelda may be conservative about certain things, but not to the degree that people demanded from Sega after that game. 

[Razule]

As weird as it is to think about, the Deadly Six have already been around for nearly ten years (oh my god) and people still haven't come around to them much. Shouldn't that generation of Deadly Six lovers be on the internet by now? Where are they?

[Zoomzeta]

8 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

In an ideal world they'd hurry up and make a Sonic Warriors game already. I'd stop whining about the other characters in the mainline games for another 15 years if I got something like that.

Well... I mean if it was like how the One Piece ones rosters are at least. Preferably only one Sonic being on that roster would be nice.

...Maybe the werehog too.

In a ideal world, they would take the time to make such a game. -_-

[Wraith]

 

8 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

There's a difference between letting characters that don't fit anymore retire(Midna) and the conservative Attitude that people advocated for the Sonic Franchise after 2006.  It was so extreme that if applied for any other franchise everyone would call it ridiculous. 

 

Zelda may be conservative about certain things, but not to the degree that people demanded from Sega after that game. 

I'd argue that in many ways it's more conservative. They caved and gave you guys Shadow eventually but we're still waiting on playable Zelda.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Razule said:

As weird as it is to think about, the Deadly Six have already been around for nearly ten years (oh my god) and people still haven't come around to them much. Shouldn't that generation of Deadly Six lovers be on the internet by now? Where are they?

I've said this before. The Pro-Unleashed backlash only took a few years to surface. If the whole 'cycles' meme people keep pushing was real and the Modern Sonic stories actually were going to have fans regardless of content they would have turned up by now. Sometimes characters are just so bad that nobody likes them.

[azoo]

The Deadly Six are the worst characters the main series has put out, no cap. You could waste time trying to give people a reason to like them, but literally WHY would you do that when you have like sixty other characters that could be a better use of everyone's time.

You could argue "but Silver!!!" but I think the fact that fanon made it's way to the comics and then to the canon was a miracle-bound exception and absolutely not a rule. Thank your lucky stars you got that. And even with that in mind, what does our new and improved Silver do? Exist in a corner, just like many of the other (much better) characters?

Also I know I'm late but I'm not sure how anyone could've missed the train that some people don't like the Adventure games because of the alternate playstyles. Is that why the "Sonic's friends" discourse is so twisted online? Did people just somehow forget? I guess if you're young enough to have missed it at it's peak and deep enough in the fandom, you can kinda glaze past the not-so-shiny parts of the apple, but man..

[Dr. Detective]

8 minutes ago, Razule said:

As weird as it is to think about, the Deadly Six have already been around for nearly ten years (oh my god) and people still haven't come around to them much. Shouldn't that generation of Deadly Six lovers be on the internet by now? Where are they?

Honestly, I don't think they're the kind of characters to get that much of a love mob for them even with good development and time on their side. They're mook villains that, despite the amount of time has gone by, have only really showed up as a collective in one game.

Well, not if you count Runners, a game that no longer exists.

Cameos in the Olympics from two of them or models that don't speak that you can play as in Forces Mobile won't do anything.

And what has Zavok gotten? A fake in Forces and a slot in TSR?

This series doesn't even utilize them that often or that well. It doesn't even feel like it's worth being upset about but they always are.

I want to see what'll happen were this not the case. I'm curious.

[Zoomzeta]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Honestly, I don't think they're the kind of characters to get that much of a love mob for them even with good development and time on their side. They're mook villains that, despite the amount of time has gone by, have only really showed up as a collective in one game.

Well, not if you count Runners, a game that no longer exists.

Cameos in the Olympics from two of them or models that don't speak that you can play as in Forces Mobile won't do anything.

And what has Zavok gotten? A fake in Forces and a slot in TSR?

This series doesn't even utilize them that often or that well. It doesn't even feel like it's worth being upset about but they always are.

I want to see what'll happen were this not the case. I'm curious.

They found better use in the comics, relatively speaking. 

[Wraith]

18 minutes ago, azoo said:

Also I know I'm late but I'm not sure how anyone could've missed the train that some people don't like the Adventure games because of the alternate playstyles. Is that why the "Sonic's friends" discourse is so twisted online? Did people just somehow forget? I guess if you're young enough to have missed it at it's peak and deep enough in the fandom, you can kinda glaze past the not-so-shiny parts of the apple, but man..

"Sonic discourse" now is literally dozens upon dozens of video essays making excuses and covering for every mistake those games made. It's been long enough that young fans would have grown up with that being the only coverage of those games available. I like the Adventure games alright, but there are legitimately people that worked very hard to foster the notion that those games are excellent and it was just a fringe group of biased critics putting them down and it drives me insane.
 

[Raya]

For me, The Dealdy Six just don't fit as a characters to 3D Sonic games. Even in the artstyle, they looks very non-sonic and more like some Cartoon Network or Nickolodeon characters. And the rest of them are also not so special at all, so I don't know why they should become more likeable after years.