Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[light-gaia]

I don't think people were in denial before Sonic Forces' release. I was one of the people who though Sunset Heights was probably the first level of the game because of how short and basic it was, based on the first Forces gameplay footage. That's because we have levels with similar length and complexity in the beginning of games like Unleashed as well.

When the game finally came out, we realized most of the stages were like that and Sunset Heights was actually a level in the middle of the campaign. So, that's a problem. That doesn't mean people who thought it could be just the first tutorial level weren't being reasonable with their conclusions.

A lot of things can and cannot be an issue depending on the context, and the way Sega is showing us the game right now is with very little context. I don't think it makes sense to discredit people with different points of view just because in some situations, the worst-case scenario is what ends up happening.

Sunset Heights being the first Forces level would be fine, Sunset Heights being a level in the middle of the game and most levels having a similar length and complexity is not. The same way, the reuse of old stuff could work in some context.

I've never said I'm ok with reusing old levels. I said there was a chance that it was only the first tutorial level that reused an old layout. And I said if that were the case, it would be fine by me.

Now we have more gameplay, it's confirmed that it's not only the tutorial level that reuses old layouts. But that doesn't mean my point wasn't reasonable with the amount of gameplay and evidence we previously we had.

[LegoFedora]

I really hope this is on topic enough, if not then I'll move this somewhere else or just let it delete I don't know. But I think there's a bigger problem with Sonic Team that no one really calls out, more specifically a certain game is at fault here. Frontiers is the ultimate culmination of it all.

The stages copying levels down to the level design itself is just the next evolutionary step that Generations started, and the more info that gets revealed about this game the more I despise Generations. Ever since Generations dropped, we have had one (1) sonic game that actually tried to be it's own unique thing with very few borrowed elements (that being Lost World, for as generic as it ended up being). Everything else? Repeats.

Green Hill. Chemical Plant.  Forces, Mania, Generations, even Team Sonic Racing. Yes, I am counting the spinoffs as part of the problem. Why? Because even the old racing spinoffs like riders at least tried to have it's own setting and world different than what we saw in the games. Even the critically acclaimed games like Mania borrowed a massive chunk of it's content from games we've already seen before. Press Garden's ice machine gimmick? Ice cap. Titanic monarchs orbs that you have to time jump off of? Sonic 3s checkpoint minigames. Used in new ways sure, but it's still shit we've seen before.

Frontiers is trying to be unique with it's open world aspect, but that doesn't erase the problem Sonic Team has with constantly reusing what they've already done. Cyberspace being a small part of the game means absolutely nothing, and is not a defense. We know they're capable of making new zones within frontiers, we've seen it with the new highway stage and the seemingly new assets created for Chemical Plant. This isn't a budget issue, this is Sonic Team being scared to break the trend that Generations started.

I don't blame sega, and I don't even blame sonic team for reusing content. Clearly, it works because people are still moving goalposts in a vain attempt to defend them, and this game will probably sell well like Forces did. I blame the success of Generations for why this franchise is like it is. Even when the trashfire of 06 released, we still got original ideas and very few retrains afterwards (Unleashed, Colors, Storybook games). When Generations released Sonic Team realized nostalgia sells, and they refuse to step out of that nostalgia comfort zone now. I now legitimately believe Generations was probably the worst thing to happen to this franchise, ever.

Generations doomed the future of this franchise, and we allowed it. Frontiers is us reaping what we sowed.

[light-gaia]

1 minute ago, LegoFedora said:

I really hope this is on topic enough, if not then I'll move this somewhere else or just let it delete I don't know. But I think there's a bigger problem with Sonic Team that no one really calls out, more specifically a certain game is at fault here. Frontiers is the ultimate culmination of it all.

The stages copying levels down to the level design itself is just the next evolutionary step that Generations started, and the more info that gets revealed about this game the more I despise Generations. Ever since Generations dropped, we have had one (1) sonic game that actually tried to be it's own unique thing with very few borrowed elements (that being Lost World, for as generic as it ended up being). Everything else? Repeats.

Green Hill. Chemical Plant.  Forces, Mania, Generations, even Team Sonic Racing. Yes, I am counting the spinoffs as part of the problem. Why? Because even the old racing spinoffs like riders at least tried to have it's own setting and world different than what we saw in the games. Even the critically acclaimed games like Mania borrowed a massive chunk of it's content from games we've already seen before. Press Garden's ice machine gimmick? Ice cap. Titanic monarchs orbs that you have to time jump off of? Sonic 3s checkpoint minigames. Used in new ways sure, but it's still shit we've seen before.

Frontiers is trying to be unique with it's open world aspect, but that doesn't erase the problem Sonic Team has with constantly reusing what they've already done. Cyberspace being a small part of the game means absolutely nothing, and is not a defense. We know they're capable of making new zones within frontiers, we've seen it with the new highway stage and the seemingly new assets created for Chemical Plant. This isn't a budget issue, this is Sonic Team being scared to break the trend that Generations started.

I don't blame sega, and I don't even blame sonic team for reusing content. Clearly, it works because people are still moving goalposts in a vain attempt to defend them, and this game will probably sell well like Forces did. I blame the success of Generations for why this franchise is like it is. Even when the trashfire of 06 released, we still got original ideas and very few retrains afterwards (Unleashed, Colors, Storybook games). When Generations released Sonic Team realized nostalgia sells, and they refuse to step out of that nostalgia comfort zone now. I now legitimately believe Generations was probably the worst thing to happen to this franchise, ever.

Generations doomed the future of this franchise, and we allowed it. Frontiers is us reaping what we sowed.

Team Sonic Racing is more like a Mario Kart game than like a Sonic Riders game, and that kind of reusing old themes is cool. I love what they did with TSR. The only issue I have is the returning tracks from previous games. But tracks inspired by Rooftop Run and Planet Wisp were incredible.

We only had two games after Generations, Lost World and Forces. And only Forces actually reuse a lot of stuff. Sonic Lost World is very traditional and generic, but it has a different art style compared to past games and a totally new gameplay formula.

I think the trend of relying too much on nostalgia instead of doing new things definitely started with Generations, but I think the real issue started with Forces. Generations had a very basic story, but they were very creative recreating the old levels.

[KHCast]

6 hours ago, light-gaia said:

It's also not the "real" game either because Takashi Iizuka confirmed it's possible to beat the game without going to cyberspace

The point made was that because of the fact the “main” game is untraditional from sonic, there’s a larger focus on the bits that ARE more familiar to what people expect from a sonic experience. No one’s saying this is the main chunk of the game (however whether it’s a small section of the game or not, it’s part of the game and the experience, and thus criticism is valid regardless)

[DaBigJ]

9 minutes ago, LegoFedora said:

Ever since Generations dropped, we have had one (1) sonic game that actually tried to be it's own unique thing with very few borrowed elements (that being Lost World, for as generic as it ended up being). Everything else? Repeats.

Even with Lost World, it's clearly wanting to evoke that feeling of nostalgia with stuff like the Casino Night Esq slot machines. 

Also, the number is technically four if you count Sonic Boom's games (but I rather not.@

[light-gaia]

6 minutes ago, KHCast said:

The point made was that because of the fact the “main” game is untraditional from sonic, there’s a larger focus on the bits that ARE more familiar to what people expect from a sonic experience. No one’s saying this is the main chunk of the game (however whether it’s a small section of the game or not, it’s part of the game and the experience, and thus criticism is valid regardless)

I was not saying criticism is invalid. I was only pointing out that it's confirmed information that the main focus of the game is the open-zone experience because some people were speculating the cyberspace levels were the "real game". Sonic Team even said "the open-zone is Sonic Frontiers' secret weapon" in the IGN interview

[DaBigJ]

If it feels like a lot of people are focusing heavily on Cyberspace, it's because it's the most meat we currently have. It's the thing people are spreading the most, and, in my opinion at least, it's the most interesting thing currently. Mainly due to how tacky they feel. 

This thread perfectly explains why people are tired of the reused bullshit. SEGA has been relying so heavily on locals like Green Hill for eleven years at this point, and the fact that not even games with new ideas can't escape this trend is fucking embarrassing.

[KHCast]

2 hours ago, mudhtt said:

And also…

 *Older levels are returning*
 "Stop complaining guys it’s just Sonic’s memories so of course they’re reusing stages! And besides they won’t reuse the same level design"

*Tutorial stage is 1:1 with Unleashed’s tutorial* 

"It’s just the tutorial who cares! They aren’t going to do it for all the stages"

*Multiple stages got older level design*
"It’s not a big deal, cyberspace don’t matter…"

I’m also tired of being told that basic fucking expectations like having new levels in a new game is me being unreasonable/expecting a perfect game lol (but that’s mostly a Twitter thing)

I definitely remember seeing a lot of big influencer Sonic fans on social media (won’t say who) who were hyping this game up, go from saying stuff like “well, if the cyberspace levels are mostly older levels then yeah I think people are reasonable to get annoyed” when sky sanctuary first got leaked, to now excusing and downplaying the level design reuse and go “well as long as it’s not like most of the stages, reusing the level design isn’t a big problem” Like the goal posts getting shifted whenever the criticism becomes legit 

[LegoFedora]

15 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

Team Sonic Racing is more like a Mario Kart game than like a Sonic Riders game, and that kind of reusing old themes is cool. I love what they did with TSR. The only issue I have is the returning tracks from previous games. But tracks inspired by Rooftop Run and Planet Wisp were incredible.

We only had two games after Generations, Lost World and Forces. And only Forces actually reuse a lot of stuff. Sonic Lost World is very traditional and generic, but it has a different art style compared to past games and a totally new gameplay formula.

I think the trend of relying too much on nostalgia instead of doing new things definitely started with Generations, but I think the real issue started with Forces. Generations had a very basic story, but they were very creative recreating the old levels.

I love TSR as well, but it's still tiring to see them reuse ideas AGAIN. They had a formula with riders as the Mario Kart answer, why leave it behind?

Forces was definitely when it was at its worst for sure, but Generations success led to that point. I'm not saying gens is bad or it's success isn't warranted, I love gens as much as the next guy but it snowballed into a problem we're still arguing about a decade later.

12 minutes ago, Jake_LeOFFICIAL said:

Even with Lost World, it's clearly wanting to evoke that feeling of nostalgia with stuff like the Casino Night Esq slot machines. 

Also, the number is technically four if you count Sonic Boom's games (but I rather not.@

I admittedly compete forgot about boom when typing this, but boom wasn't really a sonic team thing so idk if it would fit or not despite needing their approval for stuff I'm sure. 

[Starnik]

24 minutes ago, LegoFedora said:

I really hope this is on topic enough, if not then I'll move this somewhere else or just let it delete I don't know. But I think there's a bigger problem with Sonic Team that no one really calls out, more specifically a certain game is at fault here. Frontiers is the ultimate culmination of it all.

The stages copying levels down to the level design itself is just the next evolutionary step that Generations started, and the more info that gets revealed about this game the more I despise Generations. Ever since Generations dropped, we have had one (1) sonic game that actually tried to be it's own unique thing with very few borrowed elements (that being Lost World, for as generic as it ended up being). Everything else? Repeats.

Green Hill. Chemical Plant.  Forces, Mania, Generations, even Team Sonic Racing. Yes, I am counting the spinoffs as part of the problem. Why? Because even the old racing spinoffs like riders at least tried to have it's own setting and world different than what we saw in the games. Even the critically acclaimed games like Mania borrowed a massive chunk of it's content from games we've already seen before. Press Garden's ice machine gimmick? Ice cap. Titanic monarchs orbs that you have to time jump off of? Sonic 3s checkpoint minigames. Used in new ways sure, but it's still shit we've seen before.

Frontiers is trying to be unique with it's open world aspect, but that doesn't erase the problem Sonic Team has with constantly reusing what they've already done. Cyberspace being a small part of the game means absolutely nothing, and is not a defense. We know they're capable of making new zones within frontiers, we've seen it with the new highway stage and the seemingly new assets created for Chemical Plant. This isn't a budget issue, this is Sonic Team being scared to break the trend that Generations started.

I don't blame sega, and I don't even blame sonic team for reusing content. Clearly, it works because people are still moving goalposts in a vain attempt to defend them, and this game will probably sell well like Forces did. I blame the success of Generations for why this franchise is like it is. Even when the trashfire of 06 released, we still got original ideas and very few retrains afterwards (Unleashed, Colors, Storybook games). When Generations released Sonic Team realized nostalgia sells, and they refuse to step out of that nostalgia comfort zone now. I now legitimately believe Generations was probably the worst thing to happen to this franchise, ever.

Generations doomed the future of this franchise, and we allowed it. Frontiers is us reaping what we sowed.

I don’t understand this criticism. Usually when a game reviews well, it’s a good idea to attempt to build off that game. Colors got good reviews. It makes sense to use that game’s lessons in future titles.

 

In the early 2000s Sonic was getting poor reviews for the 3D titles. It makes sense to move away from whatever elements people expressed dislike for. Once you find something that works, wouldn’t you continue to use it? People complain about Sonic Team being incompetent. But they are reacting and responding to criticisms. That’s not a dumb thing to do. By iterating on ideas, they can also polish and remix them. 

[LegoFedora]

1 minute ago, Starnik said:

I don’t understand this criticism. Usually when a game reviews well, it’s a good idea to attempt to build off that game. Colors got good reviews. It makes sense to use that game’s lessons in future titles.

In the early 2000s Sonic was getting poor reviews for the 3D titles. It makes sense to move away from whatever elements people expressed dislike for. Once you find something that works, wouldn’t you continue to use it? People complain about Sonic Team being incompetent. But they are reacting and responding to criticisms. That’s not a dumb thing to do. By iterating on ideas, they can also polish and remix them. 

It's just annoying that nostalgia is the one thing that's constant in a series that's constantly reinventing itself and trying something new every time you look away. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is they learned the wrong thing from gens.

[Razule]

Nah, it made sense to build off Generations. Problem is they took the wrong lessons from it. That people really, really like old stages, especially the ones that were in Generations. Over and over again.

I don't think anyone on this Earth said they wanted levels to be designed more like they were in Generations after Forces and meant literally take those levels and put a new coat of paint so it's harder to tell.

[Starnik]

2 minutes ago, LegoFedora said:

It's just annoying that nostalgia is the one thing that's constant in a series that's constantly reinventing itself and trying something new every time you look away. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is they learned the wrong thing from gens.

I think that “nostalgia” your talking about was just Sonic Team trying to refocus or define the brand after the confusing early 2000s. But I can understand why it can be annoying.

3 minutes ago, Razule said:

Nah, it made sense to build off Generations. Problem is they took the wrong lessons from it. That people really, really like old stages, especially the ones that were in Generations. Over and over again.

What lessons do you think were the right lessons to learn? If people expressed they liked the use of older stages, Sonic Team would be seen as dumb for not doing exactly that. 

[light-gaia]

Sonic Colors was a very original Sonic game. Every single Colors world has a totally different setting compared to past games. In my opinion, Colors was the last iconic Sonic game. Maybe Colors started the trend of games with a lower scope, bad storytelling, easy as hell and that last only 2 hours to be finished? Yes, but I don't think it's the start of the trend of reusing old stuff.

When it comes to Generations, the classic levels didn't have a 3D equivalent, so they designed everything from scratch. The also designed the classic versions of Adventure/Modern games from scratch. They were very creative in the way they translated the aesthetics to 3D. Generations Green Hill looks way different from Sonic 1 Green Hill. It looks more natural and photorealistic. They add a lot of elements to the stages and the way they reference iconic sections of these stages were incredible.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Generations because I would rather have a 100% unique game at that point, even if the nostalgia had a very good justification. However, I don't think it makes sense to compare Frontiers' situation to Generations.

Colors had iconic settings, music, it also had the wisps (that was a new thing at that time). Generations brought classic Sonic back after a lot of years, it was a fresh idea, and they recreated iconic levels and moments in a very creative way.

The game that started the trend of copying and pasting past games without a good justification was Forces. Forces barely has anything new. All the bosses are reused ideas, it reused Green Hill, Chemical Plant, etc again, it reuses some Colors gimmicks, etc. It has some new settings, but they are so little compared to the amount of reused ideas.

13 minutes ago, Starnik said:

I don’t understand this criticism. Usually when a game reviews well, it’s a good idea to attempt to build off that game. Colors got good reviews. It makes sense to use that game’s lessons in future titles.

In the early 2000s Sonic was getting poor reviews for the 3D titles. It makes sense to move away from whatever elements people expressed dislike for. Once you find something that works, wouldn’t you continue to use it? People complain about Sonic Team being incompetent. But they are reacting and responding to criticisms. That’s not a dumb thing to do. By iterating on ideas, they can also polish and remix them. 

I think one of the problems was the lot of criticism was a little exaggerated. For example, people used to complain saying Sonic games didn't need to have stories. They should just be simple, like the "classic old days". And every single Sonic game, that attempted to have a story, was criticized. The best example is Sonic and the Black Knight. Nowadays, people praise the game for its story, but I remember back in the day the whole internet saying everything about this game was stupid (even the story).

I think some of these criticisms were not good for the future of the series and partially lead the series to where we are today.

[Shiny Gems]

You know, not that this may relate to the reused stuff being in Frontiers or the memories thing, but I personally think it is good to have recurring locations like Green Hill in some way. Don't get me wrong, I do understand why it can be annoying, but recurring locations do give the world of a video game series some identity, unlike from the first Adventure game to Colors where everything was all new, not that new is bad in any way, of course; but I do think recurring locations, whether in the form of a level or cutscene place, I think it does make sense to reuse places in any game rather than coming up with new places all the time. Sure, new places do tend to add to world building, but since the cyberspace levels take place in Sonic's memories, I don't think it would matter much. I am saying that recurring locations may give a feel, or add some familiarity as well as "the sense you are in Sonic's world" in the case of Sonic, and recurring locations do help when Sonic games use more realistic environments to balance things out. Just look at how many recurring locations are in video games here.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecurringLocation

[KHCast]

10 minutes ago, Starnik said:

What lessons do you think were the right lessons to learn? If people expressed they liked the use of older stages, Sonic Team would be seen as dumb for not doing exactly that. 

Except the people who were saying that were by and large saying that in the CONTEXT of Gens and what it was. Not that they wanted all future games to follow suit. The actual things that people were wanting regarding things like the level design of that game being further fleshed out, fell on deaf ears basically. 
 

@MightyGems I think narratively having reoccurring locations makes sense when you’re wanting to do stuff like world building. Like if they, say had Rooftop Run as a narrative hub that the gang came to for story purposes , even if it weren’t in a playable sense. Like Castlevania games you constantly go to Draculas Castle, and Megaman games you go to Wily’s Fortress repeatedly, and in Kingdom Hearts games, you often return to certain worlds. Games do this all the time. Sonic however struggles to know the distinction between that, and just flagrant nostalgia pandering 

[light-gaia]

2 minutes ago, MightyGems said:

You know, not that this may relate to the reused stuff being in Frontiers or the memories thing, but I personally think it is good to have recurring locations like Green Hill in some way. Don't get me wrong, I do understand why it can be annoying, but recurring locations do give the world of a video game series some identity, unlike from the first Adventure game to Colors where everything was all new, not that new is bad in any way, of course; but I do think recurring locations, whether in the form of a level or cutscene place, I think it does make sense to reuse places in any game rather than coming up with new places all the time. Sure, new places do tend to add to world building, but since the cyberspace levels take place in Sonic's memories, I don't think it would matter much. I am saying that recurring locations may give a feel, or add some familiarity as well as "the sense you are in Sonic's world" in the case of Sonic, and recurring locations do help when Sonic games use more realistic environments to balance things out. Just look at how many recurring locations are in video games here.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecurringLocation

That's true, but there are so many locations that could be revisited. The way they reused old ideas feels like Sonic's world is only Green Hill and Chemical Plant. And it's a little weird that Green Hill still has the same Motobugs after Sonic saving it so many times.

One example of recurring locations I like is the Kingdom Hearts series. In Kingdom Header Dream Drop Distance, they revisited Traverse Town (a world from Kingdom Heart 1), but not only the town look a little different, we have access to new areas.

I would love to see old locations coming back in Sonic games. But locations like Station Square, some Unleashed town, or even Black Knight's dimension.

[Starnik]

12 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

Sonic Colors was a very original Sonic game. Every single Colors world has a totally different setting compared to past games. In my opinion, Colors was the last iconic Sonic game. Maybe Colors started the trend of games with a lower scope, bad storytelling, easy as hell and that last only 2 hours to be finished? Yes, but I don't think it's the start of the trend of reusing old stuff.

When it comes to Generations, the classic levels didn't have a 3D equivalent, so they designed everything from scratch. The also designed the classic versions of Adventure/Modern games from scratch. They were very creative in the way they translated the aesthetics to 3D. Generations Green Hill looks way different from Sonic 1 Green Hill. It looks more natural and photorealistic. They add a lot of elements to the stages and the way they reference iconic sections of these stages were incredible.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Generations because I would rather have a 100% unique game at that point, even if the nostalgia had a very good justification. However, I don't think it makes sense to compare Frontiers' situation to Generations.

Colors had iconic settings, music, it also had the wisps (that was a new thing at that time). Generations brought classic Sonic back after a lot of years, it was a fresh idea, and they recreated iconic levels and moments in a very creative way.

The game that started the trend of copying and pasting past games without a good justification was Forces. Forces barely has anything new. All the bosses are reused ideas, it reused Green Hill, Chemical Plant, etc again, it reuses some Colors gimmicks, etc. It has some new settings, but they are so little compared to the amount of reused ideas.

I think one of the problems was the lot of criticism was a little exaggerated. For example, people used to complain saying Sonic games didn't need to have stories. They should just be simple, like the "classic old days". And every single Sonic game, that attempted to have a story, was criticized. The best example is Sonic and the Black Knight. Nowadays, people praise the game for its story, but I remember back in the day the whole internet saying everything about this game was stupid (even the story).

I think some of these criticisms were not good for the future of the series and partially lead the series to where we are today.

You make a good point about exaggeration. I’ve seen people make very hyperbolic criticisms about Sonic. Sometimes it’s hard to even know what people actually want because of how melodramatic they’re being. Unfortunately Sonic Team can’t read minds, or make games for a niche group of people.

7 minutes ago, MightyGems said:

You know, not that this may relate to the reused stuff being in Frontiers or the memories thing, but I personally think it is good to have recurring locations like Green Hill in some way. Don't get me wrong, I do understand why it can be annoying, but recurring locations do give the world of a video game series some identity, unlike from the first Adventure game to Colors where everything was all new, not that new is bad in any way, of course; but I do think recurring locations, whether in the form of a level or cutscene place, I think it does make sense to reuse places in any game rather than coming up with new places all the time. Sure, new places do tend to add to world building, but since the cyberspace levels take place in Sonic's memories, I don't think it would matter much. I am saying that recurring locations may give a feel, or add some familiarity as well as "the sense you are in Sonic's world" in the case of Sonic, and recurring locations do help when Sonic games use more realistic environments to balance things out. Just look at how many recurring locations are in video games here.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecurringLocation

Yeah, if you think about the movie, everyone got really happy when they saw Green Hills in the trailer. If Green Hills was just one of many zones, and not something special, people wouldn’t have had that reaction. Green Hills is Sonic’s home in the minds of many people. If there is one thing people know about Sonic it’s Green Hills.

 

edit: Maybe the problem with Green Hills is more in execution rather than the idea itself? 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Starnik

[Shiny Gems]

Just now, light-gaia said:

That's true, but there are so many locations that could be revisited. The way they reused old ideas feels like Sonic's world is only Green Hill and Chemical Plant. And it's a little weird that Green Hill still has the same Motobugs after Sonic saving it so many times.

One example of recurring locations I like is the Kingdom Hearts series. In Kingdom Header Dream Drop Distance, they revisited Traverse Town (a world from Kingdom Heart 1), but not only the town look a little different, we have access to new areas.

I would love to see old locations coming back in Sonic games. But locations like Station Square, some Unleashed town, or even Black Knight's dimension.

Yeah, I was gonna get to the other locations part. Station Square from Sonic Advance would be a good place to revisit, would it not?

[light-gaia]

9 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Except the people who were saying that were by and large saying that in the CONTEXT of Gens and what it was. Not that they wanted all future games to follow suit. The actual things that people were wanting regarding things like the level design of that game being further fleshed out, fell on deaf ears basically. 

When everything you do that's not nostalgia is heavily criticized in a non-constructive way, people never emphasizing anything that could be kept in future games, and the only praised games are the ones that keep mimicking the past (specially Genesis era kind of past), the conclusion that all the people wanted from Sonic is becoming a stale franchise kinda makes sense.

4 minutes ago, Starnik said:

You make a good point about exaggeration. I’ve seen people make very hyperbolic criticisms about Sonic. Sometimes it’s hard to even know what people actually want because of how melodramatic they’re being. Unfortunately Sonic Team can’t read minds, or make games for a niche group of people.

Maybe if the fans (and the whole industry, actually) had provided more constructive criticism back in the day, we could have the best of both worlds (the best of games like Generations and Colors, and the best games like Sonic Unleashed, Black Knight and other dark age games)

[Shiny Gems]

This is probably not going to mean anything, or change anything, but if the cyberspace levels are in the form of Sonic's memories, and thus old levels, at least Sonic Frontiers still has new stuff, possibly more than old stuff that is the cyberspace levels. Sure, the cyberspace levels reusing old things may be still disappointing, but there is still plenty of new stuff in Sonic Frontiers like in the open zone areas, is there not?

[Starnik]

2 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

When everything you do that's not nostalgia is heavily criticized in a non-constructive way, people never emphasizing anything that could be kept in future games, and the only praised games are the ones that keep mimicking the past (specially Genesis era kind of past), the conclusion that all the people wanted from Sonic is becoming a stale franchise kinda makes sense.

On an individual level the fans may have an idea of they want. But as a group they are schizophrenic at best.
 

What usually happens is different groups of people (Classic fans vs Adventure fans for example), fight each other to try to become the dominant opinion. Since SEGA does listen, it makes the arguing worse because “winning” means SEGA will give you what you want. Or at least that’s how people feel.

 

[Shiny Gems]

You know, if they are using past games' assets, I would like to see a cyberspace version of the Death Egg. Sure, we saw that in Forces, but compared to Green Hill which has been used many times, one more time for the Death Egg wouldn't hurt, would it?

[light-gaia]

2 minutes ago, MightyGems said:

This is probably not going to mean anything, or change anything, but if the cyberspace levels are in the form of Sonic's memories, and thus old levels, at least Sonic Frontiers still has new stuff, possibly more than old stuff that is the cyberspace levels. Sure, the cyberspace levels reusing old things may be still disappointing, but there is still plenty of new stuff in Sonic Frontiers like in the open zone areas, is there not?

What makes me not bother that much about the cyberspace is:

• There is still that unknown city level that could be an entirely original stage, and that could be an evidence that we are getting more original cyberspace levels
• The fact that they confirmed we are getting 5 open-zones and I like the aesthetics of the second island. Each open-zone seems to be pretty huge, since they also confirmed we only saw a small chunk of the Kronos Island
• I like the enemy variety and that Titan boss looks cool as hell

It seems Sonic Frontiers has a lot of new ideas, but there's also this problem of the reused cyberspace levels. Maybe the cyberspace will be the werehog now.
 

3 minutes ago, Starnik said:

On an individual level the fans may have an idea of they want. But as a group they are schizophrenic at best.
 

What usually happens is different groups of people (Classic fans vs Adventure fans for example), fight each other to try to become the dominant opinion. Since SEGA does listen, it makes the arguing worse because “winning” means SEGA will give you what you want. Or at least that’s how people feel.

One problem is that the hyperbolic criticism didn't come only from fans, they also came from renowned portals. I think Sega care a lot more about what professional reviews have to say about Sonic than the fans

[Shiny Gems]

Just now, light-gaia said:

What makes me not bother that much about the cyberspace is:

• There is still that unknown city level that could be an entirely original stage, and that could be an evidence that we are getting more original cyberspace levels
• The fact that they confirmed we are getting 5 open-zones and I like the aesthetics of the second island. Each open-zone seems to be pretty huge, since they also confirmed we only saw a small chunk of the Kronos Island
• I like the enemy variety and that Titan boss looks cool as hell

It seems Sonic Frontiers has a lot of new ideas, but there's also this problem of the reused cyberspace levels. Maybe the cyberspace will be the werehog now.
 

One problem is that the hyperbolic criticism didn't come only from fans, they also came from renowned portals. I think Sega care a lot more about what professional reviews have to say about Sonic than the fans

Regardless, I can see cyberspace levels making up a smaller fraction of the game compared to everything else, especially since they are around 2 minutes in length, and the game is said to need 20-30 hours (If I heard right) to beat. I don't think cyberspace levels will be much of a problem as people make them out to be.