Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[Blue Blood]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

"Combat focused" basically confirms it's not going to be a good game. They've literally never gotten even close to getting that right. I don't know why they keep trying it.

Not that I've got any faith in Sonic Team, but Iizuka doesn't say it'll be "combat focused". His exact quote is this:

Quote

With Sonic Frontiers, we'll introduce new combat styles to bring Sonic's signature dexterity onto the battlefield, and the new exploration options obviously play into his iconic speedy nature.

What Sonic games have really tried combat before? Heroes was mostly a single button 3-hit combo against basic enemies that did nothing. Unleashed used a completely different genre for the Werehog levels that played like a GOW clone. It was entirely removed from the Sonic style platformer gameplay, so it's hard to count. There's no attempt to mix the two. And finally there's Black Knight, which is an on-rails running waggle fest. Again, it's hard to count. 

They don't keep trying combat. They've barely tried it. Heroes is the only time that they've really tried to incorporate combat into typical Sonic gameplay. Outside of that, no other games have tried to incorporate combat mechanics like useful melee whilst you're still playing a typically run-and-jump Sonic game. They don't have enemy AI that's combat focused, and Sonic just uses homing attack spam on enemies with pointlessly big health bars. It's always been padding. 

That they "keep trying" combat isn't really very true. They've never focused on it. Sonic's combat hasn't developed since they added the homing attack.

My main concern with Frontiers right now is that it's barely going to be a platformer and it'll include a lot of very bland, generic open world tropes. An essential but unfun combat system, coupled with a bloated and confusing skill tree would fall right into that category. 

[BubbleButt TV]

see this is why I'm hoping they use Smash Bros. as a base for how Sonic combat could work

This video is what I picture in my mind when I think of the words "Sonic combat"

Smash has a lot of platforming elements anyway so it kinda feels like the perfect harmony.

it's fast-paced and interesting.

[Shiny Gems]

10 minutes ago, BubbleButt TV said:

see this is why I'm hoping they use Smash Bros. as a base for how Sonic combat could work

This video is what I picture in my mind when I think of the words "Sonic combat"

Smash has a lot of platforming elements anyway so it kinda feels like the perfect harmony.

it's fast-paced and interesting.

I wonder...

Considering that Smash Bros. is a 2D series, and that Sonic Frontiers is moreso 3D, I wonder if how fighting works in Smash Bros. would translate well in a 3D-ish game like Sonic Frontiers, if at all?

Not that I have a problem with Smash Bros. like combat being used in Sonic Frontiers, I am just wondering.

[light-gaia]

6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Sonic combat is shallow because Sonic is a platforming series, combat has (almost) always been minimal and perfunctory in it. That doesn't mean there isn't plenty of room to improve on how Sonic interacts with enemies, but a more complicated combat system isn't the only way to do that. Rather than framing it as "combat", I'd rather see the focus on how enemies, Sonic's abilities, and the interactions of the two affect how he moves. Instead of every enemy just existing to do damage, have some that slow him down in other ways. Enemies that latch on and weigh him down until he shakes them off, enemies that spray sticky goop that's slow to trudge through. Have enemies that can't be homing attacked because their tops are armored, or covered in spikes, or bumpers, or whatever, but a low attack like the slide (I'd say roll but we all know that's not coming back) works just fine (and, naturally, enemies with low attacks/defenses that need to be jumped/homing attacked). Have an enemy that peaks out from behind a shield occasionally; attack while the shield's up and you get bumped back (maybe destroying the shield), attack when it's vulnerable and continue unimpeded. Have an enemy that explodes when attacked and sends Sonic on a different trajectory than normal, I don't know. There's a million things you could do that are maybe combat-adjacent but aren't trying to ram an entire complicated combat system into a series that isn't really about fighting things.

Nah, a lot of other platformers have better combat mechanics without affecting the pace of the gameplay. This is not an excuse. For example: Spark the Electric Jester series, Freedom Planet (both heavily inspired by Sonic), and more recently Solar Aches.

 

1 hour ago, Blue Blood said:

Not that I've got any faith in Sonic Team, but Iizuka doesn't say it'll be "combat focused". His exact quote is this:

What Sonic games have really tried combat before? Heroes was mostly a single button 3-hit combo against basic enemies that did nothing. Unleashed used a completely different genre for the Werehog levels that played like a GOW clone. It was entirely removed from the Sonic style platformer gameplay, so it's hard to count. There's no attempt to mix the two. And finally there's Black Knight, which is an on-rails running waggle fest. Again, it's hard to count. 

They don't keep trying combat. They've barely tried it. Heroes is the only time that they've really tried to incorporate combat into typical Sonic gameplay. Outside of that, no other games have tried to incorporate combat mechanics like useful melee whilst you're still playing a typically run-and-jump Sonic game. They don't have enemy AI that's combat focused, and Sonic just uses homing attack spam on enemies with pointlessly big health bars. It's always been padding. 

That they "keep trying" combat isn't really very true. They've never focused on it. Sonic's combat hasn't developed since they added the homing attack.

My main concern with Frontiers right now is that it's barely going to be a platformer and it'll include a lot of very bland, generic open world tropes. An essential but unfun combat system, coupled with a bloated and confusing skill tree would fall right into that category. 

They've never really tried to fix that issue in Sonic's core 3D gameplay, but they have done a few attempts.  I like Shadow the Hedgehog combat, even if the game is a mixed bag.

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

Nah, a lot of other platformers have better combat mechanics without affecting the pace of the gameplay. This is not an excuse. For example: Spark the Electric Jester series, Freedom Planet (both heavily inspired by Sonic), and more recently Solar Aches.

Okay but none of those things are Sonic. My point isn't that a fast-paced combat-heavy platformer is impossible, but that that's not what Sonic was ever trying to be. The Genesis games put the focus on Sonic's movement, his speed, traversing crazy terrain like loops and halfpipes, level gimmicks that would fling and bounce him around, all tied together with more nuanced physics than other platformers of the time. And on the other hand combat was almost as simple as it gets, jump or roll into your target, no separate melee attack or projectile to aim, just move your character to intersect with a vulnerable object. And even as the games got more complex the combat generally didn't, as it still wasn't the point; simple as it was, attacks that kept Sonic moving, like the homing attack and boost, and enemies that didn't put up much resistance, captured the feel of Sonic better than their attempts at bringing in bulkier enemies, melee attacks, and projectile weapons.

And now with Frontiers it sounds like once again they're wandering off track, risking neglecting the focus on movement that defined Sonic just to imitate a bunch of unrelated action games. If shallow enemy interaction is a problem, there are more "Sonic" solutions than a whole new combat system complex enough to justify a skill tree.

[ZinogreVolt]

If combat is kept to an overall minimum during the "traditional" stages, I won't mind the presence of it that much. Exploring an open world means I'll be taking my time and slowing down for most of it anyway, and an open world where I can go wherever I want probably also means there won't be much mandatory combat either. I hope what is there is good and fun, and like Blue Blood mentioned earlier, this is the first time the series has really tried to combine combat with typical gameplay since Heroes (where I didn't mind it). But my main wish regarding combat is that it doesn't become too much of a focus and that it still relies on platforming more, but we'll see how that plays out as more news on the game comes.

[Endy]

What will probably happen, that's happened over and over with Sonic games, is that instead of creating just a couple of different tools that have lots of utility and many interesting ways of interacting with the world, or enemies that fundamentally change how Sonic approaches fighting them, they will create a bunch of individual moves and give them one-track, niche uses to fight enemies that can only die to a specific attack and essentially turn it into a game of simon says. Super thrilling stuff

[Dr. Detective]

The instant this news came out I knew where almost everyone's mind were going to go. It's going to be tough waiting for actual gameplay even more now that I'm sure a ton of people are going to jump to the conclusion that it's "combat" oriented. It won't help that everyone had a different idea of what that means pop into their heads at once. I'm sure a couple someones on Twitter are going to freak out about the werehog or something.

If Izuka was trying to be careful with his words he messed up the instant "new combat" exited his mouth. Then again, it probably didn't matter what he said. 

As for me, none of what he says means anything until I see footage. That's just what I've been trained to do nowadays. And footage sometimes isn't reliable now after Colors Ultimate.

I'm not growing impatient or anything but the tolerance I have for the usual song and dance isn't present. It's kind of amazing that I heard this and my conclusion was "This means nothing". 

Even if it does mean something, it doesn't mean anything until I know what it means. Know what I mean?

[KingMario05]

Just have playable Tails and a decent city, DLC, Sonic Team.

Can ya do that for me? Pleeeeeease? Because, the more and more I see of what you do have planned for Frontiers, the more disinterested I become in it. Boring open world, more clunky combat... reallly, all it has going for it (for me) is Ian Flynn. That's it.

Spoiler

I'll laugh my ass off if they make his shoes breakable, too.

 

[FlameStream]

After the last few entries, I realized that I was actually getting tired of the same formula used in more than a decade of Sonic games.

So I'm ready to hear more about it, to the point where I'll be fine with any entertaining paradigm shift.

[Kazhnuz]

I'll be a bit the contrarian here, but this makes me more interested in the project than anything.

I'm not attached too much to a specific vision of "what is Sonic", so I'm not that disinterested in what is said here (especially as I tend to like openworld games, I'm one of those BotW fan and very excited by PLA) and I feel that the core idea of Sonic is vague enough to work in really different concepts. If anything, I'm pretty curious of how they'll handle these battle, especially if they want to put Sonic's trademark agility in it.

If anything, it's been a while since I've been that interested where Sonic was going like that xD I'm really curious to see the gameplay, how it'll handle, and what it'll be. I'm more afraid about how this style will evolve AFTER the first two game than anything. Most of the time, big paradigm shift in Sonic produce a few good first games imo, and after that it start rotting, and I hope we won't get that here.

 

And if the spin-cycle concept is true, I hope we'll have other concept of the same kind, because it could be an interesting way to handle enemies.

Something that makes me especially interested in that they're working on battle, is that in Forces (even if the result was kinda way too OP, we would have needed more interested enemies), they were ready to drop a whole battle system and redo-it from scratch because it was a "each weapon shoot and have its advantage and issues" and they felt it wasn't fun enough. So i'm curious to see what they'll make here. IMO the ideal would be a battle system where moving is the key, but it's not really easy to do.

So I'm more curious than really afraid by these declaration, tbf.

[Rabbitearsblog]

At this point, I just accepted the fact that Sonic Team is probably never going to go back to basics with this series.  They are always trying something new with this series, whether it feels like an actual Sonic game or not and whether the results are good or not.  Even after hearing that Sonic is going to have more combat skills in this game, all I hope for at this point is for the game to be good. Even if the game is not a platforming game like how past Sonic games usually are, I just want to see a good Sonic game again, no matter how different it is in its gameplay.

[Natie]

That leaked "paraloop" attack is a good idea for an offensive move with a character like Sonic, lets hope and pray to god that the rest of the combat system is full of clever things like that and not just stopping to punch at a bunch of enemies for 5 minutes at a time like a B-grade PS2 platformer.

[NoKaine]

Combat in Sonic has always been its worst aspect universally except in the games about fighting, but since Frontiers seems to be designed with combat in mind, then yeah, I hope there are more ideas like the Spin Cycle.

Thankfully, though, I don't think the combat needs to be great for the game to be good. Like Guardians of the Galaxy.

7 hours ago, Diogenes said:

And now with Frontiers it sounds like once again they're wandering off track, risking neglecting the focus on movement

All he said was "we have a new combat style", which should be expected since it's fundamentally a different game, anyway. Shit, he even said "the new exploration options obviously play into his iconic speedy nature." 

The combat in other games, bare as they are, still revolved around their main gameplay. Same here.

7 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

The instant this news came out I knew where almost everyone's mind were going to go.

To be perfectly honest, Iizuka could say "we're making a video game", and the thread would be five pages of complaining about something and assuming the worst lmao

[KHCast]

25 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

To be perfectly honest, Iizuka could say "we're making a video game", and the thread would be five pages of complaining about something and assuming the worst lmao

Is this necessary? Like at all? I don’t think anyone here is being unreasonable in their skepticism. With a series this inconsistent in quality, getting this defensive when not everyone takes statements like “combat style” with optimism, is honestly weird. Maybe it will be fine, in which case, great. But atm, simply based off track record, and who were dealing with, until actual gameplay further extrapolates on the information they’ve been releasing, skepticism/cynicism is valid 

[light-gaia]

11 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Okay but none of those things are Sonic. My point isn't that a fast-paced combat-heavy platformer is impossible, but that that's not what Sonic was ever trying to be. The Genesis games put the focus on Sonic's movement, his speed, traversing crazy terrain like loops and halfpipes, level gimmicks that would fling and bounce him around, all tied together with more nuanced physics than other platformers of the time. And on the other hand combat was almost as simple as it gets, jump or roll into your target, no separate melee attack or projectile to aim, just move your character to intersect with a vulnerable object. And even as the games got more complex the combat generally didn't, as it still wasn't the point; simple as it was, attacks that kept Sonic moving, like the homing attack and boost, and enemies that didn't put up much resistance, captured the feel of Sonic better than their attempts at bringing in bulkier enemies, melee attacks, and projectile weapons.

And now with Frontiers it sounds like once again they're wandering off track, risking neglecting the focus on movement that defined Sonic just to imitate a bunch of unrelated action games. If shallow enemy interaction is a problem, there are more "Sonic" solutions than a whole new combat system complex enough to justify a skill tree.

All these games I mentioned are momentum based platformers with very similar gameplays to Sonic. I don't know how to post YouTube videos here, but go look for Solar Ashes and you'll be surprised. Not only it's very similar to Sonic, but it's also an open world platformer.

There were nothing wrong with classic Sonic combat, the problem is in the 3D gameplay, specially the boost games

[Coz483]

17 hours ago, Detective Kaito said:

The 4chan leaks did talk about a combat system, and I guess there's our confirmation. Every single time Sonic has tried going more into a more combat focused direction (Sonic Heroes, 06, Unleashed, Boom), it turned out not great. Frontiers will likely not change that, so I expect a very clunky and repetitive combat system that gets boring quick.

All the signs are still pointing towards Frontiers being another mediocre game, but at least it can't be worse than Forces.

This is why everytime I think about Sonic I get depressed because I know everyone will just be uber negative on him and just say he'll fail, which while does have merit is just repetitive

[CertifiedNobody]

18 hours ago, SonicBlastAwesome said:

maybe Sonic/Amy relationship for the story

Do you mean establishing a romantic relationship or just expanding on the relationship they have?

18 hours ago, Detective Kaito said:

The 4chan leaks did talk about a combat system, and I guess there's our confirmation. Every single time Sonic has tried going more into a more combat focused direction (Sonic Heroes, 06, Unleashed, Boom), it turned out not great. Frontiers will likely not change that, so I expect a very clunky and repetitive combat system that gets boring quick.

All the signs are still pointing towards Frontiers being another mediocre game, but at least it can't be worse than Forces.

That's a massive assumption. Very few, if any, of those games were bad because of combat. Heroes suffered from slippery controls, 06 suffered from being rushed, Unleashed suffered from the type of combat chosen, and Boom suffered from switching engines mid development for an underpowered console. I see no other signs pointing to it being mediocre.

7 hours ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

At this point, I just accepted the fact that Sonic Team is probably never going to go back to basics with this series.  They are always trying something new with this series, whether it feels like an actual Sonic game or not and whether the results are good or not.  Even after hearing that Sonic is going to have more combat skills in this game, all I hope for at this point is for the game to be good. Even if the game is not a platforming game like how past Sonic games usually are, I just want to see a good Sonic game again, no matter how different it is in its gameplay.

Good. Sonic's been moving backwards for a decade. It's time for it to move forward.

29 minutes ago, Coz483 said:

This is why everytime I think about Sonic I get depressed because I know everyone will just be uber negative on him and just say he'll fail, which while does have merit is just repetitive

I agree, it's tiring. Every interview is followed with "I don't care, it's not gameplay", and all hope is stomped out with blatant fearmongering.

[Zaysho]

5 hours ago, NoKaine said:

To be perfectly honest, Iizuka could say "we're making a video game", and the thread would be five pages of complaining about something and assuming the worst lmao

I understand this gets you your impressions on Twitter, but try engaging in the thread without behaving like an antagonistic shithead for a change. It seems like almost every time I see you post here it's to jump down someone's throat for any misgiving over this series and dragging the rest of the thread down.

[Tornado]

5 hours ago, NoKaine said:

To be perfectly honest, Iizuka could say "we're making a video game", and the thread would be five pages of complaining about something and assuming the worst lmao

And Iizuka could say "we're making a video game" and release a bunch of screenshots and a trailer that make it look like shit and you'd argue with people for 5 pages about how no one even has any right to question it based on fucking nothing.

[Wraith]

16 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

Not that I've got any faith in Sonic Team, but Iizuka doesn't say it'll be "combat focused". His exact quote is this:

What Sonic games have really tried combat before? Heroes was mostly a single button 3-hit combo against basic enemies that did nothing. Unleashed used a completely different genre for the Werehog levels that played like a GOW clone. It was entirely removed from the Sonic style platformer gameplay, so it's hard to count. There's no attempt to mix the two. And finally there's Black Knight, which is an on-rails running waggle fest. Again, it's hard to count. 

They don't keep trying combat. They've barely tried it. Heroes is the only time that they've really tried to incorporate combat into typical Sonic gameplay. Outside of that, no other games have tried to incorporate combat mechanics like useful melee whilst you're still playing a typically run-and-jump Sonic game. They don't have enemy AI that's combat focused, and Sonic just uses homing attack spam on enemies with pointlessly big health bars. It's always been padding. 

That they "keep trying" combat isn't really very true. They've never focused on it. Sonic's combat hasn't developed since they added the homing attack.

My main concern with Frontiers right now is that it's barely going to be a platformer and it'll include a lot of very bland, generic open world tropes. An essential but unfun combat system, coupled with a bloated and confusing skill tree would fall right into that category. 

Heroes, Shadow, 06, Unleashed, and Black Knight are all examples of them shoehorning beat em up or ARPG mechanics into their games to pad out length. It's not just about whether Sonic has a melee attack or not. Expanded enemy health bars, weapons systems, poorly implemented upgrade mechanics complete with EXP are all examples to me of them looking around for ways to add depth/length and always ending up with systems from other action games.

And it's like...why? Why do their minds always go here and never toward Sonic's movement? Why have I heard more about the new combat system from leaks and the press than the new movement mechanics?

[expansivelovestories]

19 hours ago, BubbleButt TV said:

I hope combat feels fast and agile and plays to Sonic's dexterity and acrobatic skills, instead of being slow and boring like the Werehog.

I hope this is the case! the Frontiers 4chan leaks mentioned the SpinCycle move that was shown in the teaser trailer and the description actually reminds me of this

you run a circle around the enemies and that works to stun/defeat them

it would be so cool if we basically got a game that feels like a playable version of CD's cutscenes

I'm also looking forward to seeing what new animation they make for Sonic for this game

yes!! i am remembering that they mentioned a skill tree, so there could be many unique moves available over time!!  I don't think they specified just how many moves there are, not that the full amount would necessarily have been available in the playtesting demo anyway!!   

[Kuzu]

27 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Heroes, Shadow, 06, Unleashed, and Black Knight are all examples of them shoehorning beat em up or ARPG mechanics into their games to pad out length. It's not just about whether Sonic has a melee attack or not. Expanded enemy health bars, weapons systems, poorly implemented upgrade mechanics complete with EXP are all examples to me of them looking around for ways to add depth/length and always ending up with systems from other action games.

And it's like...why? Why do their minds always go here and never toward Sonic's movement? Why have I heard more about the new combat system from leaks and the press than the new movement mechanics?

Sonic Team really wants to make a character action game over a platformer I guess.

[Rabbitearsblog]

13 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Sonic Team really wants to make a character action game over a platformer I guess.

Honestly, if Sonic Team wants to turn Sonic into an action game over being a platformer, than that's fine with me as long as the game is good.  It's becoming clear at this point that Sonic Team wants to do more than platforming for this series.  I just hope that they know what they are doing in regards to doing an open world setting for this franchise.

[KingMario05]

27 minutes ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

Honestly, if Sonic Team wants to turn Sonic into an action game over being a platformer, than that's fine with me as long as the game is good.  It's becoming clear at this point that Sonic Team wants to do more than platforming for this series.  I just hope that they know what they are doing in regards to doing an open world setting for this franchise.

Agreed. I adored DMC5, so Frontiers'll please me if it's even half as good.

Spoiler

Do I think it will be? Eh... not really, but hey. They're actually trying this time, so at least we're starting off on the right foot.