Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[Iko]

I prefer shorter but well made games over longer games which have their content repeated and artificially extended by forcing you to do filler stuff, watch long cutsenes or read text.

For example, Bowser's Fury is already one of my favorite Mario games, while Odyssey, it bored me and its level design and gimmick are way less interesting.

Metroid Dread is great and I loved it, and it can be completed under 4 hours.

Honestly I prefer shorter Sonic games in general, because I can finish them in one session and eventually replay them multiple times, maybe using different characters, with different side goals (speedrun, collect the emeralds, side missions in levels, I don't know), and such.

You can make a short game AAA quality too, short doesn't mean effortless.

If they really need to make longer Sonic games, my suggestion is to go the Kirby Superstar route: make the game a collection of many smaller 1 hour and 30 minutes long games (on average), each with their own beginning and ending cutscenes, final bosses, collectables, secrets and slightly different gameplay rules or structure (to an extent, no adventure-like alternate gameplay). The stories of the sub-games should be self-contained but they can still be connected to the bigger main plot of the game through references (example: in one sub-game you rescue a character, in a later different sub-game that same character helps you back as a reward).

Sonic is an arcade game at its core, and I prefer when it feels like it.

[Kazhnuz]

Even if I tend to prefer more Action-Adventure-y games, I think that a "Sonic SuperStar Deluxe" could be a really interesting game, and a good way to experiment some concepts.

[BubbleButt TV]

2 hours ago, Razule said:

The current word from SEGA according to Flynn seems to be they're mutually interested in each other, but no one is in a relationship. That's development, kind of..? Better than how they were in the 2000s anyway.

I always thought Sonic just found Amy to be too immature. If anything, Frontiers will probably end with him being like "hey you ain't so bad after all" but I don't think they're planning any kind of romantic pairing. I think it's better if they're just friends imho

[Tornado]

I'd say the main thing that would be protecting Sonic games from lootboxes and microtransactions is that I can't offhand think of how Sega could implement those into a platformer. When you're talking about something like 

open world sandbox Ubisoft Game

That shit writes itself. You just make sure every single in game item in a game that has hundreds is tied to a game storefront and there's your exploitative money making in a single player game; but the only thing I can think of that Sega could add along those lines is maybe character skins? Sonic games are really too shallow to have the kind of systems that would justify people paying to get around them.

 

 

 

 

Like if Sonic games had a Chao Garden and "properly monetized" it they'd immediately easily have so much fucking money coming in that they'd shit themselves, but I can't see that coming back without Sega shouting it from the rooftops by now.

[azoo]

It's pretty easy to see, to me. Not just for skins/costumes, though that seems the most obvious route.

If you're gonna be fighting a lot of enemies, they're probably gonna give you the ability to buy your way to EXP buffs, or items that'll just help you get EXP buffs. Or just things that help increase your offense, defense, speed, et cetera. If the game is based on a skill-tree, they're going to try to give you specific ways to push Sonic's skills in the direction you want him to go, so I imagine buying your way into it will be a way if you don't want to waste a whole bunch of time doing it. Pretty easy to imagine people making videos and posts everywhere about their Sonics being maxed out or honed into this and what it can do, etc.

As for the "the other characters are spirits in Sonic's head" and "cyberspace" bits, I can imagine they could treat characters as anything-goes and make you pay for any array of them as supports in your battles, much like how Sonic Runners does that for their endless-runner junk where they help collect rings, protect you from harm, or whatever (in this game, probably helping you fight too). They'll have you on some weekends actively booting up Frontiers because this weekend only you can get a chance to unlock Winter Tikal and a snowman Chao or something. 

Is all of this trashy? Well yeah. But if we look at Runners or even PSO2 it's easy to see Sonic Team wouldn't be above putting this in a game of theirs, even about Sonic. This kind of game design is everywhere now for huge titles, so I can see Frontiers sopping it right up and it taking precedent over the game itself. I mean, how else are they gonna make a game like this last for hundreds of hours like they seem to want? 

[Tornado]

That requires a lot of underlying gameplay mechanics that I don't see Sega actually putting the effort into putting into a Sonic game though

[Red Hot Jack]

6 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

Yep, and there is also a bit of variation in 2006, where the vulkan canon only makes you loose 1 rings per ball, the kind of idea that might be useful for a more action-adventury vision of Sonic. Combined with that you need to be hit while having 0 ring to die in a Sonic game (I won't say "loose a life", as life are certainly a thing of the past now in Sonic, I don't think we'll see them again soon), it might have some interesting implication gameplay-wise. I think some stuff that traditionally kill you in Sonic games might just makes us loose rings.

And IIRC, in BK/SasTR, the max number of rings became larger with time (two game Kishimoto was a game designer of) with the skill we get, so I think it's reasonnable to think that if they choose a "different hit makes us loose different amount of rings" mechanics, the max number of rings will become bigger. (in a way, it might be seen as some glorified life bar, but it doesn't bother me that much).

( As always, it's only some speculation, and a possible way to go. )

Yep, I think too having progression like that could be great, and I think it's a bit what the "open-zone" mean. About the number, I feel it'll depends also of the "cyberspace stages". I feel that already having possibly 7*4 might be a lot (even if I think they won't be full Unleashed-level size, I can't help but see them more like the Sonic Simulator stage from Sonic Colors… a.k.a. another game designed by Kishimoto XD), but I feel it's not impossible too to have a 7*7, if they're a bit more like where stage in Sonic Colors (which have when we combine main), for instance.

Here, it'll also depends of who they have working on the game, I suppose. It's pretty sure that if they really exists, the Cyberspace levels have their own sub-team inside the game (because according to the leak, they seems to have a really different type of game design).

Nah. I believe a leak mentioned actual cyberspace zones a la GHZ and CPZ-like zones. I think it's more likely 4 islands with 7 traditional stages each. And 7 traditional zones.

[azoo]

34 minutes ago, Tornado said:

That requires a lot of underlying gameplay mechanics that I don't see Sega actually putting the effort into putting into a Sonic game though

If this is Sega's biggest push for Sonic in a long time like they're making it out to be, I could see them going that far. 

I can imagine Sega putting in a LOT of effort into a Sonic game. I can just never imagine it with the best intentions, lol.

[Kazhnuz]

For micro-transaction, I still will wait before really consider anything about that point. I won't say that SEGA is "above" doing that nor that I think it's impossible, just that it might be one of the first time it happens in one of their traditional game, as far as I know. Sure, there is a first time for anything, but I'd rather have some info that goes in that directions before really saying if it's a possibility.

48 minutes ago, Red Hot Jack said:

Nah. I believe a leak mentioned actual cyberspace zones a la GHZ and CPZ-like zones. I think it's more likely 4 islands with 7 traditional stages each. And 7 traditional zones.

IIRC it was only on the leak reported from a Tails Channel staff, and I still think it have it have a huge issue that makes me think it's not really believable : It's nearly impossible that a leaker would give that much info that make them able to be found by SEGA (as they basically tell stuff that they said to SEGA while breaking their NDA).

So on that info, for the moment I'm pretty neutral. I think that if they have some "themes", they won't be fully real "zone".

[KHCast]

1 hour ago, azoo said:

Is all of this trashy? Well yeah. But if we look at Runners or even PSO2 it's easy to see Sonic Team wouldn't be above putting this in a game of theirs, even about Sonic. This kind of game design is everywhere now for huge titles, so I can see Frontiers sopping it right up and it taking precedent over the game itself.

I mean this game is clearly being based off BotW, a game that doesn’t have that shit, and did just fine. If they’re really looking to mimic it, I think the last thing they’d wanna do is shove in shitty cynical microtransactions. Hell, Pokémon Arceus, despite being from the company that published Go and Unite, doesn’t have that shit even. I don’t see it happening atm

[Razule]

Maybe it's four islands with two zones each, except for the last one.

[QZX343]

I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up, but what kind of side quests do you guys think will be in the game? Since this game is going to be open world, I would imagine there will be some side content for you to do.

[BubbleButt TV]

1 hour ago, azoo said:

They'll have you on some weekends actively booting up Frontiers because this weekend only you can get a chance to unlock Winter Tikal and a snowman Chao or something. 

I hate this type of shit so much lol I wouldn't be surprised if they did it

[KingMario05]

No. No microtransactions, please. Call me a dinosaur, but I prefer HAVING FUN to maxing out Mommy and Daddy's credit cards on digital BS.

[Shiny Gems]

You know, I realize we are talking microtransactions in Frontiers, which I do not want, by the way; but while I am late for this, all about the combat system that we know nothing of yet, I have something to say on the matter.

I understand that some of you are skeptical, or downright cynical, which is no problem to have, based on Sonic Team's past performances and experiments with combat. However, those were all generic forms of combat put in to Sonic games, from Black Knight, to Dark Brotherhood, maybe Heroes, as I have said before and as I believe. But that is just an opening, not the point I shall try to make. Rather...

Maybe, while remaining skeptical, why not try to let go of the past combat styles for Sonic games Sonic Team has tried out that people may not have liked; to an extent, maybe, if that helps; and instead think of what we want for combat in Sonic games? Sure, there is no guarantee Sonic Team will do something that goes in line for whatever people want for Sonic games, but...while I am no psychologist, I think looking towards the future (even if not too far, which we do not want to do yet) and thinking of something to get our minds off of how well past Sonic game's combat systems did not do, while remaining cautious, of course; would do some help some until we get some actual footage of the game. Just building up worry, to me, won't help in the long run in whatever this combat system turns out to be, depending on what it is.

Now, this is not me telling you what to do, as you are free to not do this if you wish. However, whatever you may think of this, I only want you to see what I just said as a suggestion, and that is that. I said what I wanted to say, the rest can be up to you. I hope you all don't mind me making this post here.

[CertifiedNobody]

5 hours ago, azoo said:

Is all of this trashy? Well yeah. But if we look at Runners or even PSO2

Free to play online games vs $60+ singleplayer game

Not exactly the same thing

[azoo]

It just feels pointless to have combat in a series where dispatching enemies has always been a secondary function related to movement. Jumps let you… well, jump, homing attacks let you use objects/enemies as stepping stones, rolling and Spindashing let’s you go under or through things and down slopes, boost or stomp let’s you blast straight forward or down at top speed, somersault for braking, etc.

And all of said moves take out enemies in one hit, which is the bigger deal. Sonic as a game has always been built with mechanics that as bluntly and quickly defeat enemies as they do their respective action. 
 

tl;dr it feels redundant to give Sonic combat when other moves do it with more depth beyond being an attack. And there’s no real way to justify attacks on their own when Sonic has mostly only done one-hit enemies. It’s gonna feel wrong imagining it until we see it in motion, and even then it’s gonna stay polarizing for the people hung up on the aforementioned points.

[CertifiedNobody]

1 minute ago, azoo said:

It just feels pointless to have combat in a series where dispatching enemies has always been a secondary function related to movement. Jumps let you… well, jump, homing attacks let you use objects/enemies as stepping stones, rolling and Spindashing let’s you go under or through things and down slopes, boost or stomp let’s you blast straight forward or down at top speed, somersault for braking, etc.

And all of said moves take out enemies in one hit, which is the bigger deal. Sonic as a game has always been built with mechanics that as bluntly and quickly defeat enemies as they do their respective action. 
 

tl;dr it feels redundant to give Sonic combat when other moves do it with more depth beyond being an attack. And there’s no real way to justify attacks on their own when Sonic has mostly only done one-hit enemies. It’s gonna feel wrong imagining it until we see it in motion, and even then it’s gonna stay polarizing for the people hung up on the aforementioned points.

Hypothetically, they could make combat based around movement, style, and speed. Spamming homing attack would take several hits to kill basic enemies, but chaining different attacks and kills would earn more XP and finish encounters faster.

[Shiny Gems]

You know, speaking of combat, I had a little thought: Instead of having fewer one hit enemies at a time to take out via homing attack; why not have multiple enemies that require one hit, or waves of such enemies to take on using Sonic's speed and new combat skills to clear them out as quickly as possible in more than one way?

I think something like that could work for Frontiers, and if I read what it does correctly, the Spin Cycle mentioned in the leaks would be one perfect move for doing that. I don't mean using just one thing or something like the Light Speed Attack, either.

EDIT: Basically have more than one quick way to take out multiple one hit enemies.

[light-gaia]

11 hours ago, Iko said:

I prefer shorter but well made games over longer games which have their content repeated and artificially extended by forcing you to do filler stuff, watch long cutsenes or read text.

For example, Bowser's Fury is already one of my favorite Mario games, while Odyssey, it bored me and its level design and gimmick are way less interesting.

Metroid Dread is great and I loved it, and it can be completed under 4 hours.

Honestly I prefer shorter Sonic games in general, because I can finish them in one session and eventually replay them multiple times, maybe using different characters, with different side goals (speedrun, collect the emeralds, side missions in levels, I don't know), and such.

You can make a short game AAA quality too, short doesn't mean effortless.

If they really need to make longer Sonic games, my suggestion is to go the Kirby Superstar route: make the game a collection of many smaller 1 hour and 30 minutes long games (on average), each with their own beginning and ending cutscenes, final bosses, collectables, secrets and slightly different gameplay rules or structure (to an extent, no adventure-like alternate gameplay). The stories of the sub-games should be self-contained but they can still be connected to the bigger main plot of the game through references (example: in one sub-game you rescue a character, in a later different sub-game that same character helps you back as a reward).

Sonic is an arcade game at its core, and I prefer when it feels like it.

I prefer longer games that all of their content is great. There are a lot of games like that.

[Wraith]

Ideal Sonic game length for me would probably be 5-7 hours. Even the ones that are 10 felt like they were pushing it to me.

[Kuzu]

Platformers should not be going any longer than 5-6 hours imo.

[Razule]

I'm cool with whatever it takes for a game to be cheaper.

[StaticMania]

People care more about how long it'd take to 100% a game than the actual A to B...start & finish length.

For a platformer, that would be 4 hours.

[azoo]

4-5 hours at most. The sweet spot is a 2-3 hour game that gives 10+ hours of replay factor.