Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[Wraith]

10 minutes ago, Starnik said:

Sonic Team are human beings. They make mistakes. And they can learn from their mistakes. They also had to deal with a franchise with multiple moving parts and an antsy fan base. 

So does everyone else in charge of any mildly popular franchise in this industry.

 

10 minutes ago, Starnik said:

And comparing the games to the comics are strange. Games, unlike comics, are not a interactive medium. Making a game involves multiple components that come together into a full product. (Voice acting, writing, level design, art design, etc.)

Did you know comics have multiple components that come together to make a full product? Writers, artists, colorists, letterers, and brand management are all working together to release a single book. Sound familiar?

 

10 minutes ago, Starnik said:

I know it’s tempting to assume Sonic team don’t care. But that narrative comes from jaded fans, and not any form of reality. People are just projecting their feelings on people they never met. I doubt most fans can even name the members of Sonic Team. “Sonic Team” is basically just a boogeyman in the fandom. It’s easy to hate a group of people when you know nothing about them. If the fans saw them like actual people, they wouldn’t say the things they do.

This is how your post comes off btw https://twitter.com/sonicstalgia/status/1533499237421330433?s=21&t=r1mtNcz5hvAKEYEVT6M2FA

The fact that you keep relating this back to people and empathy shows me that you aren't an adult who hasn't had someone try to sell you bullshit before. Sonic Team are people, and people can be incompetent or slimy!

Of course I don't have any personal beef with them, but they're also not my friends. The only time they try to establish a line of communication with me is when they're trying to sell me somethingEven if I had liked everything I bought from them up to this point it would still be extremely unhealthy to call that a relationship of any kind. If they have the nerve to ask for 70 dollars for something like this, I can tell them it doesn't look worth it and break down why. Nothing about that interaction is personal. I even avoid the childish fingerpointing and the 'lazy dev' rhetoric that a lot of people fall into specifically to keep it from being personal.

What's personal is writing sob stories for people you've never met, based on nothing. Some of yall aren't even well versed enough in Sonic Team's history to bring up the history of crunch that's actually at the heart of most of these games having problems. It's always the fans and the critics being meaaan. What's personal is trying to downplay every critique thrown at them not because you actually have a counterpoint, but the fact that critique of this product affects you personally and you feel an emotional need to hit back.

All that being said, which group sounds more like they're projecting their feelings about about Sonic when they discuss this game? Be honest.


 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 minute ago, Jake_LeOFFICIAL said:

Amy cutscene

It's hard to tell which came from the hack or is supposed to be part of what's shown. Lol

[phobs]

I absolutely support many people's argument regarding the level reuse. Considering that we are paying for $60 product, Sonic Team deciding to just pull as much as possible from past games and call it brand new product is awful. I know for sure that level reuse is not going to be that big of deal for me personally, because I am not super devoted fan who replayed Unleashed, Generations and other games over and over again, so I most likely won't even notice the level reuse. However, I sympathize with all devoted fans and I can't understand the desire to protect a game from valid criticism so much.

What I found extremely interesting is that reactions of people who actually played the game at Gamescom seem to be overwhelmingly positive. Seeing a lot of details about the game makes me warm up towards it a little bit. However, it doesn't excuse any valid criticism of it

 

[DaBigJ]

3 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

It's hard to tell which came from the hack or is supposed to be part of what's shown. Lol

This looks to be once you start to explore the island....as stated in the tweet.

[Starnik]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

So does everyone else in charge of any mildly popular franchise in this industry.

Did you know comics have multiple components that come together to make a full product? Writers, artists, colorists, letterers, and brand management are all working together to release a single book. Sound familiar?

The fact that you keep relating this back to people and empathy shows me that you aren't an adult who hasn't had someone try to sell you bullshit before. Sonic Team are people, and people can be incompetent or slimy!

Of course I don't have any personal beef with them, but they're also not my friends. The only time they try to establish a line of communication with me is when they're trying to sell me somethingEven if I had liked everything I bought from them up to this point it would still be extremely unhealthy to call that a relationship of any kind. If they have the nerve to ask for 70 dollars for something like this, I can tell them it doesn't look worth it and break down why. Nothing about that interaction is personal. I even avoid the childish fingerpointing and the 'lazy dev' rhetoric that a lot of people fall into specifically to keep it from being personal.

What's personal is writing sob stories for people you've never met, based on nothing. Some of yall aren't even well versed enough in Sonic Team's history to bring up the history of crunch that's actually at the heart of most of these games having problems. It's always the fans and the critics being meaaan. What's personal is trying to downplay every critique thrown at them not because you actually have a counterpoint, but the fact that critique of this product affects you personally and you feel an emotional need to hit back.

All that being said, which group sounds more like they're projecting their feelings about about Sonic when they discuss this game? Be honest.


 

 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

3 minutes ago, Jake_LeOFFICIAL said:

This looks to be once you start to explore the island....as stated in the tweet.

And your point with that tone is?

[Shiny Gems]

You know, about the reusing assets thing, other games still do it. Now, to go further, let me bring up a web series called Death Battle, where they pit fictional characters, normally from different franchises, against each other to the death. Now, early this season, Jinx from League of Legends defeated DC's Harley Quinn, making her the first non-Marvel Comics character to beat a DC character in Death Battle. Yet some people were saying along the lines of it not counting because it was not a powerful character from DC Comics like Superman. The fact was, though, even as a less powerful character, Harley was still from DC Comics, and she lost to a non-Marvel character. Simple as that. Some people just try to set the bar higher to make things look insignificant, especially if they don't want to accept things.

The same, I am sure, is the case for Sonic and other franchises reusing old things. Other games still have reused old things, no matter what circumstances were behind it or how it was done compared to another franchise, no matter how one tries to twist it. Sonic should not be an exception and an offender to any of this.

[KHCast]

2 minutes ago, MightyGems said:

Other games still have reused old things, no matter what circumstances were behind it or how it was done compared to another franchise, no matter how one tries to twist it. Sonic should not be an exception and an offender to any of this.

“The context/execution doesn’t matter” is certainly one way to defend your favorite series from criticism I guess 

[Shiny Gems]

2 minutes ago, KHCast said:

“The context/execution doesn’t matter” is certainly one way to defend your favorite series from criticism I guess 

Eh, I don't think many would care outside from some dedicated, hardcore or whatever fans anyway, so I don't think it will be a big deal to many in the end.

[KHCast]

2 minutes ago, MightyGems said:

Eh, I don't think many would care outside from a few dedicated, hardcore or whatever fans anyway, so I don't think it will be a big deal to many in the end.

We’re not talking about other people here, this was YOUR point you were making about how it’s “unfair” sonic is getting focused on here because other games do it too and how context shouldn’t matter 

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, KHCast said:

We’re not talking about other people here, this was YOUR point you were making about how it’s “unfair” sonic is getting focused on here because other games do it too and how context shouldn’t matter 

Then I should have brought that up in my initial post; the other people; because that, in a way, was important, considering not many outside of some of us are going to complain about the same thing anyway, and don't use things like "they changed the mechanics for a reused boss for one game" and such to complain about the comparisons.

But, in case you do want to talk about me, I do think it is unfair because I do think some people go to extremes, sometimes unnecessary ones, to try to disprove things like the comparisons.

[Soniman]

12 minutes ago, KHCast said:

“The context/execution doesn’t matter” is certainly one way to defend your favorite series from criticism I guess 

Also “whataboutism” which effectively just serves as a means to shut down discussion in general 

[light-gaia]

42 minutes ago, KHCast said:

@light-gaia I’ve been also seeing people share both that post and this one, so I’m not sure 

But when it comes to 2D Mario, the first meme still make sense

32 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Whispy Woods is on the level of GHZ returning as a stage theme at most. Yes, you fight a tree as an early boss in a lot of Kirby games. But, especially in later games, they actually change the mechanics of the fights, they don't simply change the graphics. You can't honestly say a boss like Clanky Woods is the same fight as in Kirby's Dream Land, or any of the other Wispy Woods-type fights. Clanky has whole new attacks and movement in a whole new arena, it's a new fight. The problem with Frontiers that's sparked this whole discussion isn't merely that it's reusing GHZ and CPZ and SSZ as settings, it's that it's lifting level design straight from previous levels. There's no new substance to it, it's almost exactly the same experience we've already been through, and where it's different it's largely because they've been stripped down to be even shorter and more shallow than the originals. It's not an equal comparison.

Ok, I can understand that. However, before we saw the level design, people were saying the reused aesthetics were something unacceptable. And some people even said in this thread (some pages ago) that Nintendo doesn't usually do this kind of thing (even though there are a lot of examples of that). So, now you are saying the only thing that matters is the level design?

Reusing old aesthetics in every entry is bad in both Sonic, Mario and Kirby, or it's not. I don't think it makes sense to say it's okay when Kirby and Mario does, but not okay when Sonic does.

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, light-gaia said:

But when it comes to 2D Mario, the first meme still make sense

Ok, I can understand that. However, before we saw the level design, people were saying the reused aesthetics were something unacceptable. And some people even said in this thread (some pages ago) that Nintendo doesn't usually do this kind of thing (even though there are a lot of examples of that). So, now you are saying the only thing that matters is the level design?

Reusing old aesthetics in every entry is bad in both Sonic, Mario and Kirby, or it's not. I don't think it makes sense to say it's okay when Kirby and Mario does, but not okay when Sonic does.

I agree. No matter what personal preferences or standards as to what makes reusing things okay, a lot of it is still personal. I don't think it makes sense for Sonic to be treated differently in that regard just because someone has a different definition of reusing things, especially if that someone is supposed to be a fan of Sonic.

[light-gaia]

When it comes to my opinion, I think reusing old zones is bad in any of those franchises. But I think it could be a minor issue in Frontiers depending on how many cyberspaces there are and the importance of cyberspace in the whole experience

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, light-gaia said:

When it comes to my opinion, I think reusing old zones is bad in any of those franchises. But I think it could be a minor issue in Frontiers depending on how many cyberspaces there are and the importance of cyberspace in the whole experience

You know, I think Sonic Team should do a new non-anniversary Sonic game within the next five years so we are more likely to not have these discussions about reused assets, as they are likely to use a lot more, or all new stuff.

[Razule]

6 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

Ok, I can understand that. However, before we saw the level design, people were saying the reused aesthetics were something unacceptable. And some people even said in this thread (some pages ago) that Nintendo doesn't usually do this kind of thing (even though there are a lot of examples of that). So, now you are saying the only thing that matters is the level design?

It's a concession. People who are against it begrudgingly accepted that the level aesthetics were being reused, but I don't think anyone was actually expecting them to use wholesale layouts. Because it's like.. a bare minimum thing. We've hit a new low.

[KHCast]

1 minute ago, MightyGems said:

I don't think it makes sense for Sonic to be treated differently in that regard just because someone has a different definition of reusing things

That’s kinda how opinions work? People have a different definitions and interpretations of things all the time when it comes to gaming. Again, context matters. Mindlessly putting everything in a vacuum to downplay criticism and tell people they’re being unreasonable is ridiculous

[light-gaia]

13 minutes ago, Razule said:

It's a concession. People who are against it begrudgingly accepted that the level aesthetics were being reused, but I don't think anyone was actually expecting them to use wholesale layouts. Because it's like.. a bare minimum thing. We've hit a new low.

Yeah, that's true. I'm not going to disagree with that. But as I said before, depending on the context this could still work. Using the same speculation I used before: it's possible that they designed new levels, but reused old layouts as well to increase the number of available cyberspace levels. Considering the cyberspace is the equivalent as Botw shrines and Frontiers is a longer game compared to other boost games.

Other thing is, some people are not bothering that much about the reused content in the cyberspace levels because they are more interested in the open-zones. So, I don't think it's fair to say everyone who doesn't see the cyberspace as a big issue is being blind or whatever

13 minutes ago, KHCast said:

That’s kinda how opinions work? People have a different definitions and interpretations of things all the time when it comes to gaming. Again, context matters. Mindlessly putting everything in a vacuum to downplay criticism and tell people they’re being unreasonable is ridiculous

Yeah, but opinion can still be incoherent when the person who is firmly arguing about something in a Sonic game defends the same sort of thing in other franchises they are a fan of. Unless the person provides a very good definition. But I haven't seen a good definition or excuse to say why reusing aesthetics, animation, and other assets is not a problem in New Super Mario Bros series (for example), but it's a problem in Frontiers. People talked about reusing level design, and I agree, but not long ago reusing aesthetics was also a problem.

[Zaysho]

10 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

Yeah, but opinion can still be incoherent when the person who is firmly arguing about something in a Sonic game defends the same sort of thing in other franchises they are a fan of. Unless the person provides a very good definition. But I haven't seen a good definition or excuse to say why reusing aesthetics, animation, and other assets is not a problem in New Super Mario Bros series (for example), but it's a problem in Frontiers. People talked about reusing level design, and I agree, but not long ago reusing aesthetics was also a problem.

Because no one was defending NSMB's aesthetics and I would like it if you stopped pretending this is some smoking gun you have to expose people's hypocrisy for criticizing the way Sonic does it.

[Starnik]

I hope people stop buying the games if they’re unhappy with Frontiers. The constant whining year after year could have ended a long time ago. Stop supporting the games if you think they’re trash. All your going to do is make yourself more upset, and continuing the cycle. It’s so embarrassing watching Sonic “fans” continue to inflict pain on themselves for nothing. How long are you just going to go through the motions? Do you enjoy being unhappy? 

[KHCast]

1 minute ago, Starnik said:

I hope people stop buying the games if they’re unhappy with Frontiers. The constant whining year after year could have ended a long time ago. Stop supporting the games if you think they’re trash. All your going to do is make yourself more upset, and continuing the cycle. It’s so embarrassing watching Sonic “fans” continue to inflict pain on themselves for nothing. How long are you just going to go through the motions? Do you enjoy being unhappy? 

What’s embarrassing is constantly implying people criticizing certain aspects of the franchise and not being a fan of the current direction aren’t real fans, by constantly putting the term in quotation marks. 

[Starnik]

Just now, KHCast said:

What’s embarrassing is constantly implying people criticizing certain aspects of the franchise and not being a fan of the current direction aren’t real fans, by constantly putting the term in quotation marks. 

I put it in quotes because they don’t like the games from Sonic Team. Nothing more. 

[Iko]

I'm starting to think that the beginning of the Windmill Isle/Sky Sanctuary level being a bit different compared to the original is mostly accidental, not something done on purpose by design.

Probably they recreated the section without having the model of the original level as a reference, and so it came out different in proportions.

All the other levels don't even try, they are just 1:1 copies.

The city level seems to be the only one with an original layout so far, but I don't exclude that there's a game that we overlooked where the layout comes from (it has a deja-vu vibe as I said earlier).

At least I hope that they will credit the original level designers they copied the layouts from, in case they didin't work on the game directly.

[StaticMania]

Amazing.

I just found out that things you like may often do things you don't like.