Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[Zoomzeta]

Well, I'm just going to throw my hat into the ring. None of these formulas are going to be rigidly followed in this game.

If this game is leaning into being akin to Breath of the Wild, speaking as someone who recently played it, I can deduce certain aspects that they may follow.

One, the whole world will operate as a sandbox experience, with Sonic using everything in his environment to help in whatever obstacles that he will face.

Two, the game may be approached in a non-linear matter, players are encouraged to explore with very little info on the map.

Three, they will pour as much of Sonic's moveset from all over the franchise as much as possible plus more, which will be used not just for combat, but also for traversal and puzzle solving. How that will shape is up in the air.

And that's my view on the matter. Everything I said is subject to changes and interpretation, and it may not necessarily go the way I thing. But that's were my conversation with this game ends until the next trailer comes. Goodbye everybody!

 

[Wraith]

6 hours ago, light-gaia said:

PSO2 and FFXIV are MMOs, they need to be grindy. Sonic Frontiers is a single player game.

 

3 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Single-player games don't typically have microtransactions. There are more common for free to play and multiplayer games that have to deal with server costs

Have yall played an open world game released in the past 5 years

[KHCast]

7 hours ago, light-gaia said:

You should also consider that Mania is a classic-style game, so it has the amount of content expected for a Genesis game, not a modern game released in 2022.

Your idea of what a “modern game released in 2022” is and has to have in it to be successful or liked is weird. If anything, it should be telling that a “dated genesis game” got more buzz and hype than a lot of AAA titles have gotten even, and became one of segas best selling sonic games right? If it did well for a “retro indie level budget title” released in modern age, that should indicate that the expectations for games in our modern age aren’t as limited and “ambitious” as you seem to infer

[Kazhnuz]

I feel that things aren't that black or white. I don't think that any direction is "needed" in itself, but I'm not sure how Mania says that the expectation aren't that way for a non-negligeable part of the population. Mania did well, but there is the question of if having a larger-scale game isn't interesting for them, to target a potentially larger public.

Anecdotal evidence incoming, but there is a lot of fans asking for "ambition and passion" (to the point it's nearly an overused meme), and thus we can wonder how much it's an actual thing in the larger buyer base of Sonic games. It's where we're going to have the 80/20/5 issue : we don't really know the opinion of a large part of the people who buy the Sonic games, and we often tends to act as if we represent them (a bit like did an infamous facebook page for a long time). This is the part where I feel we would need some datas, and some methodology.

But something I'm pretty sure of is that there is no "needed direction" for Sonic. Now, as I said, I don't mind this one, and I'm interested in how they'll handle this game. It's just that I'm not sure that questioning if it was needed or not is a good question, as it's just one of the direction they could have went on. But I'm not sure that we can use Mania to say that a bigger game wasn't needed for a big part of the first game (and I would say that I personally actively want all the big AAA games/movies to downsize a lot in term of ambition and scope, so honestly I wouldn't mind if every Sonic games keep being small scale... And I hope that Frontiers won't be TOO large).

 

 

Re: microtransaction, I'm not sure that we're more in danger of microtransaction than we would be with a linear 3D boost/adventure game, honestly. And I'm more worried about shitty DLC (hello Super Sonic DLC) than microtransaction for this game, as for what I've seen, SEGA did more of the first than the last for their big solo games.

Now, Sonic is a special IP inside SEGA, and a big cash source, so there might be incentive to do that, so I won't say that it's impossible or anything.

[Coz483]

This game is probably gonna be bad anyway... Or well be called bad by fans. At this point I feel like a decent portion of this fanbase hasn't considered sonic to be truly good since sa2, and everything after has been bad or mediocre. 
I have little hope in Sonic anymore, but do want this game to be good. I think I  should just wait, I mean I already skipped Forces due to seeing the cutscenes, I can wait till christmas.

[Red Hot Jack]

9 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

Mmh, I'm not sure that Frontiers will be protected from being grindy just because it's single player. SP games have nothing that inherently protect them from grind. Grind will really depends of how the game designer things... Sonic games had a tad of grind with stuff like Lost World, so I think it's a big possibility that we have some grinding to pad out the game, especially if there is a skill tree. It might not be too bad tho, if we gain level fast enough. A lot of that will depends more of their game design vision.

What I hope is that they won't make the game design mistake of locking in the skill tree some capacities that are needed to travel. There not that much chances I think (I feel more they'll do something like "one power from each saved character"), but in every game it's the thing I dread to see XD

 

Microtransaction, i'm crossing my finger we won't have that and that they have learned from the Super Sonic fiasco from Forces. That's not my main concern tho, for the moment.

Not worried about mtx... those get loads of shit all the time, they would be very stupid to include something like that.

I think single player's "progression" and "grinding" are 2 different things... grinding focuses on accumulating points or something to unlock new areas, meanwhile progression requires clearing stages (in this case maybe cyberspace levels and getting the emeralds?) to unlock boss fights and then new areas.

I honestly wouldn't mind story progression and single player progression because just wandering around an open world... is cool but I want progression in the game as well as freedom.

For example the idea of multiple islands as "open zones" (giant hubworlds or small open worlds) that you unlock throughout the game would be a cool thing.

Something like Bowser's Fury and its islands.

[Johnster4]

Honestly, a decent game length for Sonic Frontiers would be 8-10 hours for the main game and 15 to 100% the game at a $60 price tag 

10 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I'm at a point where I honestly just want a Sonic game with fresh mechanics over a compelling story, narrative or an abundance of characters. The latter I can get in formats like the IDW comics, but the former I'm only going to get in the games. Sonic needs to start taking advantage of the different mediums it has to start satisfying it's 30 year fanbase. 

How much would a Sonic game cost with an idea like that? If Sonic Frontiers launches for $60-$70 and they went with an idea like that, it would be rightfully called out as an awful idea because what you have described is stripping out content that should be in the game and resold to us as a separate piece of content outside the game.

[Diogenes]

46 minutes ago, Johnster4 said:

How much would a Sonic game cost with an idea like that? If Sonic Frontiers launches for $60-$70 and they went with an idea like that, it would be rightfully called out as an awful idea because what you have described is stripping out content that should be in the game and resold to us as a separate piece of content outside the game.

Or it could just be a good game that doesn't have a big focus on the story. That's an entirely valid option.

[light-gaia]

7 hours ago, KHCast said:

Your idea of what a “modern game released in 2022” is and has to have in it to be successful or liked is weird. If anything, it should be telling that a “dated genesis game” got more buzz and hype than a lot of AAA titles have gotten even, and became one of segas best selling sonic games right? If it did well for a “retro indie level budget title” released in modern age, that should indicate that the expectations for games in our modern age aren’t as limited and “ambitious” as you seem to infer

I've never said a game needs to be triple A to be successful, I said there are different expectations for a low budget game that cost $20, and a full price 3D game that cost $60 to $70. And Sonic Mania is one of the best selling Sonic games in recent years, it's not one of the biggest selling Sonic games of all time.

[Kuzu]

Nintendo literally just released Metroid Dread, an entirely 2D game, at full retail price and its now one of the best selling games in that entire franchise. Some of y'all need to actually start playing other video games instead of watching Youtube essays about them. 

[Kazhnuz]

9 hours ago, Red Hot Jack said:

For example the idea of multiple islands as "open zones" (giant hubworlds or small open worlds) that you unlock throughout the game would be a cool thing.

Something like Bowser's Fury and its islands.

Yep, I think it could be kinda a good way to handle the level design.

I feel it might be possible that they go in this direction with the "explore four island" thingy that we can see in another potential leak.

 

I've looked back a bit on the "initial leak" (which might not represent the final way of handling the game) to think a bit more about how could works the progression, and it seems that according to the first leak "completing puzzles, plateform challenged and beating regular ennemies" will grant XP, while beating up bosses will get the orbs. Doesn't really says if we'll get what I hope not ("travel action trapped as skill-tree skill"), but I feel it's kinda interesting that XP might not just come from fighting ennemies.

Now I suppose that I'll have to go on wait and see on that one, to see how fast we'll advance on the XP tree. I suppose here the two big incentives ("making the game longer to please those asking for that" and "Sonic is meant to be fast") will fight a bit each other to create the actual experience, so maybe wait and see.

 

Something that could be interesting if like some leaks seems to suggest we have several super form battle. I feel that if it's true, it might be kinda awkward from a story perspective (I'm not sure how easy it'll be to explain why we have to collect the emerald again if we have too), but it might be interesting game-design wise, to avoid the game design issues there can be in making a gameplay only for a final boss (I'm not saying for the record that the older game were bad to do that, just that there is some implication in making a GD only for a final boss).

Another of my big question is still how the life will be handled, especially if they want to have different "strenght" of ennemies. Something surprising is that if it was something that changed a lot, leaks might have talked about it, was it would kinda be the elephant of the room. Or maybe it'll simply be the "we don't loose all our rings when hit", and some attacks will make us loose different numbers of rings.

That's one part I'm really curious about, because that's something I wondered myself when I thought about the subject xD

[phobs]

33 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

Something that could be interesting if like some leaks seems to suggest we have several super form battle. I feel that if it's true, it might be kinda awkward from a story perspective (I'm not sure how easy it'll be to explain why we have to collect the emerald again if we have too), but it might be interesting game-design wise, to avoid the game design issues there can be in making a gameplay only for a final boss (I'm not saying for the record that the older game were bad to do that, just that there is some implication in making a GD only for a final boss).

I have theory about that. Confirmed leaks said that chaos emeralds are obtained through cyberspace levels. Boss fights seem to take place in some sort of cyber environment as well. What if these chaos emeralds are not real but cyber instead? As the result, these cyber emeralds can be used only in boss fights for corresponding area.

[Kazhnuz]

That's a pretty interesting theory, I didn't thought about that possibility. It might be a way to make the narrative parts of the game design works better.

 

( And about the CE, I still wonder if this game have anything to do with Flynn's "I know things but can't talk about it" after someone asked the question "who created the Chaos Emeralds" during a Bumblekast xD )

[light-gaia]

8 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Nintendo literally just released Metroid Dread, an entirely 2D game, at full retail price and its now one of the best selling games in that entire franchise. Some of y'all need to actually start playing other video games instead of watching Youtube essays about them. 

Metroid Dread's gameplay is 2D, but the game is fully rendered in 3D, and it's not low budget at all. It doesn't make any sense to compare with Sonic Mania. Sonic Mania occupies less than 200mb of disk space, Metroid Dread occupies 4.1gb.

If you are happy with Sonic games being only 2D, and with a length of only 2 hours. Ok, just be happy. I don't see the point of being mad about people wanting longer triple A Sonic games.

[StaticMania]

Length = Length...

Not the amount of money that goes into the game surprisingly.

[Natie]

This whole conversation's just got me repeating the old adage 

[Kazhnuz]

3 hours ago, Natie said:

This whole conversation's just got me repeating the old adage 

(snipped image)

But no, devs love being overworked and choose themselves to crunch, I've heard TrueGamer666 said that on reddit, so it must be true. ( I love this image )

 

I feel that something important about the lenght of videogame is that it's like everything else, a game design tool. One more complex than some other, as it involve more work and/or taking shortcuts (which isn't bad : i'm honestly not 100% against having a bit of repetitiveness in a game, reused asset or some shortcut taken as long as it's not "too much")

A longer or smaller game is part of what experience we want to give, what we want people to feel, and how we want our game to be replayed. ( There is also a question of what scale we are talking about, as we talked about game lenght without much numbers xD )

[Red Hot Jack]

14 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

Yep, I think it could be kinda a good way to handle the level design.

I feel it might be possible that they go in this direction with the "explore four island" thingy that we can see in another potential leak.

 

I've looked back a bit on the "initial leak" (which might not represent the final way of handling the game) to think a bit more about how could works the progression, and it seems that according to the first leak "completing puzzles, plateform challenged and beating regular ennemies" will grant XP, while beating up bosses will get the orbs. Doesn't really says if we'll get what I hope not ("travel action trapped as skill-tree skill"), but I feel it's kinda interesting that XP might not just come from fighting ennemies.

Now I suppose that I'll have to go on wait and see on that one, to see how fast we'll advance on the XP tree. I suppose here the two big incentives ("making the game longer to please those asking for that" and "Sonic is meant to be fast") will fight a bit each other to create the actual experience, so maybe wait and see.

 

Something that could be interesting if like some leaks seems to suggest we have several super form battle. I feel that if it's true, it might be kinda awkward from a story perspective (I'm not sure how easy it'll be to explain why we have to collect the emerald again if we have too), but it might be interesting game-design wise, to avoid the game design issues there can be in making a gameplay only for a final boss (I'm not saying for the record that the older game were bad to do that, just that there is some implication in making a GD only for a final boss).

Another of my big question is still how the life will be handled, especially if they want to have different "strenght" of ennemies. Something surprising is that if it was something that changed a lot, leaks might have talked about it, was it would kinda be the elephant of the room. Or maybe it'll simply be the "we don't loose all our rings when hit", and some attacks will make us loose different numbers of rings.

That's one part I'm really curious about, because that's something I wondered myself when I thought about the subject xD

Yep about life and rings, I also immediately thought of the same thing, you lose 10/20 rings per hit. Would make sense and it happened in some games, I think Shadow? Because enemies were tough (they also were in Sonic Heroes but in a more simple way).

I would love progression, it doesn't take away from open world, I'm seeing this in Legends Arceus too, you unlock new areas later through the game.

Maybe have Sonic/player choose the next island, or you have 2 islands unlocked to play and you can choose what to play first... freedom but also progression. They have done that in Colors and Generations as well. But it also depends on how many islands exactly we are getting. Money is on 4 or 7 depending how big the game is or how big these zones are...

Super Sonic and boss battles: it's a unique thing for sure, can't say yet what to expect, I'm assuming you fight the titans so you need more power and Super Sonic is necessary. The leak also mentioned Super Sonic boss fight where you climb the titan. 

Btw, I'm pretty sure the original leaks featured the first island only, would make sense: ghost girl (Amy is the first ghost friend to rescue in the game, maybe), first stage, start of skill tree, Super Sonic boss (which happens at the end of completion of each island).

We originally thought Super Sonic fight was the final boss, but it may be for every boss as other leaks mentioned. Waaaait, what if each island has 7 stages and you need to collect the emeralds in EACH island? To unlock Super Sonic for the boss, and repeat 4 times (if there are 4 islands). It would feel repetitive as fuck but still new and also different from other games.

 

[Kuzu]

10 hours ago, light-gaia said:

Metroid Dread's gameplay is 2D, but the game is fully rendered in 3D, and it's not low budget at all. It doesn't make any sense to compare with Sonic Mania. Sonic Mania occupies less than 200mb of disk space, Metroid Dread occupies 4.1gb.

If you are happy with Sonic games being only 2D, and with a length of only 2 hours. Ok, just be happy. I don't see the point of being mad about people wanting longer triple A Sonic games.

Now you're changing goalposts and are officially wasting everyone's time.

Have a nice day.

[Kazhnuz]

1 hour ago, Red Hot Jack said:

Yep about life and rings, I also immediately thought of the same thing, you lose 10/20 rings per hit. Would make sense and it happened in some games, I think Shadow? Because enemies were tough (they also were in Sonic Heroes but in a more simple way).

Yep, and there is also a bit of variation in 2006, where the vulkan canon only makes you loose 1 rings per ball, the kind of idea that might be useful for a more action-adventury vision of Sonic. Combined with that you need to be hit while having 0 ring to die in a Sonic game (I won't say "loose a life", as life are certainly a thing of the past now in Sonic, I don't think we'll see them again soon), it might have some interesting implication gameplay-wise. I think some stuff that traditionally kill you in Sonic games might just makes us loose rings.

And IIRC, in BK/SasTR, the max number of rings became larger with time (two game Kishimoto was a game designer of) with the skill we get, so I think it's reasonnable to think that if they choose a "different hit makes us loose different amount of rings" mechanics, the max number of rings will become bigger. (in a way, it might be seen as some glorified life bar, but it doesn't bother me that much).

( As always, it's only some speculation, and a possible way to go. )

1 hour ago, Red Hot Jack said:

I would love progression, it doesn't take away from open world, I'm seeing this in Legends Arceus too, you unlock new areas later through the game.

Maybe have Sonic/player choose the next island, or you have 2 islands unlocked to play and you can choose what to play first... freedom but also progression. They have done that in Colors and Generations as well. But it also depends on how many islands exactly we are getting. Money is on 4 or 7 depending how big the game is or how big these zones are...

Yep, I think too having progression like that could be great, and I think it's a bit what the "open-zone" mean. About the number, I feel it'll depends also of the "cyberspace stages". I feel that already having possibly 7*4 might be a lot (even if I think they won't be full Unleashed-level size, I can't help but see them more like the Sonic Simulator stage from Sonic Colors… a.k.a. another game designed by Kishimoto XD), but I feel it's not impossible too to have a 7*7, if they're a bit more like where stage in Sonic Colors (which have when we combine main), for instance.

Here, it'll also depends of who they have working on the game, I suppose. It's pretty sure that if they really exists, the Cyberspace levels have their own sub-team inside the game (because according to the leak, they seems to have a really different type of game design).

[SonicBlastAwesome]

2 hours ago, Red Hot Jack said:

Yep about life and rings, I also immediately thought of the same thing, you lose 10/20 rings per hit. Would make sense and it happened in some games, I think Shadow? Because enemies were tough (they also were in Sonic Heroes but in a more simple way).

I would love progression, it doesn't take away from open world, I'm seeing this in Legends Arceus too, you unlock new areas later through the game.

Maybe have Sonic/player choose the next island, or you have 2 islands unlocked to play and you can choose what to play first... freedom but also progression. They have done that in Colors and Generations as well. But it also depends on how many islands exactly we are getting. Money is on 4 or 7 depending how big the game is or how big these zones are...

Super Sonic and boss battles: it's a unique thing for sure, can't say yet what to expect, I'm assuming you fight the titans so you need more power and Super Sonic is necessary. The leak also mentioned Super Sonic boss fight where you climb the titan. 

Btw, I'm pretty sure the original leaks featured the first island only, would make sense: ghost girl (Amy is the first ghost friend to rescue in the game, maybe), first stage, start of skill tree, Super Sonic boss (which happens at the end of completion of each island).

We originally thought Super Sonic fight was the final boss, but it may be for every boss as other leaks mentioned. Waaaait, what if each island has 7 stages and you need to collect the emeralds in EACH island? To unlock Super Sonic for the boss, and repeat 4 times (if there are 4 islands). It would feel repetitive as fuck but still new and also different from other games.

 

I think Amy will be a important character for the game to helping Sonic for the story because Sonic might gonna show his true feelings for Amy for entire storyline maybe.

[BubbleButt TV]

lol they are not gonna make SonAmy canon

[Coz483]

52 minutes ago, SonicBlastAwesome said:

Sonic might gonna show his true feelings for Amy

Pfft sure

[CertifiedNobody]

1 hour ago, SonicBlastAwesome said:

Sonic might gonna show his true feelings for Amy

He already has in the Adventure games and Generations. His true feelings are that he finds her annoying and he has no interest in any kind of relationship.

6 hours ago, Natie said:

This whole conversation's just got me repeating the old adage 

Shorter games? So 2 hours long instead of 3?

[Razule]

The current word from SEGA according to Flynn seems to be they're mutually interested in each other, but no one is in a relationship. That's development, kind of..? Better than how they were in the 2000s anyway.