Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[Starnik]

 

[KHCast]

13 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

When everything you do that's not nostalgia is heavily criticized in a non-constructive way, people never emphasizing anything that could be kept in future games, and the only praised games are the ones that keep mimicking the past (specially Genesis era kind of past), the conclusion that all the people wanted from Sonic is becoming a stale franchise kinda makes sense.

People were very specific about how they adored level design like seaside hill modern. It was very vocal at the time among the fanbase how stuff like that was a breath of fresh air for modern gameplay.

 

Remember, this is the same company that brought a bunch of notable figures in the fanbase to discuss S4, and how to improve it, and threw out all that shit, and still released a mediocre follow up to episode 1. They just don’t listen sometimes, it’s not “fans not being loud enough”

[Diogenes]

Y'ever stop and think about how some developers manage to make good games pretty consistently, without needing constant, detailed input from players and reviewers to guide them in the right direction.

Wish Sonic Team was like that.

[light-gaia]

Sonic Team developers probably are, however Sega doesn't want bad press because it can affect the sales of the games. So, if the entire industry is making nonsense criticism, and it's giving Sonic a bad reputation, Sega will ask the developers to avoid what it's making people criticize the games. Even if the criticism is nonsense

[Jango]

Took a deep look at the videos and images that are circulating around Twitter and the game grew on me a little. Granted not that much, but let's say I understand the concept of the cyberspace being like the Special Stages of this game.

They're short, they give you rings, EXP, itens, all the expected rewards. I think I'm fine with that and I wouldn't have it other way if that's what they're really going for. And if these Special Stages are plenty, I think we shouldn't expect them to be longer than a whole Unleashed or Generations level anyways.

I'm seeing these stages kinda like the flashback tape levels in Crash 4.

What intrigues me, is if Sonic Team will tie this together with the story they're telling or not. Because doing this just because "gotta have Green Hill" is lame, as everyone and their mothers have already said a bazzilion times. But adding a story reason/element for that, say: the evil AI is fabricating stages based on chunks of Sonic's and/or his friends memories is kinda neat. When I saw the Green-mill Isle Hill Zone Act 7 I immediately thought: "-It would've been cooler if it actually was Windmill Isle Act 1, because that sure is a crazy ass memory that could've been explored for the story". Could have Sonic saying "-Damn, I ran through here that time I got turned into a werewolf!". Going back to the Crash 4 flashback levels comparison, one of the coolest things about these levels are all the lore drop we get during them. Since Crash doesn't talk, Neo Cortex and his minions are the ones giving out stuff in the background, from inside jokes to actually really interesting information from the classic games that we didn't got to see or hear before, like Crash's full name or even the origin of his goddamn blue pants lol If the cyberspace levels are anything like that, I'm giving Sonic Team the benefit of the doubt. Give me a meaning for reusing this stuff for the tenth time, instead of just shoving them in to make volume.

The meat and potato is the open world stuff, we can't pretend otherwise. And frankly, it is looking better.

[Starnik]

3 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

Sonic Team developers probably are, however Sega doesn't want bad press because it can affect the sales of the games. So, if the entire industry is making nonsense criticism, and it's giving Sonic a bad reputation, Sega will ask the developers to avoid what it's making people criticize the games. Even if the criticism is nonsense

I don’t think some people realize or care how much their words can hurt. From an outside point of view it’s easy to believe there is nothing good about Sonic, when it’s all they ever hear. A bad reputation can be very damaging. There’s a reason SEGA delayed Frontiers a year. Sonic makes them a lot of money, but they still delayed the game, and told their investors that they had high expectations for Sonic. Sonic can’t live with a bad reputation forever and making good games consistently will change that.

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, Starnik said:

I don’t think some people realize or care how much their words can hurt. From an outside point of view it’s easy to believe there is nothing good about Sonic, when it’s all they ever hear. A bad reputation can be very damaging. There’s a reason SEGA delayed Frontiers a year. Sonic makes them a lot of money, but they still delayed the game, and told their investors that they had high expectations for Sonic. Sonic can’t live with a bad reputation forever and making good games consistently will change that.

Yeah, it is a good thing the critics and those previewing the game, from what they played, are really enjoying it. If this continues, this could be a new start in terms of leaving the bad reputation. Just a start, not completely, but it is something nonetheless.

[light-gaia]

8 minutes ago, Jango said:

Took a deep look at the videos and images that are circulating around Twitter and the game grewn on me a little. Granted not that much, but let's say I understand the concept of cyberspace being like the Special Stages of this game.

They're short, they give you rings, exp, itens, all the expected rewards. I think I'm fine with that and I wouldn't have it other way if that's what they're really going for. And if these Special Stages are plenty, I think we shouldn't expect them to be longer than a whole Unleashed or Generations level anyways.

I'm seeing these stages kinda like the flashback tape levels in Crash 4.

What intrigues me, is if Sonic Team will tie this together with the story they're telling or not. Because doing this just because "gotta have Green Hill" is lame, as everyone and their mothers have already said a bazzilion times. But adding a story reason for that being happening, say: the evil AI fabricating stages based on chunks of Sonic's and/or his friends memories is kinda neat. When I saw the Green-mil Isle Hill Zone Act 7 I immediately thought: "-It would've been cooler if it actually was Windmil Isle Act 1, because that sure is a crazy ass memory that could've been explored for the story". Could have Sonic saying "-Damn, I ran through here that time I got turned into a werewolf!". Going back to the Crash 4 flashback levels comparison, one of the coolest things about these levels are all the lore drop we get during them. Since Crash doesn't talk, Neo Cortex and his minions are the ones giving out stuff in the background, from inside jokes to actually really interesting information from the classic games that we didn't got to see or hear before, like Crash's full name or even the origin of his goddamn blue pants lol If the cyberspace levels are anything like that, I'm giving Sonic Team the benefit of the doubt. Give me a meaning for reusing this stuff for the tenth time, instead of just shoving them in to make volume.

The meat and potato is the open world stuff, we can't pretend otherwise. And frankly, it is looking better.

I wish they showed more about the puzzles and the platforming challenges in the open-zones. It seems like that weird walls that Sonic can run and grab on will be used in some platforming challenges

5 minutes ago, Starnik said:

I don’t think some people realize or care how much their words can hurt. From an outside point of view it’s easy to believe there is nothing good about Sonic, when it’s all they ever hear. A bad reputation can be very damaging. There’s a reason SEGA delayed Frontiers a year. Sonic makes them a lot of money, but they still delayed the game, and told their investors that they had high expectations for Sonic. Sonic can’t live with a bad reputation forever and making good games consistently will change that.

I feel like the hyperbolic criticism trend started after Sonic 2006. It's crazy to think how a single game can damage a whole series reputation. But, I think the future is brighter for Sonic. Even if Sonic Frontiers ended up having some issues. Because I think the industry is giving Sonic Team more constructive criticism right now (for example, most Forces reviews were fair).

[KHCast]

25 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

Sega doesn't want bad press because it can affect the sales of the games.

Okay, this is just in general, not exactly just pertaining to Sonic, but is this even legitimately proven? Or is it just what gamers have just assumed for years now? Cause I recall this mentality being common especially when one or two critics criticize a Nintendo game and don’t give it a 8 or 9 out of 10. “This will effect the sales!!!” Like there have been plenty of mediocre games that were reviewed as such and still result in high sales regardless. Plus, sonics survived and been segas main money maker all the way to this day, and sonic has been marred in bad press routinely. 

[light-gaia]

10 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Okay, this is just in general, not exactly just pertaining to Sonic, but is this even legitimately proven? Or is it just what gamers have just assumed for years now? Cause I recall this mentality being common especially when one or two critics criticize a Nintendo game and don’t give it a 8 or 9 out of 10. “This will effect the sales!!!” Like there have been plenty of mediocre games that were reviewed as such and still result in high sales regardless. Plus, sonics survived and been segas main money maker all the way to this day, and sonic has been marred in bad press routinely. 

A game having 8 of 10 is not bad press. A game having 5 of 10, or even 3 of 10 is (Sonic Unleashed IGN review). And yes, Sonic still sold a lot of copies during the dark age, but it would definitely sell a lot more if wasn't the bad press

[KHCast]

I just love how any and all criticism has basically been turned into a joke and people who are still criticizing aspects of the game are being treated like unpleasable babies. It’s crazy how similar to the forces “hype train” this is turning out like 

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, light-gaia said:

When everything you do that's not nostalgia is heavily criticized in a non-constructive way, people never emphasizing anything that could be kept in future games, and the only praised games are the ones that keep mimicking the past (specially Genesis era kind of past), the conclusion that all the people wanted from Sonic is becoming a stale franchise kinda makes sense.

Maybe if the fans (and the whole industry, actually) had provided more constructive criticism back in the day, we could have the best of both worlds (the best of games like Generations and Colors, and the best games like Sonic Unleashed, Black Knight and other dark age games)

Blaming the fact that some bad criticism exists is a good way to remove any and all accountability from the situation. Every developer deals with bad criticism and split fanbases, and yet most still deliver. We have no way of controlling the actions of millions of people, but Sonic Team could decide not to drop another box on a straight away for the 10th game in a row.

Sonic Team makes bad games because they are bad developers. They make stale games because they fail when when they try to explore new ideas, so leaning on the work of other, better iterations of Sonic from yesteryear is the only way to keep momentum going. Classic iconography isn't used because people are salivating for it, it's because it's a cheap easy way to elicit a positive response and Sonic Team only deals in cheap, easy solutions. I believe very strongly that even the most set in their ways classic fan would be up for something new if it was competently made. The problem is that they've never given us that. They give you something bad, and then they get on their knees and beg for forgiveness not by doing right, but by scraping together a hollow shell of one of the better games. Forces and Frontiers are only unique in that they're pulling double duty, possibly to make up for the decade of lost time they've spent in development compared to the 1-2 year cycles of the previous decade.
 

The way to fix this is to do a hard refresh of the team, get new creators involved with the IP and give them the time and space to work. That would take years and require a lot of hard sacrifices for fans and creatives alike, but look at where the Sonic comic is at compared to where it started. That only happened because new people that were passionate about the IP were brought in, slowly but surely, and did the work. It still has problems, but it shows growth is possible if you're willing to make some hard calls and commit to a consistent product.

 

[light-gaia]

10 minutes ago, KHCast said:

I just love how any and all criticism has basically been turned into a joke and people who are still criticizing aspects of the game are being treated like unpleasable babies. It’s crazy how similar to the forces “hype train” this is turning out like 

The meme kinda makes sense. Every single first level of a Kirby game has the same grass theming with the same tree boss fight. And it's usually not the only recurring theming and boss battle

[Starnik]

16 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Blaming the fact that some bad criticism exists is a good way to remove any and all accountability from the situation. Every developer deals with bad criticism and split fanbases, and yet most still deliver. We have no way of controlling the actions of millions of people, but Sonic Team could decide not to drop another box on a straight away for the 10th game in a row.

Sonic Team makes bad games because they are bad developers. They make stale games because they fail when when they try to explore new ideas, so leaning on the work of other, better iterations of Sonic from yesteryear is the only way to keep momentum going. Classic iconography isn't used because people are salivating for it, it's because it's a cheap easy way to elicit a positive response and Sonic Team only deals in cheap, easy solutions. I believe very strongly that even the most set in their ways classic fan would be up for something new if it was competently made. The problem is that they've never given us that. They give you something bad, and then they get on their knees and beg for forgiveness not by doing right, but by scraping together a hollow shell of one of the better games. Forces and Frontiers are only unique in that they're pulling double duty, possibly to make up for the decade of lost time they've spent in development compared to the 1-2 year cycles of the previous decade.
 

The way to fix this is to do a hard refresh of the team, get new creators involved with the IP and give them the time and space to work. That would take years and require a lot of hard sacrifices for fans and creatives alike, but look at where the Sonic comic is at compared to where it started. That only happened because new people that were passionate about the IP were brought in, slowly but surely, and did the work. It still has problems, but it shows growth is possible if you're willing to make some hard calls and commit to a consistent product.

 

 

 

Sonic Team are human beings. They make mistakes. And they can learn from their mistakes. They also had to deal with a franchise with multiple moving parts and an antsy fan base. 

 

Getting new people involved doesn’t guarantee anything. What new people? Lol. They are not a ton of developers with experience in making platformers. And comparing the games to the comics are strange. Games, unlike comics, are not a interactive medium. Making a game involves multiple components that come together into a full product. (Voice acting, writing, level design, art design, etc.)

 

I know it’s tempting to assume Sonic team don’t care. But that narrative comes from jaded fans, and not any form of reality. People are just projecting their feelings on people they never met. I doubt most fans can even name the members of Sonic Team. “Sonic Team” is basically just a boogeyman in the fandom. It’s easy to hate a group of people when you know nothing about them. If the fans saw them like actual people, they wouldn’t say the things they do.

 

This is how your post comes off btw https://twitter.com/sonicstalgia/status/1533499237421330433?s=21&t=r1mtNcz5hvAKEYEVT6M2FA

 

 

[KHCast]

5 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

The meme kinda makes sense. Every single first level of a Kirby game has the same grass theming with the same tree boss fight. And it's usually not the only recurring theming and boss battle

A lot of the comparisons being made by these people are false equivalences that put these games in a vacuum separated from the context of why one is received well while the other is heavily criticized. Kirby, Mario, etc. firstly aren’t doing those due to budget cutting, secondly they do enough new with the aesthetics and level design, that occasional familiar beats won’t come across as offensive or tacky. Sonic has been relying on the nostalgia for while now, and the asset and design reuse on top of the fact the gameplay for these levels isn’t looking to be anything evolved from previous installments, means this shit becomes more noticeable and uninteresting 

[Shiny Gems]

I would like to say; someone said something about a vocal amount of people wanting Sonic Team to use the level design from modern Seaside Hill in Sonic Generations. Not saying they were drowned out about that, but I am sure other fans, and gamers in general liked what they played, regardless of what they played in that game, and maybe did not care about specifying much on the level design. I can imagine that because most people care about the game being good, regardless of the level design in that game. The same can happen with Frontiers. Now, I think there were so many people who liked Generations that they felt no need to specify anything about level design details. Either way, on the most basic level, they just want something good. Some do not even care how it could be good or what has to be done, just the fact that the game is good. Not everyone cares about analyzing things like level design or reused assets and geometries.

[light-gaia]

Not one is forbidden people of criticizing the game. It's more like some people want everyone to agree with their opinions, when some other people don't, they say that

5 minutes ago, KHCast said:

A lot of the comparisons being made by these people are false equivalences that put these games in a vacuum separated from the context of why one is received well while the other is heavily criticized. Kirby, Mario, etc. firstly aren’t doing those due to budget cutting, secondly they do enough new with the aesthetics and level design, that occasional familiar beats won’t come across as offensive or tacky. Sonic has been relying on the nostalgia for while now, and the asset and design reuse on top of the fact the gameplay for these levels isn’t looking to be anything evolved from previous installments, means this shit becomes more noticeable and uninteresting 

This meme is probably comparing the reusage of old aesthetics with a franchise that does that too (Kirby). And when it comes to Mario, the 3D games are usually original and creative, but the (recent) 2D series is worse than Sonic in these regards.

[KHCast]

9 minutes ago, Starnik said:

I know it’s tempting to assume Sonic team don’t care. But that narrative comes from jaded fans, and not any form of reality. People are just projecting their feelings on people they never met. I doubt most fans can even name the members of Sonic Team. “Sonic Team” is basically just a boogeyman in the fandom. It’s easy to hate a group of people when you know nothing about them. If the fans saw them like actual people, they wouldn’t say the things they do.

 

1 hour ago, KHCast said:

Remember, this is the same company that brought a bunch of notable figures in the fanbase to discuss S4, and how to improve it, and threw out all that shit, and still released a mediocre follow up to episode 1.

@light-gaia I’ve been also seeing people share both that post and this one, so I’m not sure 

[Shiny Gems]

You know, some of the more negative fans seem to be on the case of more optimistic fans and people, sometimes calling them blind. I am sure the same can be said about the negative fans as well. Blind pessimism. Not to criticize or bash anyone here, but what I mean is that some of the negative fans are so pessimistic that they can't see how things are going to be better or won't even let themselves look on the bright side or any positive aspects of a game like Frontiers. They are just not able to see it, whether they see it or not.

So it can work both ways, like what is happening now with some fans, I believe.

[Diogenes]

Whispy Woods is on the level of GHZ returning as a stage theme at most. Yes, you fight a tree as an early boss in a lot of Kirby games. But, especially in later games, they actually change the mechanics of the fights, they don't simply change the graphics. You can't honestly say a boss like Clanky Woods is the same fight as in Kirby's Dream Land, or any of the other Wispy Woods-type fights. Clanky has whole new attacks and movement in a whole new arena, it's a new fight. The problem with Frontiers that's sparked this whole discussion isn't merely that it's reusing GHZ and CPZ and SSZ as settings, it's that it's lifting level design straight from previous levels. There's no new substance to it, it's almost exactly the same experience we've already been through, and where it's different it's largely because they've been stripped down to be even shorter and more shallow than the originals. It's not an equal comparison.

[Jay_Senju]

We haven't really seen that much of her But I honestly find sage more threatening and interesting than Infinite.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Jay_Senju

[Starnik]

 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

5 minutes ago, MightyGems said:

You know, some of the more negative fans seem to be on the case of more optimistic fans and people, sometimes calling them blind. I am sure the same can be said about the negative fans as well. Blind pessimism. Not to criticize or bash anyone here, but what I mean is that some of the negative fans are so pessimistic that they can't see how things are going to be better or won't even let themselves look on the bright side or any positive aspects of a game like Frontiers. They are just not able to see it, whether they see it or not.

So it can work both ways, like what is happening now with some fans, I believe.

Pretty much goes without saying. Those with their mind set on this game being bad, likely aren't going to change their minds.

[DaBigJ]

Amy cutscene

[Shiny Gems]

Just now, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Pretty much goes without saying. Those with their mind set on this game being bad, likely aren't going to change their minds.

Sad, but true, Jovahexeon. That is just how humans work.