Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[Dr. Detective]

47 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Sonic Team really wants to make a character action game over a platformer I guess.

If that's true it must have killed them waiting to do it again after 11 years. 

All those games weren't a part of the last decade. The latest one on that list came out in 2009. It's 2022 now. That's why this all feels so weird to me.

I'm not sure what to make of these little tidbits of info because so much of what I'm hearing is stuff they haven't done in a really long time. Or stuff I wanted but thought they'd never do like make the game open world or hiring Ian Flynn.

At the same time, it would feel off looking back on those old games and assuming it'd be more of that. Partly because, in a lot of ways, that would actually make me happy. Cynical, I know.

It'd be worrisome in a technical sense considering those older games are all of varying technical quality but it's not like that's been my biggest concern with the games from the last decade.

There wasn't much that was technically wrong with Forces compared to those games and yet I still have fonder feelings for all of them aside from 06 (Shadow is a bit of a guilty pleasure).

Despite dismissing him here I do actually like Iizuka. I just can't take anything he or anyone from SEGA says in interviews at face value anymore. 

I don't know what "new combat" means for the Sonic Team of today. The people in charge of the old combat probably don't even work there anymore.

I also would still like to know what he meant when he said he'd like to create a "Legacy Sonic" back during the Wii U exclusivity deal (aka their biggest and most embarrassing mistake) but since both Lost World's system and Boom are dead it doesn't matter anymore.

Everything I've heard so far is just a bunch of vague things that I think I actually want clashing with what I know of the trajectory of Sonic games from the last decade. Those two feelings have cancelled each other out and left me with nothing to latch on to.

The only thing that can summon an opinion from me at this point is either footage or an explaination of what exactly he means. Until I get that, he's said fuck all. 

[Celestia]

13 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

If that's true it must have killed them waiting to do it again after 11 years. 

All those games weren't a part of the last decade. The latest one on that list came out in 2009. It's 2022 now. That's why this all feels so weird to me.

That's exactly why it makes sense to me, at least in a way. It's been long enough since they tried something like that I can understand why it would come to mind again. (After all, how many people who were around in 2008/09 are still around?)

Especially since the mostly normal platformer attempts haven't gone well aside from like, two from over a decade ago.

13 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I also would still like to know what he meant when he said he'd like to create a "Legacy Sonic" back during the Wii U exclusivity deal (aka their biggest and most embarrassing mistake) but since both Lost World's system and Boom are dead it doesn't matter anymore.

I completely forgot about this! I think it came up because of Boom (and maybe the movie too)? IIRC I just chalked it up to him talking about "Modern Sonic" since that kind of makes sense in that context, a new Sonic was on the horizon after all...

[Kuzu]

It just confuses me how a series that was literally founded on its movement and environment manipulation, is actively doing everything in its power to move away from that into just a beat'em up.

My only thoughts are just "why?????" I can understand creators wanting to branch out as to not burn themselves out, but the creators of this series have never even shown even the slightest hint of interest in bridging the gap from the older games and would rather just do anything but that.

And this is in a post-Sonic Mania world!!! Like after the reception that game got and how highly praised it was, the fact they have expressed absolutely no interest in expanding on that is just baffling to me.

 

Mario and Zelda do their best at bridging concepts from their original games to their current ones, Sonic feels like they simply refuse to do that, and I can't tell if its simply out of stubbornness or just a simple lack of interest.

I know that Sonic's classic games aren't very popular in Japan, but Jesus Christ.

[ZinogreVolt]

Somehow Black Knight completely slipped my mind when it comes to discussion of combat in Sonic games. Yeah, that game had pretty rancid combat outside of boss battles, which were fun, if very very easy. The main issue with Black Knight's combat was how stop-and-go it was and the pointless amounts of lag and latency on most actions, to a point where it's faster to just jump over everything in your way. The only one who felt kinda alright to use was Sonic because of that aerial spin attack where he barreled through enemies. I feel like a framework for satisfying combat that's also something that compliments baseline philosophies does exist (maybe Mega Man Zero?), but whether Sonic Team can achieve that when they're trying so many different things at once for this game is another thing entirely.

Edited January 28, 2022 by ZinogreVolt
typo

[Rabbitearsblog]

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

It just confuses me how a series that was literally founded on its movement and environment manipulation, is actively doing everything in its power to move away from that into just a beat'em up.

My only thoughts are just "why?????" I can understand creators wanting to branch out as to not burn themselves out, but the creators of this series have never even shown even the slightest hint of interest in bridging the gap from the older games and would rather just do anything but that.

And this is in a post-Sonic Mania world!!! Like after the reception that game got and how highly praised it was, the fact they have expressed absolutely no interest in expanding on that is just baffling to me.

 

Mario and Zelda do their best at bridging concepts from their original games to their current ones, Sonic feels like they simply refuse to do that, and I can't tell if its simply out of stubbornness or just a simple lack of interest.

I know that Sonic's classic games aren't very popular in Japan, but Jesus Christ.

Maybe most of the people at SEGA would rather do action games like Yakuza and Persona, then do platforming games like they did in the 90s.

[light-gaia]

9 hours ago, KHCast said:

Is this necessary? Like at all? I don’t think anyone here is being unreasonable in their skepticism. With a series this inconsistent in quality, getting this defensive when not everyone takes statements like “combat style” with optimism, is honestly weird. Maybe it will be fine, in which case, great. But atm, simply based off track record, and who were dealing with, until actual gameplay further extrapolates on the information they’ve been releasing, skepticism/cynicism is valid 

People have their right to be skeptical, however, I don't think it's rational to complain about every single thing Iizuka is saying. If Sonic Team wants to develop a better foundation for 3D Sonic, they will need to take risks and change a lot of things. Sonic's combat is flawed in the core modern 3D gameplay, period, they will have to change that. Sonic's recent 3D games are too short, they will have to change that, too, among others.

Complaining about that it's like complaining that the series is bad, but also complaining about trying to change that. It doesn't make sense.

Sonic Team needs to abandon traditions and conventions if they want to improve the series going forward. They could fail pretty badly, but it's also the only way they have a chance to succeed. If they stick with traditions, we will have another Forces.

42 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

It just confuses me how a series that was literally founded on its movement and environment manipulation, is actively doing everything in its power to move away from that into just a beat'em up.

My only thoughts are just "why?????" I can understand creators wanting to branch out as to not burn themselves out, but the creators of this series have never even shown even the slightest hint of interest in bridging the gap from the older games and would rather just do anything but that.

And this is in a post-Sonic Mania world!!! Like after the reception that game got and how highly praised it was, the fact they have expressed absolutely no interest in expanding on that is just baffling to me.

 

Mario and Zelda do their best at bridging concepts from their original games to their current ones, Sonic feels like they simply refuse to do that, and I can't tell if its simply out of stubbornness or just a simple lack of interest.

I know that Sonic's classic games aren't very popular in Japan, but Jesus Christ.

He's never said the game is going to be a beat'em up.

[Red Hot Jack]

I mean it's not surprising that ST tries to do something different like a combat system and open world. They try new gimmicks in every game to add a twist or something. Why is it shocking now?

Whether it fits into Sonic... that depends on what kind of system it is, how it works, which we have no idea. I for one hated the repetitive homing attack chains in Sonic 06, hopefully it's better than that and more varied but still simple and fast.

For the record, I will also be okay to just have a "good game" regardless of what's in it.

[ZinogreVolt]

15 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

People have their right to be skeptical, however, I don't think it's rational to complain about every single thing Iizuka is saying. If Sonic Team wants to develop a better foundation for 3D Sonic, they will need to take risks and change a lot of things. Sonic's combat is flawed in the core modern 3D gameplay, period, they will have to change that. Sonic's recent 3D games are too short, they will have to change that, too, among others.

Complaining about that it's like complaining that the series is bad, but also complaining about trying to change that. It doesn't make sense.

Sonic Team needs to abandon traditions and conventions if they want to improve the series going forward. They could fail pretty badly, but it's also the only way they have a chance to succeed. If they stick with traditions, we will have another Forces.

He's never said the game is going to be a beat'em up.

They had both Boost formula and the speed stage Adventure formula, both of which were well-liked gameplay wise. We know what makes Sonic click in 3D already, but Sega not embracing that and building upon it is kind of the problem. Forces took a well-liked gameplay style and screwed it up, but that's got to do more with botched execution rather than because they stubbornly clung to the past. Frontiers can't really be judged all that much aside from vague concerns or guesswork, and I hope this new style will be good, but I don't think looking to the past for answers on how they might stick the landing is a bad thing in of itself.

[light-gaia]

25 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

They had both Boost formula and the speed stage Adventure formula, both of which were well-liked gameplay wise. We know what makes Sonic click in 3D already, but Sega not embracing that and building upon it is kind of the problem. Forces took a well-liked gameplay style and screwed it up, but that's got to do more with botched execution rather than because they stubbornly clung to the past. Frontiers can't really be judged all that much aside from vague concerns or guesswork, and I hope this new style will be good, but I don't think looking to the past for answers on how they might stick the landing is a bad thing in of itself.

Both formulas have theirs flaws. In the boost formula, for example, the games are too short, the combat is too shallow and automated. Boost gameplay isn't even actually 3D because 70% of the games are 2D, and the 3D sections are only corridor. In both formulas, multiple playable characters haven't worked because they had to develop different gameplays for every character. Etc, etc.

Both formulas worked for their respective times, but now the series needs to evolve. If Nintendo had the same mindset as that, Zelda Breath of the Wild would never happen and become the biggest-selling Zelda game of all time because the old Zelda formula was "just fine".

It's time to evolve.

[ZinogreVolt]

26 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

Both formulas have theirs flaws. In the boost formula, for example, the games are too short, the combat is too shallow and automated. Boost gameplay isn't even actually 3D because 70% of the games are 2D, and the 3D sections are only corridor. In both formulas, multiple playable characters haven't worked because they had to develop different gameplays for every character. Etc, etc.

Both formulas worked for their respective times, but now the series needs to evolve. If Nintendo had the same mindset as that, Zelda Breath of the Wild would never happen and become the biggest-selling Zelda game of all time because the old Zelda formula was "just fine".

It's time to evolve.

Wind Waker and Zelda 1 (especially Zelda 1) were specifically cited as the foundations for the ways in which Zelda had evolved with Breath of the Wild. The developers didn't just throw out the series conventions all willy-nilly when it came to Breath of the Wild, just about every change was made with lots of consideration and testing in order to ensure that the changes were for the better, and not just because they wanted to. Breath of the Wild is a radical departure from past 3D Zeldas, but it ends up conveying much of the same spirit of even the earliest Zeldas because of what the devs wanted to prioritize and communicate with each change. Whether that will be the case with Frontiers remains to be seen, but there's nothing wrong with using the past as a reference for building such a new framework.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, light-gaia said:

 

He's never said the game is going to be a beat'em up.

You're missing the point. 

[Razule]

I've accepted Sonic Team's not going to be making a 3D platformer that takes cues from the classics anytime soon. They tried in Adventure, and now either they can't do it, or they won't. Or it's just impossible. In Sonic, I'd much rather attacking enemies be an extension of the platforming than a thing I have to stop and button mash for. I'd like to just relax and say, "Hey, other games like this are cool, so a Sonic version of this will be just as great", but I don't have any where near that amount of confidence in Sonic Team.

[Dr. Detective]

17 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You're missing the point. 

I do think saying "it's actively doing everything in its power to move away from that into just a beat'em up" is a bit too specific an assumption though.

Even if they were doing that previously (which can also be debated, honestly) they haven't for the last 11 years and literally all we have to go on for this new game is Iizuka saying the words "new combat" which currently, to me, doesn't mean anything because it's not substantiated by anything.

I have no clear picture of what he means. Does he mean a combat system or is he talking about sticking some punches and kicks at the end of a homing attack again?

Honestly, them refining the boost formula from Unleashed to Generations and then throwing it out in favor of reinventing the wheel with Lost World feels more like they've been doing nothing but harping over Sonic's movement. 

And Forces was just a game that didn't really care about any of what it was doing, Modern or Classic. It just threw some shit in a blender and served it to us because a game needed to be made, I guess.

Their trajectory is so wild and strange. 

[Zoomzeta]

Just as wild as the comments that can't wrap their minds over a open-world platformer that would have necessitated combat in some shape by default. 

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I do think saying "it's actively doing everything in its power to move away from that into just a beat'em up" is a bit too specific an assumption though.

Even if they were doing that previously (which can also be debated, honestly) they haven't for the last 11 years and literally all we have to go on for this new game is Iizuka saying the words "new combat" which currently, to me, doesn't mean anything because it's not substantiated by anything.

I have no clear picture of what he means. Does he mean a combat system or is he talking about sticking some punches and kicks at the end of a homing attack again?

Honestly, them refining the boost formula from Unleashed to Generations and then throwing it out in favor of reinventing the wheel with Lost World feels more like they've been doing nothing but harping over Sonic's movement. 

And Forces was just a game that didn't really care about any of what it was doing, Modern or Classic. It just threw some shit in a blender and served it to us because a game needed to be made, I guess.

Their trajectory is so wild and strange. 

Sonic has been chasing trends and throwing in questionable video game mechanics for over 20 years now. Even if they haven't really gone as crazy as they have gone before in thr last couple of years, the fact remains that they have not focused on the core fundamentals that serve as the foundation for this series.

Given their track record, there's no reason to assume that they're just suddenly going to do that now as nothing in that interview serves to address the core issues these games have faced for two decades.

I'm trying really hard to not be a negative Nancy about this, but after 20 years of continously dropping the ball on building on the foundations of this series, how am I supposed to feel? 

There's simply no reason to feel confident in this series at the moment based on what we know. And sure, we still don't have any actual footage and I'm mindful of that, but there's nothing shown so far that makes me think they really understand these issues, and are just more focused on showing off their new toy and gimmick.

 

That is not saying the game is going to be bad, as it could absolutely be good. But being good is not the same as actually addressing the issues these games have had.

[Dr. Detective]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

Sonic has been chasing trends and throwing in questionable video game mechanics for over 20 years now. Even if they haven't really gone as crazy as they have gone before in thr last couple of years, the fact remains that they have not focused on the core fundamentals that serve as the foundation for this series.

Given their track record, there's no reason to assume that they're just suddenly going to do that now as nothing in that interview serves to address the core issues these games have faced for two decades.

I'm trying really hard to not be a negative Nancy about this, but after 20 years of continously dropping the ball on building on the foundations of this series, how am I supposed to feel? 

There's simply no reason to feel confident in this series at the moment based on what we know. And sure, we still don't have any actual footage and I'm mindful of that, but there's nothing shown so far that makes me think they really understand these issues, and are just more focused on showing off their new toy and gimmick.

 

That is not saying the game is going to be bad, as it could absolutely be good. But being good is not the same as actually addressing the issues these games have had.

This isn't really a response to what I said but yeah. 

As for me, like I've said about three times now, their trajectory is too wild and strange to me. I don't feel comfortable making any calls on what they're doing or how until I see something. This is my personal defense mechanism to make sure I'm not made a fool of again.

There's a lot I'm hearing about this game that doesn't line up with the track we were on before. That coupled with the almost zero info we have leaves me without much choice but to wait for something to latch on to so I can finally know what to think about this game.

I don't really care about questionjng whether or not it's okay to trust their judgement. That's up to the individual. I just want to acknowledge that there's very little to be confident about or sure of when it comes to what it is they're doing.

I just don't know what to think or feel right now. Too many of these factors don't line up properly. I wish I knew more so I could better see how they went from Forces to whatever Frontiers is going to actually be... and even then, they're so weird I'll probably still not get it.

[KHCast]

4 hours ago, light-gaia said:

however, I don't think it's rational to complain about every single thing Iizuka is saying

Good thing no one here did that

 

4 hours ago, light-gaia said:

If Sonic Team wants to develop a better foundation for 3D Sonic, they will need to take risks and change a lot of things.

Cool. And people aren’t obligated to give them optimism. It’s called earning people trust. They don’t just automatically get it because “we’re trying, and doing new stuff.”

 

4 hours ago, light-gaia said:

Sonic's recent 3D games are too short, they will have to change that, too,

The game length was literally one of the last issues with the series I’d have been addressing. Especially when games like the classics, colors and generations were and still are so praised and replayed 

 

4 hours ago, light-gaia said:

Complaining about that it's like complaining that the series is bad, but also complaining about trying to change that.

 No it’s not. 

 

4 hours ago, light-gaia said:

Sonic Team needs to abandon traditions and conventions if they want to improve the series going forward. They could fail pretty badly, but it's also the only way they have a chance to succeed. If they stick with traditions, we will have another Forces.

They really don’t need to as the issues weren’t the fundamentals the franchise were built on. Game franchises like Zelda had more or less perfected their formula and wanted to change things up, and could because they had a tried and true formula they could fall back on or continue if it proved too divisive. Sonic doesn’t really have that, so this more or less just once again just ends up feeling like another “change up” to Sonic that doesn’t bode anything but skepticism/cynicism, since the franchise is marred in mixed quality releases

[Red Hot Jack]

9 hours ago, Razule said:

I've accepted Sonic Team's not going to be making a 3D platformer that takes cues from the classics anytime soon. They tried in Adventure, and now either they can't do it, or they won't. Or it's just impossible. In Sonic, I'd much rather attacking enemies be an extension of the platforming than a thing I have to stop and button mash for. I'd like to just relax and say, "Hey, other games like this are cool, so a Sonic version of this will be just as great", but I don't have any where near that amount of confidence in Sonic Team.

I think ST just separates the spheres of "2D/Classic game" and "3D/Modern Sonic", they are just different from them, whether we like it or not this is their idea of separate Sonics.

Like... if they want to do another Classic game, it'll be 2D, which I hope they won't at this point... because it's clear they suck at doing Classic Sonic, unless Whitehead is involved which he isn't.

3D Sonic has its own evolution IMO, boost instead of spin dash, other moves like stomp, it's own design. The closest thing we got to a 3D platformer with classic elements is Lost World, that was it and people did not like it because it was nostalgia heavy AGAIN, un-Sonicy and more like Mario, simple and generic all around. For the record, I don't mind Lost World.

They tried doing 3D Sonic with classic elements, people didn't like it, but in general for me? I feel like they should pursue what they want to do, what they like, their own thing, because if they aren't putting their own passion into a project, the result will likely suck.

[BubbleButt TV]

1 hour ago, Red Hot Jack said:

3D Sonic has its own evolution IMO, boost instead of spin dash, other moves like stomp, it's own design. The closest thing we got to a 3D platformer with classic elements is Lost World, that was it and people did not like it because it was nostalgia heavy AGAIN, un-Sonicy and more like Mario, simple and generic all around. For the record, I don't mind Lost World.

They tried doing 3D Sonic with classic elements, people didn't like it, but in general for me? I feel like they should pursue what they want to do, what they like, their own thing, because if they aren't putting their own passion into a project, the result will likely suck.

describing Lost World as "3D with classic elements" is funny to me because the "classic elements" in that game feel so superficial and paper-thin

but I think you are right that Sonic Team should be left to do whatever they wanna do. The only time you'll ever see 3D spindash and rolling physics again is when a new director comes along with a bold creative vision like Yoshihisa Hashimoto had with Unleashed.

I find it kinda sad that Sonic Team consider the boost to be an evolution of Sonic's gameplay

in a lot of ways it twisted how people view Sonic's speed and set a very unrealistic standard of how fast Sonic actually needs to be. I don't think it's sustainable to keep designing games like this in the long run

[StaticMania]

Yes, that's quite obvious...the shortening length of levels in subsequent games is proof enough that they understood this.

Now they gave up.

[BubbleButt TV]

anyways in other news Reddit user u/Dr_Meme_Man noticed that there are little collectable coins on the radio tower 

don't think I seen anyone mention this before

[light-gaia]

11 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Sonic has been chasing trends and throwing in questionable video game mechanics for over 20 years now. Even if they haven't really gone as crazy as they have gone before in thr last couple of years, the fact remains that they have not focused on the core fundamentals that serve as the foundation for this series.

Given their track record, there's no reason to assume that they're just suddenly going to do that now as nothing in that interview serves to address the core issues these games have faced for two decades.

I'm trying really hard to not be a negative Nancy about this, but after 20 years of continously dropping the ball on building on the foundations of this series, how am I supposed to feel? 

There's simply no reason to feel confident in this series at the moment based on what we know. And sure, we still don't have any actual footage and I'm mindful of that, but there's nothing shown so far that makes me think they really understand these issues, and are just more focused on showing off their new toy and gimmick.

 

That is not saying the game is going to be bad, as it could absolutely be good. But being good is not the same as actually addressing the issues these games have had.

Iizuka hasn't even describe how the gameplay is going to be. Everything he said is vague and the only thing we can assume is that the game is going to be different from previous entries, and it'll have a different combat style. Having a different combat style doesn't mean the game is going to be a beat'em up. Kirby games have combat styles, are they beat'em up or hack's slash games? No.

Platformers should have a balance between combat, exploration and good level design.

Complaining about that is being blindly pessimistic. As someone said before, he could say "we are developing a video game", and people would still be mad and complaining about that.

10 hours ago, KHCast said:

Good thing no one here did that

 

Cool. And people aren’t obligated to give them optimism. It’s called earning people trust. They don’t just automatically get it because “we’re trying, and doing new stuff.”

 

The game length was literally one of the last issues with the series I’d have been addressing. Especially when games like the classics, colors and generations were and still are so praised and replayed 

 

 No it’s not. 

 

They really don’t need to as the issues weren’t the fundamentals the franchise were built on. Game franchises like Zelda had more or less perfected their formula and wanted to change things up, and could because they had a tried and true formula they could fall back on or continue if it proved too divisive. Sonic doesn’t really have that, so this more or less just once again just ends up feeling like another “change up” to Sonic that doesn’t bode anything but skepticism/cynicism, since the franchise is marred in mixed quality releases

Complaining about vague things he said it's just being blindly pessimistic. They haven't show any gameplay yet, and everything he said is vague.

The length of the games are a serious issue, specially in this new generation that the games have even more content.

Zelda's traditional formula wasn't perfect at all, specially the 3D games. All of them have some kind of issue in the overworld exploration, the begining of most of the games are painfully slow. Just to name a few.

Sonic Generations was a good game, but the boost formula is outdated. It's just a fact. Nowadays people want the games to be more open, to have more freedom, and more content. None of the boost games have that.

[Diogenes]

20 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

Kirby games have combat styles, are they beat'em up or hack's slash games? No.

Actually yeah, kinda.

[KHCast]

26 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

Complaining about vague things he said it's just being blindly pessimistic. They haven't show any gameplay yet, and everything he said is vague.

Sounds like you’re telling people they aren’t valid in their skepticism. Not a good look when you’re pulling the generic sonic fan “wait and see” responses 

 

26 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

The length of the games are a serious issue, specially in this new generation that the games have even more content.

Zelda's traditional formula wasn't perfect at all, specially the 3D games. All of them have some kind of issue in the overworld exploration, the begining of most of the games are painfully slow. Just to name a few.

Sonic Generations was a good game, but the boost formula is outdated. It's just a fact. Nowadays people want the games to be more open, to have more freedom, and more content. None of the boost games have that.

This all sounds like a personal bias thing, since 1. Most people were fine with Sonic games being short as long as they’re good and replayable. Again, see Generations 2. Zelda has been critically acclaimed in almost all its entries by both fans and critics, you’re legit fooling yourself if you think the occasional critiques eclipse that fact. And 3. Not everyone wants big massive open games.

 

You keep using “outdated” but I don’t think you actually know what is and isn’t considered by gamers or developers to be “outdated”. 
 

Quote

Complaining about that is being blindly pessimistic. As someone said before, he could say "we are developing a video game", and people would still be mad and complaining about that.

Being smug and acting above others doesn’t really make your take look any better, much like the other person. 

[light-gaia]

14 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Sounds like you’re telling people they aren’t valid in their skepticism. Not a good look when you’re pulling the generic sonic fan “wait and see” responses 

The most rational attitude is wait and see. Jumping to conclusions about the game being bad or being a masterpiece are both irrational.

15 minutes ago, KHCast said:

This all sounds like a personal bias thing, since 1. Most people were fine with Sonic games being short as long as they’re good and replayable. Again, see Generations 2. Zelda has been critically acclaimed in almost all its entries by both fans and critics, you’re legit fooling yourself if you think the occasional critiques eclipse that fact. And 3. Not everyone wants big massive open games.

 

You keep using “outdated” but I don’t think you actually know what is and isn’t considered by gamers or developers to be “outdated”. 

Nah, I'm a huge Zelda fan and I played every single 3D entry, they are not perfect. No even Zelda Breath of the Wild is. The critics always puts Zelda in a pedestal and don't mention the games's flaws. You are acting like saying a game has flaws is the same thing as saying they are bad. I've never said that.

About no one complaining about the length of Sonic games. This is not true. Just search for on the YouTube and you'll see a lot of people complaining about that. Furthermore, Sega isn't trying to please only hardcore fans, they want the games to appeal to the general audience, and the general audience wants more content.

27 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Actually yeah, kinda.

But it's not a God of War or Bayonetta, the combat is still really simple, and don't affect the flow of the gameplay. The combat isn't the focus.