Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[CertifiedNobody]

I just want to be able to sink a decent amount of time into a Sonic game without feeling like I'm retreading the same levels over and over.

[Zaysho]

I feel like the people arguing for longer games aren't really giving what an acceptable length for Sonic even is and have been trying to throw budgets, gameplay styles, pricing, whatever into the conversation when that doesn't matter. Like, what is a decent amount of time for a platformer (strictly considering main game, not completion)? What kind of content would keep you invested for that timeframe? I love timesink games like JRPGs a lot (and have a habit of replaying the ones I like a lot so they rack up 100s of hours), but those aren't games that require the kind of active action from players the way a Sonic game (ideally) would.

Sonic games can be significantly shorter but still be really engaging and valuable experiences. Ten hours is the max for main game for me (I agree more with the average suggestion of 5 hours for main game), what'll keep me coming back is if controls are fun to play with and the stage design (and this is intended to be an "open zone" game) gives me options to mess with and reward me for that, but also being able to just finish it faster if I feel like it. That can add up to way more play time because of the pick up and play nature these kinds of games have versus a long haul type of game. I like both, but if I'm turning on Breath of the Wild, I'm planning on sitting there for six hours gathering materials, sniping enemies and seeing how far I can get. If I'm turning on a Sonic game, I'm not expecting to sit there as long in a single session, but if it's good it'll encourage me to keep picking it up whenever I want to improve scores and reaction times over the long term.

[Red Hot Jack]

Longevity: I still believe people would rather have some 5-6 godlike hours of good gameplay experience instead of a forced 20/30 hours of streched story time with obligatory but still filler side quests. There is also the matter that this might be a 60/70 dollars game, so maybe it has to be longer... but it can be that with extra content and a "short" story.

It's Sonic, it won't take more than 5-6 hours to complete the main story, c'mon.

Side-quests: I assume NPCs in the islands will ask you to complete some traditional missions? Collect rings, find a Chao, destroy robots, etc.

Microtransactions: Why are we discussing this, again? It's more of a terrifying thought, but it's just that to be honest, this is SEGA, if the game is already 60 or 70 dollars already, why would they force microtransactions too? Maybe money is never enough, then I'd rather have paid DLC as an expansion pass. Microtransactions, yes those are more popular in a multiplayer game like CTR even though it still made no sense there.

[Kazhnuz]

For a linear plateformer, I can like as much a 2 hours games than a 12 hours one, as long as it stays fun for the whole duration, and that how they make it longer doesn't feel artificial (like getting emblems in Unleashed or getting small animals in SLW, or playing 4 time the same game in Heroes). I kinda also agree that 5~6 hours is really good for a Sonic plateformer, but SA2 is IIRC more and it didn't bother me much. For an openworld game with RPG-y mechanics, I haven't much a "target duration", as I'll often sink tons of ones as I like playing them as "I'm going back from work, I launch the game and advance a bit". So IMO, I feel it's not just a difference of time but of experience.

I feel that it's a bit where it's really a question of what interest us, in general and in Sonic. I personally tend to see Sonic as something pretty flexible that can be put in nearly any genre and transform it with its concept of being speedy and fluid (that's why I don't care that much about momentum, even multi-HP enemies wouldn't have bothered me much with a better battle system in Shadow/2006).

 

That's why I think that even if it's "good" (by that I mean that it handle well what it aim to do), the actual thing it'll want to do will be divisive and will alienate a part of the fandom, and that it's feeling will be legitimate. I feel that even at its best, this game will create a new split in the community, with people that like this new direction, and people who don't. And I would be a bit of an hypocrite if I said that it'll be "fine by me" that it's divisive, because I've got high chance to be on the group of those who like this, so I feel it wouldn't be nice for the people that'll feel alienated by this different vision, I can understand why this project (if our speculations are true) wouldn't be their Sonic (a bit like I understand people disliking post-98 games or post-08 games).

That's why I feel that they should do more "traditional" game at the same time (some smaller 3D project, or other "Mania-like" project). But here we're coming in the question that SEGA should do a tad more Sonic games IMO, and that's maybe another topic.

 

Now the question for SEGA is how much it'll please or not the "greater public", the "silent players" will like it. By "greater public"/"silent players" I mean all the people that regulary play Sonic games but do not interact in the fandom spaces and/or the potential new player that'll be "captured" by the larger-reach medias. They've not necessarily the same point of view than us (mine included, of course), as we're an over-specialized part of the fandom, and we (me included, again) can't really say if we know exactly what they'll like.

I think it'll will be the "hit or miss" part of the game (again, in the case the game manage to do well what it wants to do, if it can't, it'll be another story).

( Sorry for the disclaimer and the "me included", I really want to say that I don't say that to dismiss people thinking this is a good nor people thinking this is a bad direction, I'm just pointing where I think that it's difficult in my opinion to really know if it'll success based on that. )

[BadBehavior]

I mean, it goes without saying that we want the game to be longer and more substansial than Forces right? Cos im hearing a lot of worry about it being too long and not much about it being too short or too basic.

[Razule]

30 minutes ago, BadBehavior said:

I mean, it goes without saying that we want the game to be longer and more substansial than Forces right? Cos im hearing a lot of worry about it being too long and not much about it being too short or too basic.

It's a given it'll be longer.

[CertifiedNobody]

5 hours ago, Zaysho said:

I feel like the people arguing for longer games aren't really giving what an acceptable length for Sonic even is and have been trying to throw budgets, gameplay styles, pricing, whatever into the conversation when that doesn't matter. Like, what is a decent amount of time for a platformer (strictly considering main game, not completion)?

I don't think Frontiers is a platformer

5 hours ago, Zaysho said:

What kind of content would keep you invested for that timeframe?

Fun locations to explore, new abilities and costumes/skins to unlock, minibosses and sidequests, interesting NPCs, big bosses, cutscenes.

5 hours ago, Zaysho said:

I love timesink games like JRPGs a lot (and have a habit of replaying the ones I like a lot so they rack up 100s of hours), but those aren't games that require the kind of active action from players the way a Sonic game (ideally) would.

It doesn't need to be 100+ hours, I don't think anybody is asking for that, but Sonic isn't limited by going through linear levels or boost gameplay anymore, making a long game doesn't mean a few hours of actual content and a filler gimmick.

 

5 hours ago, Zaysho said:

Sonic games can be significantly shorter but still be really engaging and valuable experiences. Ten hours is the max for main game for me (I agree more with the average suggestion of 5 hours for main game),

Shouldn't we be able to try something new? I do envy the ability to sink time into a bigger game that a lot of other franchises have, and we shouldn't write off the idea before giving it a chance to be executed.

6 hours ago, Zaysho said:

That can add up to way more play time because of the pick up and play nature these kinds of games have versus a long haul type of game. I like both, but if I'm turning on Breath of the Wild, I'm planning on sitting there for six hours gathering materials, sniping enemies and seeing how far I can get. If I'm turning on a Sonic game, I'm not expecting to sit there as long in a single session, but if it's good it'll encourage me to keep picking it up whenever I want to improve scores and reaction times over the long term.

I think it's a mistake to apply your previous expectations of what a Sonic game is and should be here. It's supposedly going to be as radical of a shift as Adventure was to the classic games.

[Coz483]

8 hours is the ideal time for the main story of a platformer for me. Have enough levels to where you don't feel too overwhelmed, but also not have it be too overly long. I play like 20-30 minutes of gameplay for a platformer a day compared to like 4-6 hours of an rpg or some other long game, so I think that size would work well.

[StaticMania]

The ratio of cutscenes to gameplay for a platformer to be 8 hours would be ridiculously skewed...

From start to finish anyway, I'm not factoring in skill or anything.

Of course, you could just have a bunch of repetitious tasks to go through in the form of sidequests and have the player go through at least 2 loading screens per quest. Loading is faster now, but it'll add up.

[Coz483]

24 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

The ratio of cutscenes to gameplay for a platformer to be 8 hours would be ridiculously skewed...

From start to finish anyway, I'm not factoring in skill or anything.

Of course, you could just have a bunch of repetitious tasks to go through in the form of sidequests and have the player go through at least 2 loading screens per quest. Loading is faster now, but it'll add up.

8 hours includes cutscenes

[StaticMania]

Does it really?

Good to know.

[Zaysho]

16 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

It doesn't need to be 100+ hours, I don't think anybody is asking for that, but Sonic isn't limited by going through linear levels or boost gameplay anymore, making a long game doesn't mean a few hours of actual content and a filler gimmick.

This is why I asked for a number on the main game. What is the cap? Then you can start filling in what kind of content you'd expect to carry that experience. We can set it at 20 hours for a starting point. There isn't anything inherently wrong with making a game longer, but the reason people probably prefer shorter main game is because Sonic Team has a habit of padding the shit out of 3D Sonic games to artificially extend playtime. Even critical darling Sonic Colors is full of that despite being a more focused game than what came before it. Those stages aren't fun diversions that reward you putting in the extra time, they're busywork that don't fit with the rest of the game that are actively part of your main progress.

Sonic Team could actually make something that isn't padded and have more interesting side content that properly supplements the game, but so far, this developer does not have that track record. That's why people are doubtful when they hear about these generalized comparisons about what Sonic "should be" to match the bigger games out there.

16 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Shouldn't we be able to try something new? I do envy the ability to sink time into a bigger game that a lot of other franchises have, and we shouldn't write off the idea before giving it a chance to be executed

Even Sonic's direct competitor, Mario released a game with an average run time of just over twelve hours with completion taking way more time. I don't like Odyssey's post-game as much as I like the campaign but it's genuinely fun to pick up and play for an hour or so messing with the controls and then, oh another Power Moon. It doesn't need to capitalize your time the same way a bigger, story-focused game would.

That's a similar strength that the good Sonic games usually have, because they reward replaying and mastery of them. The reason people still love the racing stages of SA2 is because you have tons of tools at your disposal which open up the stages in ways they weren't the first time, giving an incentive to explore and replay them, but also making it possible to improve your score in an arcade-y way. Then on top of that, replaying it lets you goof around with your Chao if you like doing that, and while that has a busywork aspect to it (unfortunately being tied to the completion reward) it's not something that halts normal progression like medal collecting or Colors' filler acts if all you care about is the story.

16 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

I think it's a mistake to apply your previous expectations of what a Sonic game is and should be here. It's supposedly going to be as radical of a shift as Adventure was to the classic games.

Sega hasn't given me anything to set or change my expectations in the first place. All they have done so far is made it look like they're aping what swept the Keighley Awards in 2017 when Sonic Forces couldn't make it. The most "solid" info we have comes from old, uncanny 4chan posts which align with recent press releases. I only have their past output and the most obvious example of what they're aiming for until they show something to base anything on, the word from marketing doesn't mean anything to me. Hell, the only thing that's kept me from writing this game off altogether is because Ian Flynn is on board and I actually want this game to stick the landing for his sake.

[KingMario05]

7 hours ago, Zaysho said:

Sega hasn't given me anything to set or change my expectations in the first place. All they have done so far is made it look like they're aping what swept the Keighley Awards in 2017 when Sonic Forces couldn't make it.

Thank you. I kept wondering why I keep feeling nothing for Frontiers, and you've hit the nail on the head. As much as I look at it, read up on the leaks, watch the trailer again and again... it doesn't feel like a Sonic game. It feels like Sega's BOTW... and while that may be great, that's not what I want to be the standard for the next decade of Sonic.

[Red Hot Jack]

I don't feel much either for Frontiers looking at the announcement trailer... it has wide open environments that look too realistic. I feel something for the details though, in particular:

- Amy being the ghost girl has story potential

- Ian Flynn writing

- The inspiration from BOTW which includes open world, while still too much apparent, is a good thing

For the "game feel", I dunno... I'm conflicted, it looks too realistic for Sonic, but on the other hand it looks a return to the Adventure era vibe, there are mysterious technology and culture, islands to explore, robots to fight. It looks cool at least.

The rest I can't say, I can't say yet if I'm interested in the game because we have seen 0,01% of it. We know stuff through leaks. It's not enough.

 

 

[KingMario05]

1 hour ago, Red Hot Jack said:

I don't feel much either for Frontiers looking at the announcement trailer... it has wide open environments that look too realistic. I feel something for the details though, in particular:

- Amy being the ghost girl has story potential

- Ian Flynn writing

- The inspiration from BOTW which includes open world, while still too much apparent, is a good thing

For the "game feel", I dunno... I'm conflicted, it looks too realistic for Sonic, but on the other hand it looks a return to the Adventure era vibe, there are mysterious technology and culture, islands to explore, robots to fight. It looks cool at least.

The rest I can't say, I can't say yet if I'm interested in the game because we have seen 0,01% of it. We know stuff through leaks. It's not enough.

 

 

Honestly, the thing it's missing for me is some urban levels. I get that nature always was and shall always be a big part of the franchise - I understand that. Ergo, environmentalism makes perfect sense. (Can't be woke if it was always there, after all.)

But my God, Sonic Team, PUT IN A FRIGGIN' FACTORY OR SOMETHING. They and the urban levels were some of my favorites in Mania and SA1, so it'd be a real shame if the Starfall Islands have aboslutely nothing to offer outside of great views, wonky combat, and bullshit collectables.

Yes, I know that they're probably won't be a massive city to futz around in. (Sucks, but that ain't the vibe we're going for here.) Still, I at least want something to break up the monotony of the fields they've shown off so far. Natives we can liberate from Eggman camp-by-camp, ruins of an ancient civilization packed with lore, engaging platforming challenges so that we can really connect this one with Sonic's Classic routes.

Right now, I see none of that. Just another, boring open-world to get lost in and then drop. And that makes me sad.

[CertifiedNobody]

16 minutes ago, KingMario05 said:

Honestly, the thing it's missing for me is some urban levels. I get that nature always was and shall always be a big part of the franchise - I understand that. Ergo, environmentalism makes perfect sense. (Can't be woke if it was always there, after all.)

But my God, Sonic Team, PUT IN A FRIGGIN' FACTORY OR SOMETHING. They and the urban levels were some of my favorites in Mania and SA1, so it'd be a real shame if the Starfall Islands have aboslutely nothing to offer outside of great views, wonky combat, and bullshit collectables.

Yes, I know that they're probably won't be a massive city to futz around in. (Sucks, but that ain't the vibe we're going for here.) Still, I at least want something to break up the monotony of the fields they've shown off so far. Natives we can liberate from Eggman camp-by-camp, ruins of an ancient civilization packed with lore, engaging platforming challenges so that we can really connect this one with Sonic's Classic routes.

Right now, I see none of that. Just another, boring open-world to get lost in and then drop. And that makes me sad.

We're only seeing one of several islands. We've seen a very small amount of the land and Eggman's extensive presence on the islands heavily implies that he has some sort of main base that he's operating out of, a la Eggmanland or Metropolis. It's not all going to be grassy hills and forests.

10 hours ago, KingMario05 said:

it doesn't feel like a Sonic game.

That applies to most Sonic games tbh. Visually, this isn't far off from Black Knight or 06.

[Kazhnuz]

I'm a bit mixed about the idea of more modern-looking place in Frontiers.

At the first time, even if cities can be fun (even if I feel that they're often really underwhelming in Sonic, especially during the Adventure era), but I'm not sure that they would want it with how they seems to go to that "mysterious vibe" full of ancient cyber-magitek-like aesthetic. So I would tend to say that the landmarks will tend to be more some sort of "antique futuristic place" like the flying reversed pyramide we see in a lot of shot of the "big grassy plain". I'm not sure that if they want that kind of settings, they would want to break too much the "magic" of the aesthetic they're pursuing. (Now it's Sonic Team we're talking about...)

Now, at the same time… There is some elements that seems more contemporary-looking on the shot of the trailer, like the some kind of modern bridge we see in the river shot, so it might be possible that we have some place where there is more technological places, especially as the trailer and environmental video doesn't seems to show a lot of place, which make it really difficult to know exactly what we'll have XD.

But I don't really see for the moment with what we've seen them going to big bustling cities or a gigantic eggman base.

 

[Coz483]

Man I can already tell, you guys are just starving for some news. I hope we get gameplay soon.

[KingMario05]

2 minutes ago, Coz483 said:

Man I can already tell, you guys are just starving for some news. I hope we get gameplay soon.

Hope so too, my friend. Even if I hate what it really is... at least then, I'll know. And knowing is half the battle...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You guys…do know that all Sonic games have diverse environments, right?

Let’s not act like we’ve never seen metropolitan cities in the same region as ancient mystical ruins, or at least in the same full game, before. 
 

Like SA1 has Station Square a mere train ride away from the Mystic Ruins. Sonic isn’t defined by his setting so much as his design and character—kinda like how we can have Mickey Mouse going from easy going mascot in his shows and advertising to fighting like Master Yoda with Keyblades  alongside Final Fantasy in Kingdom Hearts (and literally no one saw shit like that coming decades ago either).

[Razule]

56 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

You guys…do know that all Sonic games have diverse environments, right?

Let’s not act like we’ve never seen metropolitan cities in the same region as ancient mystical ruins, or at least in the same full game, before. 

Everything we've heard about the game so far indicates its an uninhabited series of islands. There might be different kinds of environments, maybe even a city level in Cyber Space, but probably not a Station Square equivalent in the open zone. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

19 minutes ago, Razule said:

Everything we've heard about the game so far indicates its an uninhabited series of islands. There might be different kinds of environments, maybe even a city level in Cyber Space, but probably not a Station Square equivalent in the open zone. 

A Station Square in ruins? Like Crisis City, but with water?

There’s plenty of ways to play with the city level theme, inhabited or not. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was Sonic’s equivalent of Halo’s Forerunners mixed with BotW Shiekahs (to which I say moar!) in the setting.

[Wraith]

I can't see there being an inhabited city in this one. I think they'll focus on ruins, which, honestly, is just as integral to Sonic's visual identity as cities are so I'm not immediately turned off by that idea.

[light-gaia]

On 2/1/2022 at 9:39 AM, BadBehavior said:

I mean, it goes without saying that we want the game to be longer and more substansial than Forces right? Cos im hearing a lot of worry about it being too long and not much about it being too short or too basic.

Most Sonic games from Sonic Colors to now are way too short and easy. I don't want that again. I don't like games that can be beaten in only 2 hours in the first session. Specially if they are like the meta-era games that doesn't even have a proper story.

[StaticMania]

They're too short because they're too easy...